MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[Sir Bugsy]

Next question:

If the answer is number two, (which I think is what smackster is saying) where to settle

I'm thinking either green dot or blue dot, depending on what I find under the fog. The only bad thing I see is no immediate fresh water in that area.

 

[Karasu]

Well, I did hesitate a lot before opting for the Granary. In fact, it is always a difficult trade-off, all the more when there are no clear good or bad spots around.

What one trades here is the turns passed with a single, pop-3 city against the ones spent with two pop-1 cities (or a similar situation). We will get a better production and a faster settler output later on -in this case I went for the Granary just because of the relatively low food potential of the area: the idea is that a Granary may be even more necessary to ensure faster pop recovery, since we will have to rely on Azuchi for quite a while.

The absence of an obvious settler factory location also made me think of something like a 'distributed' factory among two - three cities, that will alternate in the production of settlers, units and workers.

So, there is a logic behind this choice, but it may well prove less than optimal... You certainly raised a very interesting point, Smackster.

So, switching from Granary to Settler is still an option (just check whether we would loose too many shields), I would avoid going for a Barracks right now, though.

Regarding the Cow, I think Smackster is referring to the one 4 NW of our capital. No fresh water either, but closer and in the general direction of the Tokugawa.

 

[GenMarshall]

CivGeneral reporting in

 

[Sir Bugsy]

OK it really helps if one opens the game up and looks at the save.

Here's the area NW of our capitol.

I think smackster is right. I will change the granary to a settler...due next turn. Then barracks.
I'm thinking about settling at the red dot for the following reasons:

1. five BG's in our immediate 11 tile area. (the mined tile the worker is on is a BG also) so at pop 5 we can have 11spt before corruption.
2. The cow will give 3 fpt when irrigated (that's a lot of work to get water there)

I think the best we could do is a six-turn settler factory, building spear, settler.

Please team I need your thoughts.

Edit - Karasu and I cross posted. We would be right at 30 shields next turn in our capitol, but at pop 1.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Pre-flight checks (0) 3050 BC – Karasu was right Tokugawa is a snot. For the knowledge we have, he’ll give a pittance. For the knowledge he has, he wants everything we have, including all our gpt.

After much pondering, reading Karasu’s post, more pondering and several calculations. I make the following command decision – I leave the granary as it is for the following reasons:
1. If I switch to a settler, the pop will drop to one, and any subsequent build will be hampered by the lack of population.
2. The granary will be good to have in the capitol no matter what we’re building there.
3. At pop 4, we will be able to build a settler in four turns (8 spt, 3 extra fpt). In 10 turns we would be at pop 3 with a granary and a settler as opposed to being at two pop 1 cities with no improvements.

Soooo, I hit enter and Tokogawa’s warrior is heading directly at our city.

(1) 3000 BC – Move worker onto BG to mine then road. Southern warrior climbs a hill and sees the coast. No change on the diplomatic front. Firaxis score – 81

(2) – 2950 BC – Worker => mine. Explore. Diplo- nada.

(3) – 2900 BC – Western warrior has the northern boundary of Toku’s lands. Diplo-no change.

(4) – 2850 BC – Explore. Diplo check -

(5) – 2800 BC – MM Azuchi to grow in 2 turns and build the granary next turn. I didn’t figure this into my calculations, but it still works. Dip check – Yeah, he’s still a dip, but now he has Martial Arts.

IBT – Azuchi: Granary => Settler

(6) – 2750 BC – Cut into Toku’s lands to get to the other side. Dip check – nothing.

IBT – Get asked to leave.

(7) – 2710 BC – Azuchi grows. MM to grow in 4 and produce settler in 4. Lux to 20%, budget is break even.

IBT – See a Tokugawa settler pair run off to the NW of their capitol.

(8) – 2670 BC – Mine completes. Settler in now due in 2 ,grow in 3. MM again to do both in 3, gaining 1 gpt.

IBT – Toku city is founded north of our warrior.

(9) – 2630 BC – Explore.

(10) -2590 BC – Our western warrior has the coastline complete with squids.

IBT – Azuchi: Settler => Rax (obviously vetoable)

(11) – 2550 BC – Move work and settler towards new city site. – Firaxis score- 95

Here's a picture of our world

Daimyo's Swords of Power

 

[Sir Bugsy]

First, I hope I didn't mess the team up too badly. I tried to make the best judgments possible. I think with a barracks and a granary in the first two cities we can have two six-turn settler factories.

In spite of all the mountains, I think there are some decent city sites. One to the west along the river, a couple south in those mountain valleys like by the goats, SE by the cow, SSE by the lambs. I think this is very do-able. Hopefully we'll get some more contact soon.

Note: while I know what the big picture is map-wise. I tried to make decisions with our warriors that I would normally make. i.e. I followed the mountain chain to gain the widest possible view instead of bee-lining towards a location I remembered.

In hindsight, I should have tried to trade Tokugawa Martial Arts before he got it, but when he keeps offering 10G and that's all he has, it is hard to judge when it was going to come in for him. Hopefully, that wasn't too of a move.

 

[AlanH]

OK. I've got it. I've only loaded it as a sanity check, as I needed to ensure that my software was modded correctly, and I was concerned that the save file is not zipped. I recommend we zip the .SAV for upload in future if possible, as that gives us a protective checksum to avoid creating and perpetuating a corrupted file.

Doesn't look too great, does it! I'll have a good look around and try to play my ten before midnight GMT. I'll come back shortly if I need a team huddle before I start.

[EDIT] I cross-posted with Sir Bugsy. I didn't even start gotm24, so I have never seen this map, and it's all a mystery to me. Just a warning that I don't even have to pretend!

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I'll zip my saves in the future... Good luck Alan

 

[AlanH]

One quick question now I've had a small explore of the current state:

The cattle I thought you were talking about in the south east is in the same expanded city radius as a wine tile further east. Those two tiles with irrigation would produce five food per turn, and as there is also fresh water next to the wine, there's irrigation. There's one visible bonus grass, and with any luck there may also be additional shields under the fog to create a four turn factory.

Even if the shields aren't there, wasn't this a better bet than the one we are looking at currently? Or are you guys working on prior knowledge?

PS we'd need a temple, but they are cheap.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I didn't have prior knowledge of our local area. The only knowledge I have is of the general layout of where everyone is. I stopped playing the GOTM during the early IA when I was hopelessly behind in tech. When it comes time to send out a galley, I will ask you where to send it and then go in that direction. I feel that me making a decision like that would be cheating.

If you can find a good location for a settler factory, I'd go for it. What might be lost in the turns getting there will be gotten back with quicker settler production. The site to the north will only ever get 3 extra food in despotism.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
1. five BG's in our immediate 11 tile area. (the mined tile the worker is on is a BG also) so at pop 5 we can have 11spt before corruption.
2. The cow will give 3 fpt when irrigated (that's a lot of work to get water there)

Since water doesn't flow over hills, we'll lose one of those shields for an irrigated tile, unless we clear two forest tiles and irrigate in from the west.

If I settle where we stand now the irrigation is easier, and we get up and running faster. Any comments?

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I didn't have prior knowledge of our local area. The only knowledge I have is of the general layout of where everyone is. I stopped playing the GOTM during the early IA when I was hopelessly behind in tech. When it comes time to send out a galley, I will ask you where to send it and then go in that direction. I feel that me making a decision like that would be cheating.

Sorry, it wasn't meant as a criticism, I only wanted to make sure you all know my state of total ignorance

If you can find a good location for a settler factory, I'd go for it. What might be lost in the turns getting there will be gotten back with quicker settler production. The site to the north will only ever get 3 extra food in despotism.

I don't think I want to march over there now. I was thinking it might be a good place for our next settler to go, and it may affect what we decide to do with the two cities we have now.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Alan - I didn't take it as a criticism, plus I have a pretty tough skin, so criticize all you want. These things are a learning experience for me.

I like your idea of settling our new settler in place. I initially didn’t want to settle on the BG, but I guess that really doesn’t matter in this case. We have enough BG’s and between the hill and the BG, we’ll still lose a shield. Plus it will gain us the worker turns having to irrigate then mine.

Bugs

 

[smackster]

Way back 10 messages ago, my original thought was that we should not change the granary as we are too far along, just wanted to know how everyone would decide to do this, as I am never sure now. Would be interesting for somebody to play the first set of turns, and build the settler first to see how quickly we can get the first few cities built that way. Actually we probably need to wait a while (so as not to spoil anything) as that would only be a true test to see how quickly the second city granary and its first settler could be done if we build a settler before a granary in the first city.

I did play the whole of GOTM 24 but they way I played it I didn't even look at Japan, and didn't even know where Oda was, I may let you know about that after we finish.

I have no comments on the last moves as I have no time to look at it.

As I'm in the UK right now, can't follow Alan's moves (can when in the US) so will have to look at this tomorrow, but I'm already thinking about an extended lunch hour with Civ. Might be light on the report so that I can get the moves done. Otherwise I'm in Norway Wednesday and don't even know if I have the right modem connection (I don't usually travel like this, but its fun keeping up with the game while I do), what I do know is that I only have a light coat so glad its not December.

Smackster

 

[mad-bax]

AlanH: You are UP

I will post a table of comparative scores in the forst post of the thread. Be a little patient though please.

 

[AlanH]

Turn 0 2550 BC State of the Nation

Azachi has a granary and is building a barracks. It has lots of flexibility for varying shield and food production, and at pop 3 it is working fully improved tiles. We are researching Taoist Mysticism, playing to our religious head start, with slider at 2.6.2 for high speed. ETA is 17 turns. We have a settler in the north ready to build near the cattle. We have three regular warriors - a West explorer, an East explorer and an MP in Azachi.

I decided that if we are going to research fast we'd better go for it fully. Slider to 1.8.1, -1 gpt, Mysticism in 12 turns. Confirm ther are no deals available with Tokugawa, our only contact.

I decided to build where the settler is now standing, as this makes irrigation of the cattle tile easier. It's a bonus grass tile, but we'd lose the bonus anyway in order to connect the cow to water. Then it dawned on me: We have a four-turn settler farm. If this next city works the wheat plus the cattle it gets five fpt, and the bonus grass plus the wheat and cattle will supply enough shields.

Hit next turn.

IBT: A Tokugawa warrior moves onto the mountain south of West Warrior.

Turn 1 2510 BC

29 gold, Mysticism in 11 turns.

West warrior: Moves SE to hill as mountain is blocked. Sees dyes.
East Warrior moves NW.
Worker moves East to irrigate plains tile to get water to cattle.
Build Nagoya, start warrior.
With the slider at 1.8.1, we now break even with Mysticism in 10 turns.

IBT: Tokugawa warrior moves north off moountain.

Turn 2 2470 BC

29 gold, Mysticism in 9 turns.

West Warrior moves SW to mountain, sees wheat.
East Warrior moves N, sees two wool on hills.
Worker starts irrigating plains.
MM Azachi and Nagoya to produce more gold without sacrificing turns to complete.
Slider to 0.9.1, -1 gpt, Mysticism in 7 turns.
No change in Tokugawa's attitude.

Turn 3 2430 BC

28 gold, Mysticism in 6 turns.
West Warrior moves S off mountain.
East Warrior moves NW to mountain, sees more wool, a river and coast.
No change in Tokugawa's attitude.

IBT: Azuchi completes Barracks, starts Warrior. Pop grows to 4.

Turn 4 2390 BC
27 gold, Mysticism in 5 turns.
East Warrior moves N on mountain, sees barb camp on hills across the valley.
I've just realised there's a green border visible SE of current position. Must have missed it before, will head that way, avoiding the barbs.
West Warrior moves S to wheat and river.
Slider to 0.8.2 for Azachi's increased pop.
MM the two cities to juggle for maximum gold, minimum waste of food and shields.
Mysticism now 6 turns, -2 gpt.

Turn 5 2350 BC

25 gold, Mysticism in 5 turns.

Barb camp in the east now has two warriors.
East Warrior doubles back south to investigate green border.
West Warrior moves south, sees more wheat. What a beautiful river site.

IBT: A barb warrior heads south out of camp in the east.
Warriors completed in both cities. Worker completes irrigation.

Turn 6 2310 BC

23 gold, Mysticism in 4 turns.

Worker starts road on plains tile.
New warrior fortifies in Nagoya as MP ready for growth.
New Vet Warrior heads SE to explore the local fog.
East Warrior S, playing cat annd mouse with the barb to try to get into a good defensive location.
Set Azachi to build a Settler, Nagoya starts a warrior, to be reviewed.

IBT: Azuchi grows to pop 5, Nagoya grows to pop 2.

Turn 7 2270 BC

21 gold, Mysticism in 3 turns.

East Warrior SE. West Warrior S. Vet Warrior SE.
Tokugawa now has another city.

Turn 8 2230 BC

19 gold, Mysticism in 2 turns.

East Warrior E into forest next to barb. Defensive bonus should be OK
West Warrior S, sees a red border.
Vet Warrior SE to mountain, sees more bonus grass between the cattle and the wines. This could be another good site.
Contact with Kuroda, the civ with teh green border. East Warrior must have been spotted approaching. Kuroda has 10 gold, Wheel and Bronze, and doesn't need anything. However, the second source reduces Tokugawa's prices and he will swap Bronze for Terracotta. It's a deal.
Switch Nagoya to Granary.
Slider to 0.7.3 to keep Azuchi happy. Mysticism is still due in 2 turns.

Note to self: I'm seeing messy diplo messages. Must check if I have the right diplomacy.txt file when I've finished this sequence.

IBT: Barb attacks East Warrior in forest and dies. Inflicts zero damage.

Turn 9 2190 BC

17 gold. Mysticism next turn.

East Warrior moves NE to hills to confirm green border.
Vet Warrior E.
West Warrior moves SW to mountain, sees an empty city.
Contact with Takeda. He's annoyed, has 10 gold and 3 cities, Wheel and Iron Working.
He wants Burial and Terracotta.
Check around for deals. Tokugara has Iron Working and Wheel as well, but Kurode only has Wheel. Let's deal!

Takeda gives Iron Working plus 10 gold for Terracotta plus Burial.
Karoda gives Wheel plus 10 gold for Iron Working.

We have iron near to Nagoya and horses and iron in the southern hills.

Adjust slider to 2.5.3 for minimum science to complete Mysticism, break even.

IBT: Mysticism complete. Start Shamanism at 10%, 50 turns.
Settler completed in Azachi, start Flagged Footman (for review by Smackster)

Turn 10 2150 BC

East Warrior N. Weat Warrior SE. Vet Warrior E. Sees a river, this site looks good. Settler moves SE towards this location.

Firaxis score at end of turn 2150 BC is 112.

We are up Taoist Mysticism on all three known civs, and only one has any cash left. I think it's going to be all right. I've not committed any money on the next research project yet, so that's an open choice. The others will not even get started on Shamanism for a while, so we can keep our lead with that, or we could go for Bajutsu, or ....

Bansai, Smackster!

The zipped save.

Here's a screenshot. I've marked a possible second settler/high productivity location with a yellow dot. With a temple to expand it, it will grab the wine, the cattle and the iron. There's iron and horss where I've marked them, and I've put pink dots at possible city locations. Four are at 3-3.5 RCP distance to match Nagoya, the other two are options to snag the horses.

 

[mad-bax]

Smackster is UP.

 

[Karasu]

Good, Alan! Great idea with settling over there. It's the small detail that nobody saw...

I realised tonight that we had the potential settler factory, and rushed throught the thread this morning with some anticipation.
I think I had been waylaid by the inconscious reluctance at settling on Bonus Grasslands... Another good lesson!

Still, I think SirBugsy made the right choice to stick to the Granary. Much as I was torn between that and the early Settler, I think that we are in a good position to use Azuchi as Worker - Military factory (plus the odd Settler) for a more efficient expansion.

Also, good trading round -even though that's now customary of us...
Regarding technology, I think we should consider our GA timing and war plans.
If the Kensai Oda is really our UU, we may want to slow down the tech pace somewhat and start setting up for a late-AA massive attack on our neighbours using these guys.
The GA would speed us through the early Middle Ages... straight to Cavalry?

I would settle the tile 2SE+1E of Azuchi (south of your pink), as it is still on the way to the yellow and can immediately use the Goats on the mountain.
I'd settle the western pink site next, to deny Tokugawa the horses and establish our borders along the river.

Another couple of floating comments: The Lighthouse. It's a Continents map, right? And we want to kill them all...
And the Forbidden Palace. If we don't get a Great Leader to get it in somebody else's ideally-located capital, it may be worth starting to build it not far from Azuchi. From a superficial look, the area between Azuchi and the yellow spot doesn't seem too bad.

EDIT: Oh, yes. Workers!

 

[smackster]

Too much work, there is a good chance I can't play tonight, and as I might not tomorrow I should probably skip.

No lets be decisive, I Skip this round. Probably best to completely skip me until after Alan's next turn.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

Gengis Khan, in case MB is late on line, it looks like you're UP.