Me v Mate. Representation too powerful?

[babar]

Just tried this.

Build pyramids as fast as possible with non industrious leader and without stone. About 106 turns on epic.

Then in separate game gave myself 106 turns to see how I could develop my civ. I managed to get 2 poorly developed cities out plus capital. I also had 8 archers with 1 promotion.

Assume my scout has found the opponent and it takes me 30-40 moves to get my archers to my opponent.

Does this sound compensation enough?

Archers?! I'm sorry but this is a really useless attempt to deal with the pyramids. You are much better off warrior rushing. Just build worker, maybe a barracks, then warriors. You should easily be able to get 3 or 4 warriors to his capital before 106 turns. You have 3 cities, are planning to rush, but don't have bronze or horses. When rushing only settle to claim these resources. In this case horses is much better, doesn't matter if they are miles away. Settlers and workers waste time and hammers that could be spent on units. That means 2 cities max. What are you going to use the extra cities for when your opponent is dead?

In my test on these settings I played vs myself, augustus (industrious) vs hatty. Augustus built the pyramids, three cities, three workers (trying desperately to hook up iron), and had a total defense force of three warriors when my hordes of chariots arrived. It is true that hatty is pretty ideal for a chariot rush, and I knew roughly where the rush target was (although I did try to explore realistically). Also, if Augustus had had metal in his capital he could have put up more of a fight, but even then only if he knew the rush was coming, and he still would have lost due to choking at the very least. I actually could have got a chariot or two there much faster but I wasn't sure if that would be enough (it certainly would be).

 

[squoink]

Hi Babar - cheers for your interest in this.

Yup - I realised the archers were useless

I like the idea of warrior rush. Bear in mind though that in a real game,as mentioned earlier, I don't KNOW FOR A FACT that my opponent is building the pyramids - I just need to be in a position to compensate for it if he does. He may or may not be defenceless against the rush. Due to this concern I need to balance my rushing with developing my civ as well as I can.

 

[babar]

I like the idea of warrior rush. Bear in mind though that in a real game,as mentioned earlier, I don't KNOW FOR A FACT that my opponent is building the pyramids - I just need to be in a position to compensate for it if he does. He may or may not be defenceless against the rush. Due to this concern I need to balance my rushing with developing my civ as well as I can.

Rush with warriors or chariots and then develop while your troops are on the way over. Even if he is somewhat prepared you will be able to do some serious damage.

 

[squoink]

Yup - makes sense.

Cheers

 

[obsolete]

Mids is one of the top wonders, so it is expected to be powerful. Otherwise, why the f*ck would you put 500 hammers in it at the most important stages of the game? You are ENTITLED to a big payoff.

Weather it's good or bad depends a lot on the distances between the player... since you may just end up building it for your opponent instead.

BTW, for those thinking going after the mids just puts you behind, you may want to know that Ghandi is often banned from human skirmish games just due to the fear of Mids alone.

 

[babar]

Mids is one of the top wonders, so it is expected to be powerful. Otherwise, why the f*ck would you put 500 hammers in it at the most important stages of the game? You are ENTITLED to a big payoff.

It's true, the pyramids are easily the most expensive wonder in the game relative to time period, and there is good reason for this.

 

[dr_s]

Just tried this.

Build pyramids as fast as possible with non industrious leader and without stone. About 106 turns on epic.

Then in separate game gave myself 106 turns to see how I could develop my civ. I managed to get 2 poorly developed cities out plus capital. I also had 8 archers with 1 promotion.

Assume my scout has found the opponent and it takes me 30-40 moves to get my archers to my opponent.

Does this sound compensation enough?

I played a quick test. At turn 106, I have three cities, all producing chariots (horses were 17 tiles from my capital) and all working at least 2 improved tiles, 2 barracks (the only buildings I've built, obviously), 6 warriors, 5 chariots, 4 workers, and one scout. Lost one chariot to a barb warrior.

 

[squoink]

Not bad going!

 

[xenex]

@dr_s To me your numbers seem to show that the pyramids are pretty well balanced at least at the start.Until the mids person gets to CoL for CS hes playing catch up, once he gets to CS however he really starts going, mostly because of the reasons I posted before.


So I guess my verdict on this is, that the longer you give the mids player the more advantage you'r giving him.

Take care of him early and your good let him benefit for too long and its gonna be hard for you.

 

[gilmore606]

Does this apply to the AI? Is it smart enough to go Rep and run a ton of scientists when it builds the mids?

 

[Farm Boy]

I have not looked too carefully at the AIs specialist management, but yes, sometimes the AI is smart enough to pop into Rep immediately after building the mids. Happened in the game I am working on right now.

Of course, sometimes the AI will also hop directly into Universal Suffrage in the BCs as well with no towns possible and little cash on hand, but that is a different matter I suppose...

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

2 on a large map? Build the great wall and watch him having fun with barbs (since it's a human game, you haven't set the difficulty to settler right? You will have some decent barbies ).

Alternativly, go for the great lighthouse and spam coastal cities. It can be as strong research wise than the mids. Settle 4 oversea cities to have big trade routes in all your cities without open borders.

As everyone said, the other option is to kill the builder. (or pillage him. Just send a couple of axe/spear pairs and a couple of chariots while he is building the pointy thing. You will receive your share of hate messages )

Have fun!

edit: If you dare to bother with this, you can know if he is building the mids by looking at the demographics - provided he choosed industrious leader or has hooked up stone - , there will be a jump in production due to the activation of the production bonus. Of course, you need to check every turn to notice it (so you might not wanna do that )

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Maybe we need to do some math here to see what's the advantage that Rep + CS brings...

Under this setting, every city gets at most +2 effective population and each scientist generates 6 base beaker.

For a financial leader, it's not hard to approach that with riverside cottages. By the time CoL is reached, he should have a handful of hamlets (+4 commerce) and maybe a few villages (+5 commerce). Assuming the tiles are grass (one generally doesn't settle on plains in early game unless for good reasons), then every cottage tile is food-neutral meaning more cottages can be run than specialists. Once monarchy is researched, the +2 happy cap is also less of an issue since a good player would probably keep a small army at that point.

 

[xenex]

I didn't factor in cottages when doing my minor math, but I guess that makes a difference too since the mids person will probably be working some hammer tiles, while the expand person can simply work cottages.

 

[babar]

2 on a large map? Build the great wall and watch him having fun with barbs (since it's a human game, you haven't set the difficulty to settler right? You will have some decent barbies ).

Alternativly, go for the great lighthouse and spam coastal cities. It can be as strong research wise than the mids. Settle 4 oversea cities to have big trade routes in all your cities without open borders.

As everyone said, the other option is to kill the builder. (or pillage him. Just send a couple of axe/spear pairs and a couple of chariots while he is building the pointy thing. You will receive your share of hate messages )

Have fun!

edit: If you dare to bother with this, you can know if he is building the mids by looking at the demographics - provided he choosed industrious leader or has hooked up stone - , there will be a jump in production due to the activation of the production bonus. Of course, you need to check every turn to notice it (so you might not wanna do that )

Setting is noble. Barbs are mainly for experience. I don't think the great wall is going to cripple the other guy in this case (still useful though of course).

Large pangaea with only 2 makes the GL less good doesn't it? There are proportionately much fewer coastal cities than standard size, and you can't rely on getting any islands at all.

Nice tip about the demographics/espionage!

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

even on pangea, you can have 4 one tile islands (anyway you need only three till economics since you won't have more TRs by city unless playing Hannibal)! The thing is that then you will have 4 *3 commerce from the get go (you should get at least 3 commerce from an oversea internal trade route). Prolly less powerfull than mids but cheaper.

Yeah if it's played on noble, the GW might not be usefull... even more reason to go pillaging

CHeers

 

[obsolete]

Under this setting, every city gets at most +2 effective population and each scientist generates 6 base beaker.

That doesn't make sense. Rep gives +3 happy bonus, and it doesn't give it to EVERY city.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

That doesn't make sense. Rep gives +3 happy bonus, and it doesn't give it to EVERY city.

Rep gives +3?!

Anyhow, it applies to effectively every city because one would usually need to go well into the A.D.'s to get more than 6 cities near the happiness cap (especially in higher difficulties).

 

[Higher Game]

Assuming he does get the pyramids first, it takes a long time for technology to catch up with a lack of military, and it will take him a while to leverage representation anyway. You have an advantage in the ancient and classical eras; he will probably have his peak at the medieval era. If you didn't kill him early and you're on defense then (possible, given his small but explosive start), you can kill macemen stacks with charge horse archers and catapults. You're bigger, and you'll want those fast units anyway to defend a long front. He'll need to get to engineering and pikemen to compete, by which time you should have macemen yourself and have enough momentum to win on size in the renaissance era.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Assuming he does get the pyramids first, it takes a long time for technology to catch up with a lack of military, and it will take him a while to leverage representation anyway. You have an advantage in the ancient and classical eras; he will probably have his peak at the medieval era. If you didn't kill him early and you're on defense then (possible, given his small but explosive start), you can kill macemen stacks with charge horse archers and catapults. You're bigger, and you'll want those fast units anyway to defend a long front. He'll need to get to engineering and pikemen to compete, by which time you should have macemen yourself and have enough momentum to win on size in the renaissance era.

My impression that SE starts to fall through as you progress into the Industrial Era when cottages mature and bonuses from Printing Press, Universal Suffrage, and Free Speech start to push the output of CE above SE.

While the increased GPP does give the opponent an edge in the form of bulbing, this advantage levels off quickly due to decreasing returns. I'd assume a CE player with HR and a specialist farm can still do pretty well in the GPP domain.

And again, a war in the middle ages is likely infeasible due to the nature of the map (2 players, pangaea, large).