Mehmet II of the Ottomans

History buff33

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Where does Mehmet II stand in history? I believe his victory at Constantinople in 1453 was the greatest victory in the history of the Ottoman Empire, but you have to also look at his loss at Belgrade in 1456 to evaluate him also. He had many campaigns and conqured several lands but didn't really expand the land base greatly of the Ottoman Empire but did expand it decently. His victory at Constantinople insured the survival of the Turkish Empire for 450 years. I say he is at least the second best sultan in Ottoman history but where does he stand in world history? Thats what this Ottoman enthusiast inquires of CFC...
 
Where does Mehmet II stand in history? I believe his victory at Constantinople in 1453 was the greatest victory in the history of the Ottoman Empire,

Really? I'd say it was rather inevitable by the time of Mehmed's ascension.

His victory at Constantinople insured the survival of the Turkish Empire for 450 years.

Would you care to demonstrate this point?
 
Where does Mehmet II stand in history? I believe his victory at Constantinople in 1453 was the greatest victory in the history of the Ottoman Empire, but you have to also look at his loss at Belgrade in 1456 to evaluate him also. He had many campaigns and conqured several lands but didn't really expand the land base greatly of the Ottoman Empire but did expand it decently. His victory at Constantinople insured the survival of the Turkish Empire for 450 years. I say he is at least the second best sultan in Ottoman history but where does he stand in world history? Thats what this Ottoman enthusiast inquires of CFC...

I honestly do think that fall of Constantinople is a bit over-hyped. It was an end of an era sure, but the actual benefits is debatable. While Mehmed did get a fancy new capital worthy of Ottoman power, ended the Byzantine menace and finally secured Ottoman strength in the Balkans/Anatolia, the battle itself, interesting as it is, is not that great of a victory. 80,000 to 7,000 troops is not much of a fair fight, even behind the greatest walls ever built.

Nevertheless, the psychological effects of the capture of Constantinople is greater. It increased Ottoman prestige and severely shocked the Christian world. To a point that the pope fled Rome when Mehmed landed his army in Italy 1481.

In regards to the rest of his reign, he was a great military leader and for some 20 years after 1453, was responsible for the centralisation of Ottoman power over the Balkans and Anatolia by taking out a couple of minor states, Trebizon, Karamanids, Morea etc, while reforming the entire administrative system. The most important thing he did in his reign was to turn the Ottoman Empire from a semi-nomadic tribe into a great state. He introduced laws, administration, bureaucracy, culture, arts and settled a great capital that would be military base of all future wars by future Sultans.

I would agree that he is the 2nd most important Turkish Sultan to rule and perhaps the 3rd most important ruler Turkey ever had.

*Mehmed II's Father Murad II was by far the most important Turkish Sultan for stopping the Ottoman State from falling apart after the defeat of Bayezid by the Timurids and Mustafa Kemal Atatürk for the most important Turkish Ruler for stopping the Turkish Nation from falling apart after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by the Allied Powers of WWI
 
*Mehmed II's Father Murad II was by far the most important Turkish Sultan for stopping the Ottoman State from falling apart after the defeat of Bayezid by the Timurids and Mustafa Kemal Atatürk for the most important Turkish Ruler for stopping the Turkish Nation from falling apart after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by the Allied Powers of WWI

What about Sulieman The Magnificant (Name spelling?)
 
Really? I'd say it was rather inevitable by the time of Mehmed's ascension.
I wouldn't say it was inevitable. After all, the Ottomans damn near cocked the whole thing up. A failure at the walls of Constantinople would be a major blow to Mehmet's prestige, which could lead to civil unrest, a potential coup, etc.. Mehmet and his father consolidated the Ottoman state. Without that consolidation, who knows if the Ottomans would ever have amounted to anything more than another transitional kingdom of semi-nomadic conquerors, such as the Huns or Pechenegs?
 
What about Sulieman The Magnificant (Name spelling?)

He was a great Sultan, no argument. He brought the empire to new heights. But it was because of Murad's and Mehmed's achievement in solidifying the state did future Sultans succeed so amazingly.

Basically, what lord baal said.
 
I wouldn't say it was inevitable. After all, the Ottomans damn near cocked the whole thing up. A failure at the walls of Constantinople would be a major blow to Mehmet's prestige, which could lead to civil unrest, a potential coup, etc.. Mehmet and his father consolidated the Ottoman state. Without that consolidation, who knows if the Ottomans would ever have amounted to anything more than another transitional kingdom of semi-nomadic conquerors, such as the Huns or Pechenegs?

I am of the impression that the purpose of the artillery was not to breach the walls, as it became apparent that the walls were being repaired faster than the Turks could fire. Rather, it was an intimidation tactic. The Turks had enough manpower to swarm the walls of Constantinople. It would've lead to a catastrophic amount of casualties, but it would've worked eventually, and to the same effect; so he figured that after a very wound-down siege, the artillery would eventually break the morale of the defenders.

Luckily for Mehmed, one of the Roman guards was unable to lock one of the gates to the city, which accelerated the process for the Ottomans.
 
*Mehmed II's Father Murad II was by far the most important Turkish Sultan

murad got my vote too in the poll that was a couple of months ago on the forum.

Mehmet was ok... albeit a bit rash if you ask me. Too rash to be a great strategist.
 
I believe Mehmet is the second best Ottoman sultan.
 
I am of the impression that the purpose of the artillery was not to breach the walls, as it became apparent that the walls were being repaired faster than the Turks could fire. Rather, it was an intimidation tactic. The Turks had enough manpower to swarm the walls of Constantinople. It would've lead to a catastrophic amount of casualties, but it would've worked eventually, and to the same effect; so he figured that after a very wound-down siege, the artillery would eventually break the morale of the defenders.

Luckily for Mehmed, one of the Roman guards was unable to lock one of the gates to the city, which accelerated the process for the Ottomans.
No, the artillery was definitely brought forward with the intention of breaching the walls. The poor performance of the artillery against Constantinople's walls - they didn't knock it down in many places, and the Byzantines didn't really need to work that fast to rebuild them - was quite embarrassing for the Ottoman gunsmith, a shady little Hungarian character named Ogren (sp?). I spent a good month researching the Fall of Constantinople for a research project at university a while back. The Byzantines had the opportunity and the cash to employ Ogren themselves, but turned him down because they recognised the drawbacks of his cannons. They were large, but unweildy and difficult to aim. The Ottomans apparently concluded that Constantinople was so big it wouldn't matter that the cannons were difficult to aim and reload, and purchased both the cannons and Ogren's continued service.

As for the numbers of the Turks; the disparity between the defenders of Constantinople and the Ottoman army is greatly exaggerated. The Byzantines were definitely outnumbered, but the city was well-defended. Not only that, but if the walls were breached - which is something the Turks really weren't capable of doing except through a brute force frontal swarming, as you suggest - then Constantine XI had prepared at least two other lines of defence. The fall of the city was the result of either accident or - much more likely - treachery, as one of the gates was left open. The Turks swarmed through the gate, cutting of most of the defenders from the inner barricades, and Constantine XI decided to go down fighting rather than evacuating to Moscow, where his son-in-law was Tsar.

No, if the walls hadn't been breached by treachery there really wasn't any way for the Ottomans to take the city. Their naval blockade stood little chance of starving Constantinople out, as Constantine XI had stocked enough food to last many months, whereas the Turks themselves were running out of food and supplies quicker than they could be replenished. If the city hadn't fallen within a month or two of when it did the Turks would have been forced to withdraw. Constantine would have had supplies brought in via the land, restocked, then gone through it all again the next year.

Constantine couldn't have broken the blockade himself, but there was a very good chance that if the city held out through one seige the Venetians might finally work up the courage to strike at the Turkish fleet. If they did, they'd have won. I don't see Mehmet lasting long as Sultan if he failed to take the city, and rest assured, he got very lucky. THe Ottoman Empire came perilously close to never existing.
 
No, the artillery was definitely brought forward with the intention of breaching the walls. The poor performance of the artillery against Constantinople's walls - they didn't knock it down in many places, and the Byzantines didn't really need to work that fast to rebuild them - was quite embarrassing for the Ottoman gunsmith, a shady little Hungarian character named Ogren (sp?). I spent a good month researching the Fall of Constantinople for a research project at university a while back. The Byzantines had the opportunity and the cash to employ Ogren themselves, but turned him down because they recognised the drawbacks of his cannons. They were large, but unweildy and difficult to aim. The Ottomans apparently concluded that Constantinople was so big it wouldn't matter that the cannons were difficult to aim and reload, and purchased both the cannons and Ogren's continued service.

As for the numbers of the Turks; the disparity between the defenders of Constantinople and the Ottoman army is greatly exaggerated. The Byzantines were definitely outnumbered, but the city was well-defended. Not only that, but if the walls were breached - which is something the Turks really weren't capable of doing except through a brute force frontal swarming, as you suggest - then Constantine XI had prepared at least two other lines of defence. The fall of the city was the result of either accident or - much more likely - treachery, as one of the gates was left open. The Turks swarmed through the gate, cutting of most of the defenders from the inner barricades, and Constantine XI decided to go down fighting rather than evacuating to Moscow, where his son-in-law was Tsar.

No, if the walls hadn't been breached by treachery there really wasn't any way for the Ottomans to take the city. Their naval blockade stood little chance of starving Constantinople out, as Constantine XI had stocked enough food to last many months, whereas the Turks themselves were running out of food and supplies quicker than they could be replenished. If the city hadn't fallen within a month or two of when it did the Turks would have been forced to withdraw. Constantine would have had supplies brought in via the land, restocked, then gone through it all again the next year.

Constantine couldn't have broken the blockade himself, but there was a very good chance that if the city held out through one seige the Venetians might finally work up the courage to strike at the Turkish fleet. If they did, they'd have won. I don't see Mehmet lasting long as Sultan if he failed to take the city, and rest assured, he got very lucky. THe Ottoman Empire came perilously close to never existing.

The walls themselves were actually breached at a similar time to the door being left open. The cannons had done a reasonable job at damaging the walls but the defenders were able to repair it, the problem was that they could only repair it in a haphazard way; skins, barrels, wood etc and it was at one of these points that a segment of the wall actually gave way allowing Mehmed to chuck everything he had at it. The defenders may have been able to stop it but obviously the enemy were already behind by this point. Crucially it is allegedly damage from cannon fire which led to injuries to Giustiniani, the de facto leader of the troops on the wall, which led to numerous Genoese already there leaving the walls to protect him back on the ship.

This book is quite an interesting overview of the final period;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Constantinople-Last-Great-Siege-1453/dp/0571221866

I think that was the book which began me on my dissertation trail.

But i'm not sure that the Venetians would have suddenly decided to come and help out, if the siege had failed it would have been just another countless siege which failed on Constantinoples walls and therefore why would it have made any difference to them.
 
@ Lord Baal

Wait, didn't Mehmed ordered that all cannons to fire upon a weak spot in the wall which eventually was breached terribly? I am certain that the combination of the Ottomans breaking down parts of the wall, the unlocked gate and the pressure on the sea-side walls and with the psychological blow of the withdrawal of the Genoese in the final assault caused the city to fall.

I knew that it was imperative that Mehmed capture the city in the next two months, not because they were running low on supplies but because the Christian Powers were planning to relieve the city in a crusade. Also, the siege of the city via the sea-side walls put immense pressure on the Christians as they now had to defend two walls instead of one.

What is this second defense that you speak off? I thought Constantine had only enough money and time to repair the outer most wall? The second wall and moat wasn't had no upkeep.

In my view, the city was doomed to fall. Even if the gate was not left open, the walls were beginning to take serious damage and that Byzantine/Italian casualties were starting to become too serious to properly defend the walls for more than a few weeks. The open gate was a matter of time.
 
Actually the feared Crusade wasn't actually going to happen. Mehmed thought that the Hungarians, Venetians and others would march to relieve Constantinople, but if I recall my reading correctly at the time neither had much interest in doing so and the Ventians made only a haphazard lackluster attempt to send aid. The Ottomans had built forts along the Dardanelles particularly Rumeli Hisari (the Throathcutter) which would have complicated any serious attempt by the Ventians to relieve Constatinople. In fact Constantine IX offered the Ventiains, Genoese, and Hungarians all pieces of the territory he had left, I believed he offered the Ventians some trading rights and a few of the islands he had left, and possibly the Morea I think he offered the Hungarians the island of Marama and something else, but none of them went for it.

Also the Byzantines wanted to hire Orban (who was a Hungarian) and he was in their service for a few months at least and offered them both cannons and arqubuses, but he left Constantinople after the Emperor failed to pay him several times. The Byzantines were bankrupt, they had no money, they couldn't afford Orban's services. So he jumped ship and went to Mehmed who paid him lavishly and ordered the construction of a massive cannon. The cannon worked and I believe was even instrumental in reducing Constantinople. In modern day Istanbul there is even a street named after Orban, which is the location where he presumably resided and remained in the service of the Ottoman Empire.
 
Actually the feared Crusade wasn't actually going to happen. Mehmed thought that the Hungarians, Venetians and others would march to relieve Constantinople, but if I recall my reading correctly at the time neither had much interest in doing so and the Ventians made only a haphazard lackluster attempt to send aid. The Ottomans had built forts along the Dardanelles particularly Rumeli Hisari (the Throathcutter) which would have complicated any serious attempt by the Ventians to relieve Constatinople. In fact Constantine IX offered the Ventiains, Genoese, and Hungarians all pieces of the territory he had left, I believed he offered the Ventians some trading rights and a few of the islands he had left, and possibly the Morea I think he offered the Hungarians the island of Marama and something else, but none of them went for it.

They were quite put off/substantially rebuilding following the disaster at Varna 10 years earlier.
 
The walls themselves were actually breached at a similar time to the door being left open. The cannons had done a reasonable job at damaging the walls but the defenders were able to repair it, the problem was that they could only repair it in a haphazard way; skins, barrels, wood etc and it was at one of these points that a segment of the wall actually gave way allowing Mehmed to chuck everything he had at it. The defenders may have been able to stop it but obviously the enemy were already behind by this point.
I'm aware of this. I'd contend, however, that had the gate not been opened the Byzantines would have been able to shore up the wall.

Crucially it is allegedly damage from cannon fire which led to injuries to Giustiniani, the de facto leader of the troops on the wall, which led to numerous Genoese already there leaving the walls to protect him back on the ship.
This is a far bigger deal than yet another breach in the wall. Giustiani was possibly the greatest proponent of defensive seigecraft then living. His loss was a tremendous blow.

This book is quite an interesting overview of the final period;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Constantinople-Last-Great-Siege-1453/dp/0571221866

I think that was the book which began me on my dissertation trail.
I read it a while back. Been a while though.

But i'm not sure that the Venetians would have suddenly decided to come and help out, if the siege had failed it would have been just another countless siege which failed on Constantinoples walls and therefore why would it have made any difference to them.
The deal with Venice at the time was that there was a split amongst the elite. There were two factions, one of which wanted to send aid and one of which wished to withhold it. As it was, neither side gained supremacy; they were still arguing it out when the city fell. If Constantinople had survived the seige, there is a decent chance that the pro-intervention faction would have gained power and broken the blockade. Of course, there's also a good chance that the two sides would have continued to argue rather than reach any concrete decisions one way or another, but I don't see the Ottomans remaining a threat long enough to maintain the blockade more than another year anyway.

@ Lord Baal

Wait, didn't Mehmed ordered that all cannons to fire upon a weak spot in the wall which eventually was breached terribly?
Yes. It didn't matter; the defenders could rebuild the walls quicker than the Turks could destroy them, even if the new "walls" were little more than piled-up rubble. Regarding the accuracy of the cannons; they weren't terribly accurate. They were, on the other hand, very large, so they didn't have to be that accurate. If they all hit near-enough to the same section of wall, they'd bring it down.

I am certain that the combination of the Ottomans breaking down parts of the wall, the unlocked gate and the pressure on the sea-side walls and with the psychological blow of the withdrawal of the Genoese in the final assault caused the city to fall.
It was the open gate that caused the city to fall. The other factors were certainly problematic - the blockade is as likely to have kept Constantine XI from leaving as any thoughts of noble sacrifice - but the breach in the wall was the final straw.

I knew that it was imperative that Mehmed capture the city in the next two months, not because they were running low on supplies but because the Christian Powers were planning to relieve the city in a crusade.
There was no crusade. The Pope and Constantine were both hoping for one, but it wasn't coming. At most, a few mercenaries and maybe the Venetians would have shown up to help the city, but that's all.

Also, the siege of the city via the sea-side walls put immense pressure on the Christians as they now had to defend two walls instead of one.

What is this second defense that you speak off? I thought Constantine had only enough money and time to repair the outer most wall? The second wall and moat wasn't had no upkeep.
Constantinople actually had three walls. The outermost wall was the most important of the three, but all three were capable of holding off an assault to some extent. I'm referring more to Constantine's private keep and some inner barricades than the second and third wall though.

In my view, the city was doomed to fall. Even if the gate was not left open, the walls were beginning to take serious damage and that Byzantine/Italian casualties were starting to become too serious to properly defend the walls for more than a few weeks. The open gate was a matter of time.
I concede that the casualties were mounting on the side of the defenders. I do not believe, however, that those casualties would have doomed the city before the Ottomans were themselves forced to withdraw.

Actually the feared Crusade wasn't actually going to happen. Mehmed thought that the Hungarians, Venetians and others would march to relieve Constantinople, but if I recall my reading correctly at the time neither had much interest in doing so and the Ventians made only a haphazard lackluster attempt to send aid. The Ottomans had built forts along the Dardanelles particularly Rumeli Hisari (the Throathcutter) which would have complicated any serious attempt by the Ventians to relieve Constatinople. In fact Constantine IX offered the Ventiains, Genoese, and Hungarians all pieces of the territory he had left, I believed he offered the Ventians some trading rights and a few of the islands he had left, and possibly the Morea I think he offered the Hungarians the island of Marama and something else, but none of them went for it.
The fear of a crusading army showing up did have an effect on the thinking of Mehmet and his generals though, there can be no doubt of that. Constantine XI knew it wasn't coming, but the opposition didn't.

Also the Byzantines wanted to hire Orban
I am utterly humiliated by how badly I misspelt this chap's name.

(who was a Hungarian) and he was in their service for a few months at least and offered them both cannons and arqubuses, but he left Constantinople after the Emperor failed to pay him several times. The Byzantines were bankrupt, they had no money, they couldn't afford Orban's services.
Don't forget that even had they possessed the funds, the Byzantines had no intentions of paying for some of Orban's ridiculously over-sized and useless weapons. Some of Mehmet's generals also advised against it.

So he jumped ship and went to Mehmed who paid him lavishly and ordered the construction of a massive cannon. The cannon worked and I believe was even instrumental in reducing Constantinople.
The cannon was great... Once. The problem was that it was so goddamn big it took several hours to reload. Not only that, but the recoil routinely destroyed the wooden base for the cannon, requiring the construction of a new one every time.

In modern day Istanbul there is even a street named after Orban, which is the location where he presumably resided and remained in the service of the Ottoman Empire.
Orban is a pretty mysterious character. Other than that he was Hungarian, worked for both sides, and supposedly stayed in the service of the Sultan after the Fall of Constantinople, next to nothing is known about the guy.
 
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