Merz01 - Monarch OCC, Straight Up

[Thormodr]

You can't win with culture unfortunately. Something they need to change in my opinion. OCC is challenging enough.
I will wait until tomorrow night for grs. So if he doesn't respond soon, I won't play tonight. I am impressed with our speed though. Good work guys.

 

[Methos]

That sucks! IMO an OCC culture win in CivIV would be extremely difficult, but still fun. Oh well. Hopefully they patch that.

 

[ndthsmdy]

Wow, +6 with Capac for brothers&sisters. I've seen +7 from him before in other games for this. It seems Capac is the most willing to be friends with you based on religion out of all the civs. I'm certainly going to try to keep it that way.

Are you sure you've seen +7, Merz? If so I would really like to know, because I'm working on a strat article on AI behavior based on the XML code and combining the numbers in the obvious way suggests that HC's max is +6. It'd mean there are modifiers that mess with what's in the XML.

Right now the max religion bonuses shake out like this:

+8--Asoka
+7--Izzy, Mansa
+6--Cathy, Hatty, Capac, Saladin, Washington
+5--Alex, Cyrus, Elizabeth, Frederick, Gandhi, Genghis, Kublai, Louis, Napoleon, Peter, Qin, Vicky
+4--Bismarck, Caesar, FDR, Tokugawa
+3--Mao, Monty

HC's definitely above average, but unless there are modifiers that differ from civ to civ, Asoka, Izzy, and Mansa are even more friendly.

(BTW, good game guys--the fact there's always 15 new posts every time I check in makes it very engaging )

 

[ndthsmdy]

Actually re-reading that original post there were a lot of things in there that I'm hoping to clear up--like how Mao dropped below Pleased and then refused to consider declaring (or why the tech bonus ran out on him), or how HC wouldn't consider declaring on anyone.

It turns out Mao will consider declaring on your request if he is Pleased or better with you and Cautious or below with the civ in question. HC, however, will not declare unless you are Friendly with him, and Annoyed or below with the civ in question. The benefits of gifting a tech also turn out to be quite short-lived.

Izzy's propensity for stupid declarations of war is also in the XML.

I need to catch up a bit (I blinked, and suddenly there were 2 more pages of posts ), but if I get a chance I'll drop a post here about your current diplo situation (since I want you to pull off the win).

 

[Thormodr]

Thank you ndthsmdy. Diplomacy is something I have to work on in the game so that is very interesting to me. It seems we have very unreliable allies so we will need to play them off against each other to keep them in line and not get too powerful. Civ 4 is so much better than the other Civ games for that.

 

[Methos]

Izzy's propensity for stupid declarations of war is also in the XML.

Really? That's very interesting to know. Is there any other pre-set notions that certain AI's follow?

When you finish I wouldn't mind if you either linked the article here or PM me with the link. Thanks.

 

[Methos]

Thank you ndthsmdy. Diplomacy is something I have to work on in the game so that is very interesting to me.

Myself included. I'm trying to pay close attention to Merzbow's posts on his diplomacy stuff but I keep getting confused.

 

[Merzbow]

Are you sure you've seen +7, Merz? If so I would really like to know, because I'm working on a strat article on AI behavior based on the XML code and combining the numbers in the obvious way suggests that HC's max is +6. It'd mean there are modifiers that mess with what's in the XML.

Right now the max religion bonuses shake out like this:

+8--Asoka
+7--Izzy, Mansa
+6--Cathy, Hatty, Capac, Saladin, Washington
+5--Alex, Cyrus, Elizabeth, Frederick, Gandhi, Genghis, Kublai, Louis, Napoleon, Peter, Qin, Vicky
+4--Bismarck, Caesar, FDR, Tokugawa
+3--Mao, Monty

HC's definitely above average, but unless there are modifiers that differ from civ to civ, Asoka, Izzy, and Mansa are even more friendly.

(BTW, good game guys--the fact there's always 15 new posts every time I check in makes it very engaging )

I can't wait for that article. I was pretty sure I'd seen +7, but maybe it was changed in a patch or maybe I was wrong.

Your data above confirms the fact I was wrong to ally with Mao instead of Cyrus (sigh). We should try to correct this by converting Cyrus now.

 

[ndthsmdy]

I will let you know Methos, but at the rate you guys are going this game will be long over by the time I'm done There's a lot of info in there to sort through.

Allying with Mao wasn't necessarily the wrong move here. Cyrus is a pretty good ally, but he can be kind of stingy with certain things (like declaring war for you or tech trading). Mao is not very easily impressed with things you do for him, but he is quicker to go to war and if you can get above +5 he will be pretty good with techs. Each civ seems to have its own strengths and weaknesses as allies, and there's something to be said for Mao being the top dog at the time.

Izzy's values that dictate how easily she'll go to war in general are as high as Monty's and Napoleon's in a majority of cases. Except she loves you a lot more if you have the same religion, and hates you even more if you don't. So Izzy's actually more likely to go to war with a civ that doesn't have her religion than anybody else (despite the other factors, like how strong they are).

Are you guys in Hereditary Rule? The two ways to Capac's heart are having his religion and his favorite civic (+6 max each). Once you're Friendly, he will never declare war on you.

The way to Mao's heart also appears to be the favorite civic (+7 max, tied for highest with Gandhi). Too bad it's Police State.

 

[Liquidated]

From playing I find that mao is a good ally. If he likes you he likes you, I've never seen him flake out on you like oh I've seen nappy do.

In general, he is pretty honorable as in if he doesn;t like you, expect him to invade if he has the odds.

imo being on good terms with mao > cyrus in our situation.


Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Thormodr]

It has been 24 hours. Would you guys like to me to play the next turn?
Let me know. We are kicking butt. ^^

 

[Methos]

It has been 24 hours. Would you guys like to me to play the next turn?
Let me know. We are kicking butt. ^^

Well, according to his profile his last activity was:

Last Activity: Jan 06, 2006 07:54 AM

So he has been on. I guess my vote would be to just skip him. It looks like he has fully retracted.

 

[Thormodr]

Ok. I will wait for a consensus. I don't want to be a jerk about playing.
I seem to notice that some SGs lose steam if they aren't played regularly so I wanted to keep it moving.

 

[Liquidated]

go thor, should have gone last night imo.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Thormodr]

Ok then. I will play. If it was a bad decision, grs can play the turn after me. I'll get down to work soon.

Oh yeah...Got it!

 

[grs]

As I said, I will step out of this game. Good luck.

 

[Merzbow]

Good luck Thor. We're close to the time when stuff gets really tricky in high-level OCC...

 

[Thormodr]

Ok, here we go. Mmmm...nice music. I am impressed with the music in Civ4.

Turn 0 (1200 AD)
Pre flight check. Everything looks AOK. 2 turns until the University is finished, 6 turns until Economics and +54 GPP/turn. Cool!

Turn 1 (1210 AD)
Islam has been founded in Xian. Good thing it was Mao I guess. I don't think that really affects us at all. I check the price for a peace treaty with Vicky and it is Paper. I tell her no.

Turn 2 (1220 AD)
The University is built and our beakers go from 234 to 266. I start building Oxford Univeristy. It will take 10 turns as no one has any Stone for trade.

Turn 3 (1230 AD)
Berlin grows and will grow again in 7 turns. It is at 13/14 for health. Beakers are now at 273. ^^ I trade Music to Mao for Compass and 220 gold. I figure that will help us get Astronomy (and the Observatory) faster and will give us funds for a peace treaty or emergency upgrade. I talk to Vicky and her price for Peace is now only 70 gold. I accept as I am cautious by nature. Mao is laying a beating on Vicky so I am hoping she will fight better if we are not a consideration for her. I am worried Mao could become too powerful.

Turn 4 (1240 AD)
Peace reigns and all is boring. Zzzzzzz...

Turn 5 (1250 AD)
Economics is in. I start on Replaceable Parts, and see if I can trade for Optics and then pursue Astronomy. I revolt to get Free Trade. I figure an extra trade route might be useful. Pytheas the Great Merchant is merged with Berlin for +1 food, +6 gold and +3 beakers. Nice ^^

Turn 6 (1260 AD)
Anarchy over. We now make +10 gold/turn at 90% science so I crank that up to 100%. We now make +1 gold/turn. I trade Paper to Mao for Optics (Even trade at 897 beakers each) and on a whim ask for 20 gold extra. He gives it to me. Nice guy. I then switch to Astronomy which will take 10 turns.
Hmmm...The City Display Screen doesn't show our Great Merchant. Our GPP are still at +54/turn. Our income is up though as are our beakers. I'm not sure if anything is wrong or not.

Turn 7 (1270 AD)
Confusionism has spread in Yayoi, A Persian City Northwest of us bordering Incan lands. Cool!

Turn 8 (1280 AD)
Nothing to see here. Move along.

Turn 9 (1290 AD)
The Chinese capture York. England is cut in two and is in jepardy of being wiped out altogether if they don't make peace I fear.

Turn 10 (1300 AD)
Berlin grows again. It is now at max health. I micromanage to get Oxford University in 2 turns instead of 3. Plains forest instead of grassland cottage.
Milenko scouts out York. Size 10 in Chinese hands with a lot of troops coming for Warwick soon. Vicky is taking a dirty sweaty beating.

Turn 11 (1310 AD)
HC comes begging for Liberalism. I consider this for a long time. Liberalism enables Free Religion. When he discovers that, and I am sure he will everntually, he may switch and we will lose the +6 bonus from common religion. So I figure it is best to improve relations now to prepare for the future. *Sigh* I give it to him. We get a higher trade relations bonus (now +4), You gave us help bonus +1 (I think it had disappeared before) and +1 for sharing tech bonus. He is also friendly now.
If I screwed up, I apologize. We do have better relations with the charity case now, being at +12 now, up 3 points.

Turn 12 (1320 AD)
Oxford University in. I decide on an Aqueduct in 3 turns as we are at max health. +2 health will allow us to keep growing. As well, when we finish it, Astronomy will be finished. Our beakers are now 455/turn and our GPP are 57/turn. Our 3 Trade routes are all +4 and with Persia.

Turn 13 (1330 AD)
Mao completes the Islamic Shrine. Nothing else going on.

Turn 14 (1340 AD)
Mao adopts Merchantilism. That is all. It's all Mao all the time.

Turn 15 (1350 AD)
Astronomy is in. I was not sure what to choose so I chose Replaceable parts in 5 turns. Please feel free to change that. Scientific Method is 7 turns away. It will obsolete the Great Library but it will get us closer to Physics.
Rene Descartes the drunken fart is born in Berlin. Another Great Scientist.
As it is the 15th turn, I will let the next person merge him. I think that is proper SG etiquette.

Notes:
We have broken 1000 points and are closing in on Vicky. Cool!
HC will trade Engineering. That may be useful to get and I think may help us get Physics faster.
I am working a Plains forest instead of a Cottage to get the Observatory in 4 turns instead of 5.

That is all. I hope everything is to everyone's satisfaction. If it isn't, let me know so I can learn from it. Thanks.

Here are a few pics from the Gameturn. One of Rene Descartes, one of our beautiful city and one of our demographics.

 

[Thormodr]

Here is the save. Enjoy!

 

[Merzbow]

Neat. The city display has a limit on the number of joined specialists it shows, probably why you can't see the merchant.

Probably best to go for Scientific Method now, parts is nice for lumbermills but we won't really be hurting for production until we get closer to space. Remeber, the Internet will give us everything, and stuff like parts that we really want before then we can usually trade techs for that are a couple levels back in the beeline.

I am worried about Mao. I did lose a game in the exact situation we're worried about here - in that game Mao took over another AI and soon was more than double the score of everyone else. Soon nobody else would declare on him because they were afraid of his 'military might'. I'll see if I can bribe Mao to STOP his war with Vicky, then possibly build up Cyrus as a counterweight.

Merzbow (playing)
Liquidated (on deck)
Methos
Thormodr (just played)