Military before alphabet?

[dylanmeditates]

I know that it totally kicks ass to go writing really early to beeline math or aesth or whatever, and it's convenient to not research hunting and archery, and even sometimes to skip bronze working until tech trading, but what about those damn barbs?

I was just playing a game where I saw that I could settle 6 cities and peacefully tech for a while, but only if I placed one risky city a little far away early on. I have two cities and was finishing up aesthetics (I had marble), I settle this critical city right next to cyrus. I have 1 warrior in each of my 3 cities, my capital has built a library and granary and my second city has a monument. Cyrus had a settler one tile away from my third city. He has to use his settler for a crappy city nearby, then declares on me with a stack of swords and spears, which easily take my third city, and i have no metal or horses even with bronze working.

What I could have done is instead of writing, gone archery and instead of granary and library in the capital, archers. Then fortified my far third city with archers and continued on peacefully without any DOW from cyrus. I would have been a handful of turns behind in tech, but I would not be dead too.

Thoughts?

 

[Anysense]

Cyrus does not plot at plesed. Give him a tech or perform a cheap trade. I believe that this is far better as long as you can ensure your safety this way.

 

[Kallikrates]

you cannot trade/bribe if neither has alpha. I thought the idea was to built 4-6 chariots/axes and then the AI will usually not declare so early.
(This seems mainly not to appear too weak. The AI will be more powerful often but you will not be so weak that the "easy target" (we will destroy you, you fool) is triggered.)

I have been doing mostly isolation games for the last weeks but I had games ruined by early dow so while I tend to avoid hunting/archery I almost always go for bronze (also for chopping) and/or AH. I also frequently roll maps where AH is absolutely necessary for city growth (pig, sheep or cow). Of course, if you are out of luck you will have neither copper nor horses nearby. But this is comparably rare, I'd say. In such a case (or with Mali), archery is recommended. But those will often be tough games because of clearly suboptimal tech paths, I guess.

 

[Izuul]

Building some units to prevent getting DoWed doesn't work on higher difficulties. The AI just builds too many units too quickly and their power is always going to be much higher until you reach a rush tech and build up for an attack.

As for the original post - you seem to be asking two different questions there. #1 centered around barb defense, and #2 i guess was about early DoWs and how to prevent or defend against them.

Barb defense - Sometimes on deity you can get away with just warriors since the deity AI have so many cities and units spawn busting that barbs may not even become an issue. When barbs are going to be an issue though you need to make that your #1 priority. Try for either horses or copper and then, if you have to, grab Archery fast. Spending a few extra beakers is better than getting overrun by barbs early and losing the game before it ever really even gets started.

As for avoiding or preparing for early DoWs... Anytime you settle aggressively near a Deity AI you really increase your chances of getting attacked. Even more so if you settle up against one of the really aggressive AI. Cyrus isn't quite as bad as some, but he's still pretty dangerous. Border tensions often can not be avoided, but planting an early aggressive city accelerates the process and increases the window for an AI to get ticked off and start plotting before you have access to techs like Alpha and Currency that greatly help in avoiding wars. If you plant a really aggressive blocking city on Deity you should be prepared to defend it (settling on a hill helps if possible) and also to deal with the consequences of an early war. Having to spend hammers on military units that could otherwise be going into other things can be costly, so the gains need to be pretty significant.

 

[Lennier]

I find that when I build just chariots for barb defense, barb spearmen stream in from the fog. (If I build axemen, axemen come in from the fog, but that's an even fight.) So if I don't have copper, I need to build the GW or get overrun by barbs. (I play huge maps, so fogbusting is extremely difficult.)

 

[dylanmeditates]

So I guess lesson learned is that if you settle aggressive blocking cities (as izuul so aptly names them), you must have a nice little stack to support it. Know ahead of time when you are building libraries, granaries etc when you might have urgent need for a stack and if you should forgo those buildings for units.

But perhaps the even more critical question is when teching- as opposed to knowing that you need to build axes instead of libraries, you need to know when to tech archery as opposed to writing for example. It's not always an easy call. In the op game I made the wrong decision by depending on warriors (no metal or horses).

I'm starting to think I've made the wrong call a few times; in certain situations I should immediately tech archery if no copper or horses show.

 

[Framesticker]

Finishing Aesthetics with 2 cities is probably the biggest mistake here, not the tech path.

Aesthetics is quite an advanced tech and should be researched only after you already have most (if not all) the basic techs you need for infrastructure and survival.
Consider the following:

You have a jungled Gem, Cow, Wheat, Corn and Crab. What are the techs you need? Iron Working, Animal Husbandry, Farming, Fishing and (to some extent) Sailing. Would you not pursue anything else before going for IW? Of course not! The more reasonable, higher leveled player would actually go for Aesthetics and try to trade for IW (and other techs). However, he would only do so once he feels reasonably safe in both defending against barbarians AND expansion, which you obviously weren't.

 

[dylanmeditates]

ok framesticker... i'm curious exactly which techs you think i'm missing before going aesth. the only thing i was missing was archery, which is the whole point of my post

 

[Izuul]

That depends a lot on the game and the leader you start with.

 

[Seraiel]

There is basically nothing you can do against a DoW from a Deity AI before you get Alpha. Building many Archers ofc. is possible, but it cripples your empire's expansion, so will lead to later problems.

If I were you, I'd simply abandon the game because of bad luck. Not every round of Deity can be won, and getting neither Copper nor Horses is actually enough good reason to abandon that game.

 

[Windsor]

Pre-alpha there's you can always use the cheap trick of gifting a crap city to prevent a war or end an existing one. It does feel close to cheating, but its one of the few diplomatic options available at the time.

No blocking city will ever be worth an early DoW, but stock AI is so dumb that defending with only archers is viable. I would however only bother to play those games if you already are confident on deity.

 

[Izuul]

There's no way to beg pre-Alpha though. Sure you can gift a city, but that that will only prevent a war under two conditions. 1) The AI in question isn't already plotting, and 2) The AI does not plot at pleased.

 

[Seraiel]

I find gifting away one's 2nd or 3rd city way too expensive. In this case, it's even worse, because Cyrus would have gotten it, he's IMP, he will have too many cities no matter what.

And gifting only works for 1 AI, so it doesn't help if 2 or more a plotting. Also: One can gift away a city at 2500 BC earliest, 1500 BC one usually already has Alpha, so it's a very expensive measure for a very short diplomatic advantage.

 

[Bjarkov]

I find gifting away one's 2nd or 3rd city way too expensive. In this case, it's even worse, because Cyrus would have gotten it, he's IMP, he will have too many cities no matter what.

And gifting only works for 1 AI, so it doesn't help if 2 or more a plotting. Also: One can gift away a city at 2500 BC earliest, 1500 BC one usually already has Alpha, so it's a very expensive measure for a very short diplomatic advantage.

I feel obliged to pitch in: Gifting a city can also do other things. Walking a settler as far as you can and place a blocker city under AI #2's nose, then gifting that city to your neighbour AI #1 on your other side, can accomplish a few things:
1) Better relations with AI #1
2) Worse relations between the two AI ("Our close borders spark tension" + higher DoW chance due to longer shared border)
3) High city maintenance for AI #1 slowing down his progress
4) Blocking AI #2
5) AI #1 wanting to connect the city to his empire, building roads inside your borders in the process if open borders (sign open borders..)