Merge Sorcery and Summoning?

[Kael]

This is a pretty significant change so bear with me. The short version is that we would merge mages/archmages and conjurers/summoners using the best spells of each and kicking out the weakest spells. This helps when we go to work on the AI, reduces art requirements, and generally makes all the spells more useful. I also think its more intuitive for new players.

Here are the proposed spells for each sphere:

Air
[TAB] Fair Winds (still a weak spell unless we can think of another function for it)
[TAB] Maelstrom (power reduced, replaces whirlwind)
[TAB] Conjure Air Elemental (replaces maelstrom)
Body
[TAB] Haste
[TAB] Regeneration (still a weak spell, needs to be improved)
[TAB] Graft Flesh
Chaos
[TAB] Dance of Blades (kinda boring, anythign more interesting we can do here?)
[TAB] Mutation (replaces dispel magic)
[TAB] Summon Pit Beast (replaces rage)
Creation
[TAB]
[TAB]
[TAB]
Death
[TAB] Raise Skeleton
[TAB] Summon Spectre (replaces contagion)
[TAB] Summon Wraith (replaces lichdom)
Dimensional
[TAB] Escape
[TAB]
[TAB]
Earth
[TAB] Wall of Stone (kinda boring, maybe add an effect when it is cast outside of cities?)
[TAB] Stoneskin
[TAB] Conjure Earth Elemental (replaces crush)
Enchantment
[TAB] Enchanted Blade
[TAB] Flaming Arrows
[TAB] Spellstaff
Entropy
[TAB] Wither
[TAB] Rust
[TAB] Enervation (now it also causes some death damage)
Fire
[TAB] Blaze
[TAB] Fireball
[TAB] Conjure Fire Elemental (replaces meteor swarm)
Force
[TAB]
[TAB] Whirlwind (push)
[TAB]
Ice
[TAB]
[TAB]
[TAB]
Law
[TAB] Loyalty
[TAB] Valor
[TAB] Summon Hosts of the Einherjar (replaces unyielding order)
Life
[TAB] Sanctify (needs a broader use, maybe this and defile grants bonuses in the tile to angels/demons?)
[TAB] Destroy Undead
[TAB] Ressurection (very specific, needs a more general use)
Metamagic
[TAB] Floating Eye
[TAB] Dispel Magic
[TAB] Summon Djinn
Mind
[TAB] Charm Person
[TAB] Inspiration
[TAB] Domination
Nature
[TAB] Treetop Defense
[TAB] Poisoned Blade
[TAB] Vitalize
Shadow
[TAB] Blur
[TAB] Shadowwalk (replaces hide)
[TAB] Summon Mistform (replaces shadowwalk)
Spirit
[TAB] Courage
[TAB] Hope
[TAB] Trust (probably needs to be more powerful)
Sun
[TAB] Scorch
[TAB] Blinding Light
[TAB] Summon Aurealis (replaces revelation)
Water
[TAB] Spring
[TAB] Water Walking
[TAB] Conjure Water Elemental (replaces tsunami)


Along with that change all of the priests would switch to a new model where they all get the following spell:

Divine spells for all priests:
[TAB]Cure Disease

Divine spells for all high priests:
[TAB]Heal

And each priest/high priest get the following unique spell based on their religion (the first spell is the priest spell, the 2nd is the high priest spell):

Order (start with spirit guide promotion)
[TAB] Bless
[TAB] Unyielding Order
Empyrean
[TAB] Revelation
[TAB] Crown of Brillance
Runes
[TAB] Shield of Faith
[TAB] Earthquake
Fellowship
[TAB] Bloom
[TAB] Summon Treant
Esus
[TAB]
[TAB]
Overlords (start with water walking promotion)
[TAB] Tsunami
[TAB] Summon Kraken
Veil (start with unholy taint promotion)
[TAB] Ring of Flames
[TAB] Summon Balor


Special Use spells:
[TAB]Burning Blood (maintained for the Moroi)
[TAB]Rage (maintained for the avatar of wrath)
[TAB]Contagion (becoming a unique spell for Mary)
[TAB]Lichdom (becoming a special 2nd spell that is available with death3)
[TAB]Crush (becoming a special dwarven druid spell)
[TAB]Pillar of Fire (becoming a special spell for Chalid)
[TAB]Entangle (becomes a special druid only spell)
[TAB]Hide (becomes a special spell for units with the stealth promotion)
[TAB]Summon Sand Lion (becomes a special Malakim only spell)


Spells that would be removed by this plan:
[TAB]Hasturs Razor (may become a unique spell for Hemah)
[TAB]Transmutation
[TAB]Summon Kikijub
[TAB]Spiritual Hammer
[TAB]Unholy Taint
[TAB]Summon Imp
[TAB]Banish
[TAB]Summon Azer
[TAB]Meteor Swarm
[TAB]Restore City
[TAB]Summon Law Bringer
[TAB]Righteous Cause
[TAB]Summon Griffon
[TAB]Summon Lifespark
[TAB]Hideous Thoughts
[TAB]Summon Guardian Vines
[TAB]Summon Phantasm
[TAB]Whitefire
[TAB]Spirit Guide
[TAB]Summon Chaos Marauder


What do you guys think?

 

[woodelf]

Yes. Right now there are too many choices and not all of them useful. Keeping it simple makes magic less imposing and thus more exciting. A big

 

[seZereth]

I like it while it takes away the strategic decision between conjurer and mage, it makes things much easier.
I´d like to see adepts having the weakest spell of the sphere and then when you upgrade the adept to lets call it "spellcaster", he can choose either of the remaining two and when you upgrade to the "archspellcaster", you can add the last remaining spell promotion of that sphere (so, you still get the choice between a summoning and a magical spell, without having to use two different units)


(sorry that i cant contribute anything more constructive)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I was ready to hate it... but after a cursory examination, I think it might be a good idea. Cleans up some of the weaker spells, fills out some other spell spheres.

Allowing veil priests access to cure disease is a pretty big change. But, really, it wasn't so much a weakness before as a noob trap in using diseased corpses, so it's probably a good thing.

IF you remove guardian vine spell, please leave the unit, I like putting it in scenarios sometimes (to block paths or what not.)

With burning blood not being targeted, it's probably better to remove it.

Order priests are getting a bit of a nerf, though, since spirit guide doesn't add all that much to their usefulness. Maybe they could get bless early? OR shield of faith instead (giving runes spiritual hammer instead? Fittingly dwarven), and start with spirit guide for free (it's so random, it's hardly overbalancing). In the same way, all veil priests could start with unholy taint.

Spirit sphere is kinda weak at the top, trust has never been great, being a one use...

 

[Kael]

Im not planning on removing any units, the art is too cool. They will probably move off to events just to spice things up: an opportunity to buy a griffon, etc.

The only thing im worried about with this design is its impact on the summoning trait. hmm..

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The only thing im worried about with this design is its impact on the summoning trait. hmm..

Make it not apply to fireballs and meteors, if possible, and it's fine... except for the fact that mobius witches are a lot more useful to Sheaim if they can summon... (enough that I'd say take em out, rather than give them their best unit for free)

(ps-edited above post)

 

[Kael]

I juggled the priest abilities in the first post based on NK's feedback. Order priests get the spirit guide prom for free, veil priests get unholy taint for free. Only Order priests can cast bless.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

The thing that I noticed was that this will make archmages weaker in combat against stacks then before. You seem to haver eliminated almost all of the spells that do direct damage to units. Except for Maelstrom and Destroy Undead. (one weakened, the other weak already) Was this intentional?

Summons are nice, but most only damage one enemy unit at a time.

With priests there is now only Crown of Brillance and Ring of Flames. I think this is nice, since now there is a clear military reason to go Veil: Ring of Flames.

 

[Kael]

The thing that I noticed was that this will make archmages weaker in combat against stacks then before. You seem to haver eliminated almost all of the spells that do direct damage to units. Except for Maelstrom and Destroy Undead. (one weakened, the other weak already) Was this intentional?

Summons are nice, but most only damage one enemy unit at a time.

With priests there is now only Crown of Brillance and Ring of Flames. I think this is nice, since now there is a clear military reason to go Veil: Ring of Flames.

Somewhat intentional since archmages were to effective against large stacks. But I wouldnt mind specilizing the archmage summons a bit to make them effective in different situations, fire could do collateral, earth could ignore building defenses, air has high movement, etc.

 

[seZereth]

Somewhat intentional since archmages were to effective against large stacks. But I wouldnt mind specilizing the archmage summons a bit to make them effective in different situations, fire could do collateral, earth could ignore building defenses, air has high movement, etc.

i support that idea for completely "flavoral" reasons..

 

[Kael]

Moved public, be kind everyone.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I strongly dislike most of these changes, although a few of them are ok.

Edit: Hmm..You might be able to convince me if you got rid of the sorcery/summoning dichotomy but it would probably require adding cross-sphere spells. Sphere promotions for Enchantment, Dimensional, Creation, and Meta Magic might make more sense if they had no power of their own but allowed access to branches of magic. Each level of these spheres could be sort of a combination of channeling and sorcery/summoning type promotions. For example, they enchantment levels would make your enchanters better, but things would be enchanted with fire, spirit, cold, mind, etc magics. (This reminds me of how Kyorlin used the knowledge of enchentment that he learned from Nantosuelta to enchant Belenus's blade with fire mana.) Logically it seems like summoning any creature from another plane would require some dimensional magic, although "summons" from this sphere (skeletons, treants, guardian vines, etc) would have no such requirement.

Having individual spheres be essentially useless alone but very powerful when combined would be quite cool, as would allowing certain spells to have different effects (more strength, different damage types) based on what other promotions the caster has and perhaps how much of each mana the caster has. It would very cool if different spheres had greatly different effects when combined with other spheres. I can image spirit would normally be a very benevolent sphere, but when combined with death, shadow, or entropy it could allow Laroth-type spells (crushing the morale of armies, sending cities into a panic, sacrificing souls to create weapons, etc)


Of course, this wouldn't actually cut down on the number of spells, it would probably increase the number greatly. However it could could get rid of the requirement to add things just to fill spots, and could give you a strategic decision to make about whether to pursue spheres that are more powerful on their own or spheres that are almost useless by themselves but could be combined for a much greater effect.


This would be a HUGE change to how things work, but it could be good.

 

[unclethrill]

I do agree that something needs to be changed to allow archmages to be more powerful. Right now, having mages and such are great but you can easily win a victory without ever doing much with magic in general. Eliminating some of the useless spells and maybe making advancements a bit slower would be a great choice.

BTW please don't get ride of lichdom. Having it allows a dedicated magic campaign possible because you can have 3 lichs and 3 archmages rolling with your stack of warriors.

 

[Wyrmhero]

I agree with Magister. Sure, the spells are complicated for the AI to use, but I think that the strategy of magic goes if you simplify it. Besides, I'm more likely to use spells in MP instead of SP anyway.

 

[TBox]

Speaking as someone mostly new to FfH, I approve of the idea because, after the Armageddon counter (which I turned off to learn the rest of the game), the magic system was the most intimidating. One look at the spell chart on phrasr.com and I had the terrible intuition that it was full of noob traps.

I'd like to point out that not all the spheres have to have the same strength spells to be "balanced" if the effect of having the resource itself is stronger in some spheres than others. Enchantment Mana's + is very exciting all by itself.

 

[kidcarson]

Ok, Less can be more, but I think this may be paring it down a little too much in some areas. I really Don't like the thought of only 3 units casting level 3 spells instead of 6(or possible 9 with lichdom). Some of the strategic choices in building mages vs. conjurerers would be gone as well as the decisions on the tech path, which would be a shame. Looking at spell choice, do we really need all 4 elemental summoning choices. Outside of Fire elementals I almost never summon the other 3. Would much rather summon a Hosts/Pit Beast/Treant than the other 3. Would agree that lichdom should be another death spell (and should death be all summons?), would it really hurt if each sphere had 4 spells available to them? Entropy needs something better, do not know what. Would get rid of Domination and find another replacement, if I only have 3 spell casters capable of using level 3 spells I will Never take a chance on it. Would agree Trust needs a boost. Priests look alright to me. will have to think more on this.

 

[Fenboy]

While removing stuff from a mod usually fills me with dread, I will admit that it will help the art team no end to have just three units in the arcane line rather than five.

 

[Demus]

the national limits would have to be changed, a total of 3 tier 3 mages seems to little.

removing a spell like meteor swarm seems like an easy solution to fix all the balance problems with the spell a lot of people seem to have (exp. when played by grigori). Still, mages seem to become even more "support troops" then they previously were. Maybe add one or two other direct damage spells, that don't do collateral damage (but instead hit the strongest unit in a stack? Think "finger of death" doing 50% damage to the strongest defender in the largest stack in range, maybe at death 2-3? Death already had 2 summons, which seems a bit over the top. The moment you hit death 3, the death 2 spell becomes useless (imho, even at archmage level, the previous levels should still have some use).

 

[xienwolf]

I suppose I can live with combining them... Ideas on the spells proposed and empty spaces:

Fair Winds: Can also be cast in a City to provide a temporary "Power Source" to allow any Windmill improvements to also produce 2

Will Air Elementals still summon Lightning Elementals?

Regeneration: Could also increase your maximum HitPoints, if that is even possible to do... and have a chance of wearing off if you are full health.

Stoneskin: Honestly pretty useless. Needs to last more than 3 rounds OR be able to be cast on someone other than the mage themself (Maybe tries to cast on the mage, but if he already has it will instead cast on the strongest unit in the stack, moving down the line until it finds one who does not have the promotion yet?)

Dance of Blades: Boring maybe, but it is a level 1 spell. Maybe give it more first strikes, or make it permanent?

Death doing just summons is perfect IMO.

Dimensional has quite a few good ideas for more spells in the .31 changelog IMO

Earth 1: Not wall of stone, but instead make the city completely immune to Bombardment. With an Earth Mage sitting there patching the holes as you make them, you CANNOT lower the defenses of a city.

Earth 2: Summon WALL unit. 5 0 unit, but counts as a 15 unit for selecting defender. Cannot damage any unit beyond 50%.

Entropy 2: All units within 1 tile gain a promotion which reduces their strength by 2 for 3 turns.

Entropy 3: All enemy units in 1 stack are given a damage limit of 90% (thus essentially cannot fight)

Life 1: Grants a promotion which blocks bad promotions (ie - when unit would normally gain Poisoned from battle, they lose this promotion instead)

Life 3: If it is possible to increase the Hitpoints of a unit beyond 100, then have this spell double the hitpoints of a unit and fully heal them. Doubled Hp only lasts for 1 turn.

Spirit 3: Maybe Trust could instead remove a single negative Diplomacy Modifier from only the opponent with the most negative attitude toward you? Then with many castings of it you can eventually get all of the Civs to like you. Somewhat micro heavy I guess....



Creation: I would like to see this sphere be a chance to really measure cost/benefit. Allow each level of the sphere to create an improvement or resource on a tile, but it costs you all of your Creation Promotions. Thus if you wait till you have Creation 3 you can make something REMARKABLE (and preferably immune to pillaging), but have just spent 3 levels of your caster to do so. Meanwhile you could have an adept spending each level on Creation 1 to pop up some fairly insignificant, but a bit better than standard, improvements all over your empire.

Force: Possibly a spell to make the caster un-targetable by Melee at rank 1 and another which makes them completely immune to being attacked (reasonably certain that if you set the damage limit to 0 instead of 100 that any attempt to attack the unit, or attack WITH the unit, would accomplish this).

Ice: No real ideas on this end, besides maybe allowing you to cause Snow tiles to appear on all water tiles surrounding the caster, assigning each one a 0-20 turn "Thaw" value so that they become water again soon.

Metamagic 3: Could go for rank 3 being an "Anti-Magic Field" (Temporary Building) which causes no spells to be able to be cast within 2 or 3 tiles of the city.


Divine: Be nice if Lifespark were also granted to all High Priests. It is a really useful tool to send into battle with the troops.

As for the removals: I LOVE the sand lions, even if only able to be conjured in a desert. High movement is phenomenal. Though the overall use of that depends on what happens with the Summoning Trait I guess. If they didn't last 3 turns I might not like them as much.

I think you could leave the summoning trait as it is, but maybe also allow it to grant the Arcane Promotion. Then you are matching the 3 turn summons against the cheaper Mage Guilds & extra Promotion when upgrading of Arcane trait (And Tebryn having both is still fairly worthwhile even with the overlap of the Arcane Promotion)

 

[Raize]

I'm of the opinion that the various spheres should be balanced in that each should have 1 "summon" type spell, 1 "nuke" type spell, and 1 "enchantment" type spell; and perhaps a 4th "effect/cantrip" spell.

The suggested changes don't have this balance; it may be worth looking at.