[NFP] Maya First Look

[PhilBowles]

I've been playing as Maya and didn't hit plantations - they have a very slow start because of the lack of housing until you can get builders, but I think we may have been looking at them the wrong way.

- Gold from farms is highly significant. I was getting 50 gold a turn before turn 80, from 5 cities. I suspect the Maya are actually a gold civ rather than a science civ, and they should be using gold to buy builders which they need in abundance.

- They're actually less restrictive in terms of terrain than other civs. I find it advantageous that every city can usefully have a campus, since they act a bit like Theater Squares - their adjacency is entirely linked to things you improve or build. They do have the problem that all those farms compete with space for districts you also want adjacent to the Observatory, and potentially with Wonders.

- I also have a query I haven't yet tested from the way the ability is worded. It seems that any city with the 'capital' trait can act as a hub - does that mean that captured city states and enemy capitals count for that purpose? It would make them feel a lot more Mayan if they could have several capitals from which control extends.

 

[kb27787]

F-tier civ when compared to Gran Colombia... basically I feel we go Pingala + culture per civ and OOC until feudalism. (and pray you do not get forward settled)

Otherwise having to spend 2 builder charges on 2 farms for each new city is painful!

I wonder who on earth was in charge of the balance team.

 

[Danthor]

And English speaking people who made the game, for a majority of players who speak English.

Which is also a thing aI disagree with, as I said. It is sad that you defend this dumbing down of the language, as it is not easy enough already.

If you have issues with the Spanish localization, that's an issue with the localization team, not Firaxis.

As i said, I fixed it already. And I have issues with the english , but you're so fixated on repeating "localization team" it's like talking to a wall.

wink wink wink

 

[bengalryan9]

Maya seems strong to me.

I think the early housing problem is a little overstated. You can certainly get away with training less units early to focus on squeezing out an extra builder or two - your units already have +5 bonus near your cities and if you are having trouble with barbarians you can slot a card to make that +10.

I didn't even build enough early farms to get the feudalism inspiration boost and I didn't face any housing problems, oddly enough.

 

[lotrmith]

Which is also a thing aI disagree with, as I said. It is sad that you defend this dumbing down of the language, as it is not easy enough already.




As i said, I fixed it already. And I have issues with the english , but you're so fixated on repeating "localization team" it's like talking to a wall.

wink wink wink

I'm surprised you're not pitching a fit that the civilizations themselves aren't given in their own native names: España, Россия, Deutschland, etc. It follows your same logic.

Maybe you could take your realization that this particular linguistic topic has reached its conclusion and disengage from it?

 

[PhilBowles]

F-tier civ when compared to Gran Colombia... basically I feel we go Pingala + culture per civ and OOC until feudalism. (and pray you do not get forward settled)

Otherwise having to spend 2 builder charges on 2 farms for each new city is painful!

I wonder who on earth was in charge of the balance team.

My strategy so far has been to produce settlers ASAP, since I can do with less pressure on housing anyway, and accept that I'll have a small capital at the start of the game. Your second etc. cities are going to be more productive than the capital anyway. Basically, I want to get my cities up ASAP to have the most building slots for settlers, observatories and other basic infrastructure - I'm slightly behind in settling my final available city spot (Antioch's sitting on one of them and I currently gain more value from keeping than invading it, and Medina is getting in the way of the 7th city spot I'd earmarked) thanks to repeated disasters hitting my capital and taking out my districts, but I should have my sixth 'core' city settled shortly after turn 100, and I'm starting to catch the AI up in science after a slow start.

The plan from then was to build a few units to move on Arabia (and eventually Antioch) while continuing to build Builders and districts. I called a halt to my last session after Arabia declared a not-very-surprising war which will prompt me to accelerate my unit production and give me an opportunity to remove Hattin and Medina from my core territory.

Essentially, if you go back that far, I'm playing the Maya the way I'd play Civs I through III - spam settlers as often as you have the population to do so, since the sooner you get each city established the longer it has to develop, and spam farms. The main difference being the constraint imposed by builder charges, and the fact that you'll want to do a lot of chopping as the Maya, both to get out early Settlers from a capital hovering at 2-3 pop and to harvest wheat/rice to grow your cities.

 

[Danthor]

I'm surprised you're not pitching a fit that the civilizations themselves aren't given in their own native names: España, Россия, Deutschland, etc. It follows your same logic.

I'm not really surprised that you're surprised. It is very common to translate country/civs names. Not so much with given names; actually, it is quite rare, so I don't see what "logic" you are referring to.
I grant you that it would be quite cool if they kept their own names (but the Civ names, not the country names you listed).

Maybe you could take your realization that this particular linguistic topic has reached its conclusion and disengage from it?

Maybe... or maybe you can meddle in with some proper logical arguments?

 

[ferretbacon]

I just won as the Maya on Emperor difficulty. Got a very nice start with lots of plantations (which I boosted with the +1 culture pantheon) and finding Paititi nearby (so close that the city I put next to it was still within the 6 tile range of my capital). Housing wasn't a huge issue. I just made sure to built a few more farms than usual and picked the audience chamber for the extra housing. Having only six cities for most of the game meant that I could get a governor in the majority of those.

Of course, I was awash in science, but Paititi gave me lots of gold and culture as well. I managed to ring my capital with five cities, then ran out of room due to England and Poland. Mid game was a bit of a slump due to poor production (my lands were relatively flat) and the fact that aside from horses and iron, I had no strategic resources until uranium, so I was unable to fill out my military even though I had a good tech lead.

Once I industrialized and got a couple of nuclear plants online (energy was very efficient due to the tightness of my empire), I ended up running away with the game. I actually had to vote for myself to lose diplomatic points to avoid bumbling into a diplomatic victory. My observatories were looking at the stars since 3000 B.C. I was going to win a science victory or bust.

Overall impression: pretty strong, even if I hadn't been lucky with the plantation resources and Paititi. Definitely not a beginner civ, though. It was more of a challenge than the comparable Korea, for example.

 

[Morningcalm]

I'm surprised you're not pitching a fit that the civilizations themselves aren't given in their own native names: España, Россия, Deutschland, etc. It follows your same logic.

Maybe you could take your realization that this particular linguistic topic has reached its conclusion and disengage from it?

Hear, hear! At some point one must use the common appellations for a country befitting the majority audience, even if they are not, in the view of some vocal dissenters, not 100% the "best" term to use (which is subjective ultimately anyway). The rest is semantics and little to do with the game, and I think our point on this has been clear.

I think the outry from Danthor as to Lady Six Sky's name is much ado about a molehill. If Danthor doesn't like the name, voicing an opinion on the same is fine, but beyond that there is little to be done as the naming decision for the game has been made already by archaeologists and Firaxis alike.

ANYWAY, as to Maya gameplay: quite fun! The challenge of nesting cities close to luxuries within 6 tiles of a capital has proven quite fun, and has gotten me to enjoy city-planning more. As for Maya, I think important districts other than the observatories are dams (especially on Apocalypse mode), and commercial districts. I found encampments to be useful since the barracks and stables grant housing as well (and far ahead of neighborhoods at that). What are other's strategies to grow Maya cities fast without hitting a housing ceiling?

For a fun video showing Maya in Apocalypse mode on Deity where the game reached the final stage of comet strikes, see Potato McWhiskey's video at this link:

 

[Sostratus]

They do have the problem that all those farms compete with space for districts you also want adjacent to the Observatory, and potentially with Wonders

Well, for the farms in particular, it's not so dire since the 3 key things mayan farms give have alternates that make farms strategically flexible:
Adjacency: any district can replace a farm and give the same 0.5 boost. (Granted subject to rounding rules.) It's a lot cheaper to setup some farms before you are able to put down districts, though.
Housing: Neighborhoods & Aqueducts have vastly higher housing density, so they are a straight upgrade here if you need it. It's a lot cheaper to setup some farms before you are able to put down those, though.
Gold: Free money. But CHs have much better gold density, so they are a straight upgrade here if you need it. It's a lot cheaper to setup some farms before...

You get the point, but they are really flexible.

Gold from farms is highly significant.

I called this like 40 pages ago in this thread:

That, and people are really sleeping on FARM GOLD. We are talking about money, straight from the freaking ground.

Only downside is it seems like with maize in the game it's easier to roll a non plantation start in favor of a maize start now and then. But ofc if you get a banana patch nearby it's over.

 

[nauberry]

I just finished a game with the Maya. The game settings were as I usually do: Map, continents and islands, 22 civs, game speed epic, deity.

My aim was to put Pingala to use. My start was very rough and I was immediately declared war by Spain and soon after by Japan. The Hul'che were able to save me, they are a great unit. I managed to capture a couple good cities that were in the 6-tile range radius and razed one that I wanted to relocate. After getting through the early game, I started my plan of growing my capital to as big as possible. I used all trade routes from that one city whit all the good policies that boost trade between allies etc. I even had singapore give me +2 production to all trade routes. In the end my civilization was able to produce huge amounts of science per turn. The capital itself contributed with over 200 science itself. I managed to win the game just a bit after the apocalypse started.

I don't know if this strategy was the most efficient one, but it was a different take on a typical deity game. It seems in some cases tall can be a useful way to play, in the hands of a fitting civilization.

Here are some screenshots in the end game.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

-edit added one more screenshot from a couple turns later where the insane city yields can be seen.

 

[kb27787]

My impression on Maya after my first deity win with them (a grind!)--they are basically a cheaper and weaker version of Mali. Mali gives up one mine production for 4 gold... Maya gives up getting to make mines altogether early on for extra 1 gold/farm (which is much worse). Basically you have to accept 20-30 turns for your new cities to build districts and work those stupid farm tiles (as if you don't work them, you don't get gold... and you need to make them!) Plantations are also good gold tiles too so you might as well resign yourself to buying stuff rather than building stuff. (Including buying builders... wanna see a builder take 10+ turns to produce because all your land is flat?).

Once you get some gold income, just buy a granary in a new city and make 3 grassland hill mines... there comes a point as to when I feel it is cheaper and better than 2 build charges. Of course, you will only grow to size 3 that way, but maybe you can get to size 4 eventually (half growth rate from size 3-4) then you finally get your 2nd district.

 

[Cerilis]

I have to be honest with you guys . . . "Farms Everywhere" feels good.

Certainly better than Forest Nothing.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

A lot of people seem to have finished their Maya games. If you're so inclined would you offer the difficulty, your victory, the turn timer, and the game speed? For example:

I won science on deity, turn 255 on standard speed,

A lot of people saying Maya are OP, or Maya are horrible, saying they got 30 pop cities (which rarely happens for me in.. any game) and so forth. None of these claims are really meaningful unless there is some context. If you get a pop 30 city on t450 that's really nice for you, bust most people have finished the game some 200 turns ago, if you get it on t150 that's insane and probably means Maya have some viable strategies.

If Great Plains would still existed, it would probably be an amazing map for the Maya.
But sadly looks like the Inca will remain my primary pick. They can shine under pretty adverse conditions, thanks to their universally useful terrace farms. With the Maya, meanwhile, I just had to re-roll three starts in a row because I just had awful terrain & resource placement.

qtf. give us back the plains. it was my most played map ever.

The primarily American and/or European audience that is into Civ games and knows about Civ is going to have a far easier time pronouncing and remembering Roosevelt's name than "Ix-Wak-Chan-ʼAjaw-Lem" or "Ix Wak Chan Ajaw" (two ways to say Lady Six Sky's name elsewise). Read any archaeological papers on her, they refer to her as Lady Six Sky as well. The name "Lady Six Sky" is a rendered translation of the Maya glyphs on stelae. If you want to take issue with Firaxis' rendering of the name, you'll probably find you have to be annoyed at a large number of scholars and archaeologists too. And it's not Firaxis wiped away her name anyway--you can see her Maya name in Civilopedia.

if you only end up pandering to that audience they'll never learn to pronounce anything out of their comfort zone anyway. I think this is such a non-argument. also, if a name is hard to pronounce, people usually just come up with a nickname in not too long 'a time.

personally I don't even dislike lady six sky, I think it is quite nice phonetically. it is however extremely arbitrary to translate one leaders name into english while keeping almost all the others as they were.

also, I just dislike the "dumbing down" stuff for American audiences in general. not just in relation to civ.

I think the outry from Danthor as to Lady Six Sky's name is much ado about a molehill.

Then maybe stop replying every single time he takes a breath? It's extremely irritating to see you repeat yourself for 2 pages straight.

Right? I found it not too difficult to up them from +4 too. People may yet revisit their opinions on Korea being "OP" perhaps. I do think the Maya are tricky to use if they start near the coast though.

Korea's status as an OP civ has long been questioned by some, personally I am not even sure if they're a top 3 science Civ. I am also unsure if the Seowon is even better than a regular campus. The more I play Korea, the less I think so. Half production cost is still a huge deal either way, irregardless of adjacency.

20/20 test load ups and 3 full games and I’ve had Maize on my capital in every single one, and it’s an oasis in a sea of jungle lol. Worked Maize is 3 food, 3 gold and 1.5 housing. (And a badly needed boost to irrigation).

I wouldn't work these tiles if someone forced me at gunpoint. I think a 2 food/2 hammer is better, as is a 3/1 or 1/3. It's a shame, but farms (and food!) really, really needs a buff. I am not exited about the tiles at all

 

[nauberry]

A lot of people seem to have finished their Maya games. If you're so inclined would you offer the difficulty, your victory, the turn timer, and the game speed? For example:

I don't know exactly when my capital hit 30 population, but it hit 25 pop on turn 244 (epic speed). It was around the time the world entered the industrial era. When I won the game (around t. 410) The capital had over 50 population.

edit: the difficulty was deity

 

[Loerwyn]

Science on... Prince, I think? Standard speed, turn 368, wasn't aiming for any particular goal but also came very close to diplo.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Thanks a lot people!

@nauberry that is some impressive growth, I've never even seen a city beyond 30 pop in any of my games, neither mine nor AIs. 25 pop in the industrial era is intense. great job there.

 

[nauberry]

Thanks a lot people!

@nauberry that is some impressive growth, I've never even seen a city beyond 30 pop in any of my games, neither mine nor AIs. 25 pop in the industrial era is intense. great job there.

The most growth I got was after getting democratic government. The + food and production combined with the policy wisselbanken (which also gives them) gave a huge amount of food. This is of course not specific to Maya, but the housing and amenities they got helped a ton.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The main difficulties to get such large cities is mostly food and housing and Maya get both from farms so they do have an advantage here, but other civs can do something similar or maybe even better in certain cases. I'm unsure on the choice of focus on the capital since I don't think Maya get bonus yields to it so you should focus on growing Another city for Pingala as the Maya, with luck it may also be on Another continent for continent cards.

 

[nauberry]

The main difficulties to get such large cities is mostly food and housing and Maya get both from farms so they do have an advantage here, but other civs can do something similar or maybe even better in certain cases. I'm unsure on the choice of focus on the capital since I don't think Maya get bonus yields to it so you should focus on growing Another city for Pingala as the Maya, with luck it may also be on Another continent for continent cards.

You are right. I realized it in the middle of growing my capital. Another city would have been even bigger probably. The capital was however the only city where I could build the temple of Artemis in the beginning.