Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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- Sep 8, 2010
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I stand corrected. I forget I am constantly amazed by unit mobility on slower than standard gamespeeds.
Me v Mate. Representation too powerful?
- Thread starter squoink
- Start date
I stand corrected. I forget I am constantly amazed by unit mobility on slower than standard gamespeeds.
I tested it on normal speed. Building the pyramids takes a long time.
Cheers for your input guys - really appreciated.
My scenario assumes a competition between two equalish players so it's not the idealised situation where one guy definately gets pyramids.
In the actual game the opponent may or may not be going for them and you only find out upon their completion (or can you see progress of pyramid build by opponent?).
In this situation (due to map size and epic speed) it seems reasonable to assume that the Rep guy can get defenses in place after having acquired the pyramids.
My post doesn't yet seem to have resulted in a definitive yes or no as to if having Representation this early is overly powerful
Cheers
My scenario assumes a competition between two equalish players so it's not the idealised situation where one guy definately gets pyramids.
In the actual game the opponent may or may not be going for them and you only find out upon their completion (or can you see progress of pyramid build by opponent?).
In this situation (due to map size and epic speed) it seems reasonable to assume that the Rep guy can get defenses in place after having acquired the pyramids.
My post doesn't yet seem to have resulted in a definitive yes or no as to if having Representation this early is overly powerful
Cheers
Thats a understatement if I ever heard one.
Representation is definitely powerful at the early stage, but because of the risk and cost that come with it its not brokenly powerful.
You can't see what the other guy is building without espionage (impossible this early obviously).
It isn't reasonable to assume this at all (see my earlier post). I didn't notice it was epic speed. This makes the pyramid builder even more susceptible to an early rush.
A definitive yes or no is not gonna happen. For my part, I am firmly in the camp that early Pyramids will win unless the builder is made to pay quickly, by military force.
TheDS
Regular Riot
You might try some tests:
Have your friend ALWAYS go for Pyramids while you go for something else.
Chariot rush to take the Pyramids?
Axe rush to at least THREATEN to take the Pyramids?
Spies to steal techs? (VERY powerful! LET him do all the research, spy points are cheap!)
A couple extra cities in high-food places with Cottages galore? (whipping, extra commerce)
Other wonders? (Great Library?)
Better civics?
Then after you've tried a few different strategies, switch sides, and YOU always build the 'mids and HE tries to overcome it. If the Pyramids are ALWAYS the deciding factor and can't be overcome because of your situation, then ban them. If they can be overcome, you've just found your rock-paper-scissors formula.
However, I'm thinking that maybe you guys don't know how to rapidly build up your economy/military and go kill someone. Most of these guys are shocked that the Pyramids aren't LOSING the game. This could only be if the non-'mid player isn't wisely investing the hammers he'd otherwise have available (or the gold he gets from failure).
But maybe the Pyramids are unassailable in your situation.
You've spent so much effort to make a "balanced game" that you didn't take out the one last unbalancing factor. In a normal game, there are other players to deal with, barbarians, goody huts, and so on that help even out the odds and keep the tech leaders roughly even. If you're both going for one wonder, the loser only gets some gold. With other players around, they're researching too, and can be traded with to keep your tech rate and income levels high.
Additionally, with other players and barbs around, if you are neglecting your military to, say, build an expensive Wonder, that could cost you.
There are tons of checks and balances in this game. Turning them off winds up making for weirder games.
One last idea you might try is the late-start game. Don't start in Ancient times, start perhaps in the Renaissance. Then Pyramids is irrelevant.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
Have your friend ALWAYS go for Pyramids while you go for something else.
Chariot rush to take the Pyramids?
Axe rush to at least THREATEN to take the Pyramids?
Spies to steal techs? (VERY powerful! LET him do all the research, spy points are cheap!)
A couple extra cities in high-food places with Cottages galore? (whipping, extra commerce)
Other wonders? (Great Library?)
Better civics?
Then after you've tried a few different strategies, switch sides, and YOU always build the 'mids and HE tries to overcome it. If the Pyramids are ALWAYS the deciding factor and can't be overcome because of your situation, then ban them. If they can be overcome, you've just found your rock-paper-scissors formula.
However, I'm thinking that maybe you guys don't know how to rapidly build up your economy/military and go kill someone. Most of these guys are shocked that the Pyramids aren't LOSING the game. This could only be if the non-'mid player isn't wisely investing the hammers he'd otherwise have available (or the gold he gets from failure).
But maybe the Pyramids are unassailable in your situation.
You've spent so much effort to make a "balanced game" that you didn't take out the one last unbalancing factor. In a normal game, there are other players to deal with, barbarians, goody huts, and so on that help even out the odds and keep the tech leaders roughly even. If you're both going for one wonder, the loser only gets some gold. With other players around, they're researching too, and can be traded with to keep your tech rate and income levels high.
Additionally, with other players and barbs around, if you are neglecting your military to, say, build an expensive Wonder, that could cost you.
There are tons of checks and balances in this game. Turning them off winds up making for weirder games.
One last idea you might try is the late-start game. Don't start in Ancient times, start perhaps in the Renaissance. Then Pyramids is irrelevant.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
Cheers guys - nice discussion.
Unfortunately I probably won't be able to give you much feedback as we play infrequently. Occasional weekends and games such as these can take about 15 hours.
TheDS may have hit upon something when suggesting we may not know how to rapidly build up our economy/military and go kill someone.
On this setting I only ever have about 5 or 6 cities. Is this ridiculously low given the amount of land? I'm just scared of my economy dying after a REX. My opponent who typically goes for the pyramids usually has fewer! - The ones he has are usually powerhouses though.
Cheers
Unfortunately I probably won't be able to give you much feedback as we play infrequently. Occasional weekends and games such as these can take about 15 hours.
TheDS may have hit upon something when suggesting we may not know how to rapidly build up our economy/military and go kill someone.
On this setting I only ever have about 5 or 6 cities. Is this ridiculously low given the amount of land? I'm just scared of my economy dying after a REX. My opponent who typically goes for the pyramids usually has fewer! - The ones he has are usually powerhouses though.
Cheers
Ok, next time build enough cities to get horses (two at the most), and rush him with chariots. The game won't last very long. Next game he will be compromised in his pyramid building concerns by the need to defend (this is as it should be), and you will be on more even footing.
ywhtptgtfo
Emperor
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- Jun 13, 2010
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It's a large map. Let's assume early/mid rushes are out of question.
I'd say the extra 5-6 settlers are important. Unless you guys are playing Monarch+ level, the maintenance wouldn't be too harsh. Even though your friend will get extra beakers from specialists in the end, you will likely have at least twice more cities than he does. This means your empire will have much more production and extra cities to compensate for the gap. If you know your friend's going to rush pyramids, then you may also want to go for oracle and aim for a higher sling shot (maybe civic service).
I'd say the extra 5-6 settlers are important. Unless you guys are playing Monarch+ level, the maintenance wouldn't be too harsh. Even though your friend will get extra beakers from specialists in the end, you will likely have at least twice more cities than he does. This means your empire will have much more production and extra cities to compensate for the gap. If you know your friend's going to rush pyramids, then you may also want to go for oracle and aim for a higher sling shot (maybe civic service).
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
I'm a little confused ... your first post made it sound like your games had devolved into a race for the pyramids. But now you're saying that's not the case? What problem are you trying to solve?
It's 1 v 1. My opponent may acquire the pyramids and go to Rep - he may not. And I have no way of knowing until the pyramids are built.
I'm interested to know if my opponent does this, is it a game breaker or what is the best strategy to mitigate against this?
I'm interested to know if my opponent does this, is it a game breaker or what is the best strategy to mitigate against this?
In that case you have to decided for yourself, do you want to risk it and try to get the Pyramids or do you want to play it safe and skip it.
If you decide to skip it you should simply expand and have 1-2 units garrison your cities, by the time you find out he has built the Pyramids you should have a good amount of cities, which you can then switch into making axe/swords/chariots and whip them out.
Because of the number of cities you will have you will be able to get a good size army in the 2nd or better the 3rd round of whips.Because your friend will have used his hammers for the Pyramids he wont have as many cities or as many specialist because its still early in the game so he wont be able to take advantage of Rep.Depending on what your friend went for after Pyramids you should have either a very easy kill or otherwise a good fight which you should win.
Unless your friend expect you to attack him, he will most likely try to expand after getting Pyramids, because he will have fallen behind and also will need the land and cities to take advantage of it.
If you decide to race him for the Pyramids the advice would be to do everything you can to get them,You could prechop the forest, you could tech to mats to increase your hammers (a bit risky tbh),Focus all your energy on the Pyramids, that means dont send your workers to work other tiles when you still have forest to chop into the Pyramids etc.
If you decide to skip it you should simply expand and have 1-2 units garrison your cities, by the time you find out he has built the Pyramids you should have a good amount of cities, which you can then switch into making axe/swords/chariots and whip them out.
Because of the number of cities you will have you will be able to get a good size army in the 2nd or better the 3rd round of whips.Because your friend will have used his hammers for the Pyramids he wont have as many cities or as many specialist because its still early in the game so he wont be able to take advantage of Rep.Depending on what your friend went for after Pyramids you should have either a very easy kill or otherwise a good fight which you should win.
Unless your friend expect you to attack him, he will most likely try to expand after getting Pyramids, because he will have fallen behind and also will need the land and cities to take advantage of it.
If you decide to race him for the Pyramids the advice would be to do everything you can to get them,You could prechop the forest, you could tech to mats to increase your hammers (a bit risky tbh),Focus all your energy on the Pyramids, that means dont send your workers to work other tiles when you still have forest to chop into the Pyramids etc.
Just tried this.
Build pyramids as fast as possible with non industrious leader and without stone. About 106 turns on epic.
Then in separate game gave myself 106 turns to see how I could develop my civ. I managed to get 2 poorly developed cities out plus capital. I also had 8 archers with 1 promotion.
Assume my scout has found the opponent and it takes me 30-40 moves to get my archers to my opponent.
Does this sound compensation enough?
Build pyramids as fast as possible with non industrious leader and without stone. About 106 turns on epic.
Then in separate game gave myself 106 turns to see how I could develop my civ. I managed to get 2 poorly developed cities out plus capital. I also had 8 archers with 1 promotion.
Assume my scout has found the opponent and it takes me 30-40 moves to get my archers to my opponent.
Does this sound compensation enough?
gilmore606
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2010
- Messages
- 193
only 8 archers? were you whipping? I guess you got unlucky and didn't pop bronze or horses anywhere nearby...?
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
Why don't you post a starting save and a time limit and see what other people can do with it. Might be enlightening.
Also, I'd suggest relaxing the condition that you both play the same civ. Your choice of leader/civ is going to have a big influence on strategy. I'd suggest playing unrestricted leaders and let each player choose his own leader and civ.
Also, I'd suggest relaxing the condition that you both play the same civ. Your choice of leader/civ is going to have a big influence on strategy. I'd suggest playing unrestricted leaders and let each player choose his own leader and civ.
Hi,
No need to post a save.
Try it, with epic on large Pangaea, no huts, no random events. You might get lucky with copper/horses and find your opponent quickly with a scout - you might not. What if you don't and your opponent gets the pyramids. Are you happy about this? Can you overcome the Representation advantage?
No need to post a save.
Try it, with epic on large Pangaea, no huts, no random events. You might get lucky with copper/horses and find your opponent quickly with a scout - you might not. What if you don't and your opponent gets the pyramids. Are you happy about this? Can you overcome the Representation advantage?
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