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Military Tactics T94-T120

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, May 31, 2009.

  1. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Do we have an ETA on steel from Team Cav? And any update on Team Cav’s progress on amassing an army? And where are we with respect to our armed forces? We have been building a good number of catapults recently, but I have no idea how many we have.
     
  2. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Team Cav should have Steel in 5-6 turns.

    Our army is:
    3 mace
    2 spear
    7 Cata
    1 ele
    1 chariot
    1 xbow

    We are building 3 knights 1 pike and 1 cata right now
     
  3. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Thanks for the intel. I think we get those knights in around 3 or 4 turns. My suggestion is to wait until 1 turn is left on the knights and then switch production to catapults. This should let us build three more catapults before we get Steel from Team Cav. If this pans out we will have a total of 11 catapults to upgrade (how much $ does that cost).

    Also how do we want to plan the timing for the upgrade? Ideally we switch to Theo before we finish the current production so that the knights and catapults can benefit from the +2 exp. This will be most useful for the catapults. However, since we get Oxford in 7 turns I don’t think the timing will work out right here. Is there anyway too speed production of Oxford by 1 turn so that this timing works out better.

    Otherwise I think our next unit priorities should be an xbow (good for both city defense and those highly upgraded Sancta Maces) or musket.

    Team Cav said they were about to get a Great Person – did that happen and what type was it? If it was a GM they will be sending it our way pretty soon.

    Do we have any updates from Team Cav about their military production?
     
  4. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    hm interesting... I have a question:

    You know how if you are in the process of building a unit that becomes obsolete by a new tech, your work queue changes to the new unit enabled by the tech?

    I think cats are obsoleted by cannons. Is there a way to build a bunch of cats, wait for 1 turn to completion, get steel, and receive some 'free' hammers via our work queue being turned into cannons?

    I'm not sure how the equation works.
     
  5. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    This is a bit hard to work out but it looks like the upgrade cost for a catapult to a cannon is 170 gold. Pretty steep. The page I took this from also indicates that trebuchets cost 80 to upgrade to cannons. However, since a catapult is 40 hammers and trebuchet is 80 hammers it is pretty much a wash.

    In order to upgrade all of our catapults we are going to need a lot of $. Getting that GM would really help – I am regretting the detour to Divine Right.


    On the subject of $ - how much $ we can expect from Team Cav once they get steel? If it is only like 100 per turn it will be a very long time before we can upgrade our units. That will force us to run 100% gold. If they can afford to be generous – 400+ gold per turn, then we can continue running 100% science.

    If we are going to have to run 100% gold, maybe we should hold off on finishing Oxford for a few turns. After all, what is the point of having Oxford if it is only multiplying the effect of the Great Library. Depending on the timing, it might make sense to build something else in Haz right now and then finish Oxford while we run 100% gold. Then by the time we finish Oxford we will have also upgraded our units and can switch back to 100% science. During the down time, Haz could build more units (navy or muskets would be my choice). Another idea would be to build a bank for the 65% bonus for the period when we are running 100% gold.
     
  6. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    @ milko - I don't think you can get freebies. If you had 10 hammers into a catapult and then teched steel you would have 10 hammers into a cannon.
     
  7. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    damnrunner, can you confirm that? I thought it might have been a percentage-based system.
    Like if Cats cost 40 hammers and Cannons 120, and you are 75% done with a cat when steel gets researched, you are credited with 120 x .75 = 90 hammers.

    I'm probably wrong but it might be worth it to find out.
     
  8. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I'll double check on vanilla.
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    To follow up from last week - this is why I support an attack with Cannons. It is going to be about 10 turns until we can tech rifles and once we tech rifles we will need number of turns to build up a decent number of Red Coats. While it would great to attack with a combined and overwhelming force of cannons, red coats, and Cavalry - we need to consider what Sancta could do while we tech rifles and build redcoats.

    In my mind the question is attacking in 5-10 turns with cannons. Or 15-25 turns with redcoats.

    We can assume they know we are going to attack soon, so any assumption that they will maintain the status quo on their side is misguided. I anticipate that Sancta will shortly be teching Chemistry followed by steel and military science (or maybe MS 1st and then steel). If anyone can give an estimate on sancta's tech rate that would be very useful. My estimate is that they will take 10-15 turns to get this technology. Once they have these techs they can counter our invasion with cannons and grenadiers. While Red Coats do get a bonus vs. gunpowder units - grenadiers can attack redcoats quite successfully. Cannons I believe are a greater threat as they can decimate our attacking stacks.

    For comparison:
    Attacking in 5-10 turns.
    We have ~10 cannons and ~10 support units.
    Sancta has catapults, maces, muskets, knights, longbows
    Team Cav has ????

    Attacking 15-25
    We have ~15 cannons, ~10 rifles, and ~10 support units.
    Sancta has cannons, grenadiers, and possibly cuirassiers
    Team Cav has ????

    Lets assume that in 5-10 turns Sancta has 5-10 catapults. That would not significantly damage our stack. But in 15-25 turns they could easily have 10-20 cannons which would greatly damage our stack and they would probably be able to completely destroy it if they struck 1st.

    We just don't have the same level of production as Sancta and if both our team and theirs commits to a war footing they will be able to outproduce us. Or advantage is the proximity to the front line and temporary superior technology. Both of these advantages disappear over time. While Team Cav can match Sancta's production - if we wait too long we risk becoming bit players in a war between two super powers.

    Not only do I believe that an earlier attack will be more successful, but I also anticipate that the sooner we can attack Sancta - the less able Sancta will be able to counter attack once they have equivalent technology. I think a combined Cav Kaz army will be able to overrun TKY, Zero, and Dragon Tears. By that point Sancta will probably have cannons and we will need to regroup. But with 3 less cities Sancta will have significantly less production. Also, at this point, a counter attack will be more difficult as our forces and Team Cav forces will be united at Dragon Tears. If we wait to attack, our army and Team Cav's army will be more vulnerable to attack as we move in from the South and Cav comes in from the West.
     
  10. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Good points Damnrunner. If we attack early I would want to know that CAV is going to go all out. It would really suck if CAV attacked half-hearted initially. We would face the full brunt of a SANCTA counter attack and run out of steam after razing Zero.

    We should get CAV to agree to a.) attack a few turns before us and b.) promises to gift us the cities they capture. CAV could attack in 7 turns and we could attack in 10. We should be able to get some upgrade cash from the GM by then. I'd also want to make sure we can sink any raiding party sent along the coast.
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Completely agree that we need to know Team Cav’s battle plan. Going in alone now – or later for that matter would be foolish.

    I think we should tell Team Cav that we will probably need a few more turns than they will before we are ready to attack. Cite the need to upgrade units, complete units in build queues, and move units to the front. We should also say that we think a staggered attack makes sense as it allows both of our armies to strike TKY and Zero simultaneously. We have much less distance to cover so by the time Team Cav can approach TKY we can assemble our army and move in on Zero.

    We should ask Team Cav the following. The details of what forces they have ready to attack. The soonest they can attack TKY (that is the important date from our perspective-not when they declare war). Any intel they have on Sancta’s army. And any intel they expect to get in the near future – spys on the way, etc.

    We should tell Team Cav the intel we have and expect to get. And they size of the army we expect to have assembled in X number of turns.
     
  12. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Also good point on the city gifting. They already committed to gifting TKY haven't they. We do need to confirm that though.

    On naval stuff. Haz can probably build 1 or maybe 2 ships by the time we are at war. The fish city can maybe whip one. And we can upgrade those that we already have. What will that give us? About 5 ships I think? Not great but a decent deterrence. I think it will have to do. If we keep our knights in reserve we can pull them back to our coastal cities if Sancta ships do show up.
     
  13. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Slaze seems primed to attack now so we should "reluctantly agree" to a "risky early attack" if CAV agrees to what we want. We should tell him we will step off as soon as we cash in our GM for upgrade cash. Once we know which turn this will be we can get CAV to DoW 3-4 turns before then. And yes they have previously stated we get all captured cities so we want to get this set in stone.
     
  14. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Current Status of our Forces:

    TARAZ FORCE
    3 Maces
    6 Catapults (upgrade 1020 :gold:)
    1 Crossbow
    1 Spear (upgrade 95 :gold:)
    1 Longbow

    HAZ FORCE (heartland defense)
    1 Elephant
    1 Catapult (upgrade 170 :gold:)
    1 Spear (upgrade 95 :gold:)
    1 Archer (upgrade 95 :gold:)
    1 Warrior (upgrade 185 :gold:)

    Fleet
    1 Caravel (upgrade 110 :gold:)
    1 Trireme (upgrade 140 :gold:)
    1 Galley (upgrade 110 :gold:)

    Garrisons in other cities
    1 Longbow
    1 Archer
    4 Warriors
    1 Scout (what should we do with this guy, disband?)
    ------------------------------------------------------

    In the build Queue:

    Pav- Knight 7, Musket 1
    Aktau- Cannon 10, Knight 1
    Oskemen- Knight 1, Musket 4
    Shym- Musket 4, Pike 1
    Taraz- Longbow 2
    Kzyl- Musket 6, Cannon 6

    Fortunately only 2 catapults were in progress.
    -------------------------------------------------

    Overall our army is pretty weak. The Taraz Force is the only offensive units we have and some of it needs to stay behind to garrison Taraz. If we faced a serious naval threat we'd need at least 800 :gold: to upgrade the Haz force and the fleet- how much should we keep in reserve?
     
  15. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    As soon as we have Theo we should switch the queue to the 1 turn build units. That would give us 2 knights, a pike, and a musket.

    For Haz - If we build frigates I think we should be able to build 2 or 3 of them before we are at war with Sancta. I think that will be enough so that we won't need to upgrade our other ships.

    Maybe keep 500 in reserve to upgrade reserve units around Haz or in Taraz - depending on where Sancta counter attacks.
     
  16. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    In this series of posts I make the case for an aggressive use of the Nationalism and the Draft. The idea is to switch to Nationalism on the final turn of our golden age. We start drafting units as soon as we have rifling. This may be as soon as we switch Nationalism or it may be 1 or 2 turns later.

    Before going into details, I think we can draft 14 redcoats over 8 turns and a total of 24 rifles over 16 turns. We end up with some unhappiness, but it is fairly manageable. Monarchy helps here a lot as we can shuffle around units to benefit from the +1 happiness benefit they give under Monarchy. This will give us a huge boost in power and is far more redcoats (2640 hammers worth) than we can hope to build in a comparable period of time. The cities that get screwed the most on the unhappiness are the most marginal. We will however need to focus on max growth in several of our cities (Fish, Taraz, Whale) for this to work.

    Some background:
    Each draft give +3 unhappiness which lasts for 10 turns. Cities must be pop 6 to draft. The 1st draft in each city generates no net unhappiness (the +3 unhappiness is cancelled out by the -1 unhappiness from population loss and the +2 happiness from a barracks). I am not totally sure about the mechanics of how draft unhappiness works when you have multiple drafts in one city. I assume that it works the same way as slavery (each new draft adds a new 10 turns of +3 unhappiness). For example: if on turn 1 you draft the +3 unhappiness will go away after turn 10. If you draft in the same city again on turn 6. This +3 unhappiness will go away after 10 turns and the initial +3 unhappiness will go away 4 turns after the 2nd draft unhappiness has gone away (essentially 14 turns later). If I am mistaken about these mechanics please let me know.
     
  17. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I am basing my assumptions on recent screen shots of each city and am estimating city size 6 turns out. Monarchy also gives happiness based on units in each city. I am assuming one unit in each city.

    City size net positive happiness
    Haz 14 +0
    Pav 9 +1
    Akt 8 +1
    (potentially more depending on when slavery unhappiness goes away)
    Osk 9 +1
    Shym 11 +1
    Taraz 6 +5
    (we need to build more farms here and focus on growth for this to work)
    Aty 6 +4
    Kyz 7 +3
    (we need a unit in this city, move over a warrior from Haz?)
    Fish 5 +4
    (I am not totally sure when the city will reach size 6. But with a lighthouse it can increase once ~ every 4 turns)
    Whale 3 +7
    (even with a farm and the whale I do not think this city will grow to size 6 in time – but we can probably get 1 draft in at towards the end though)
     
  18. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I know this may be a bit ambitious but we only get one chance to use the draft. I think it is very doable and very worth the sacrifice.

    1st turn in nationalism
    Osk
    Pav
    Shym
    These cities will recover happiness on turn 11.

    2
    Aty
    Atk
    Kyz
    Recover on turn 12

    3
    Aty (2nd draft)
    Atk (2nd draft
    Kyz (2nd draft)
    Recover on turn 13 (1st draft now recovers on turn 22)

    4
    Taraz
    Fish
    Haz
    Recover on turn 14

    5 none
    6 none
    7 none

    8
    Fish (2nd draft)
    Taraz (2nd draft)
    Recovers on turn 18 (1st draft now recovers on turn 24)

    9 none
    10 none

    11
    Osk, Pav, Shym recover
    draft these cities again will recover on turn 21

    12
    Whale City
    Recovers on turn 22

    13 Aty, Atk, Kyz unhappiness from 2nd draft recovers
    draft again will recover on turn 23 (unhappiness from 1st draft goes away on turn 30)
    Switch civics back to Bureaucracy

    14
    Haz recovers, draft again (recovers on turn 24)
    Fish (3rd draft)
    Taraz (3rd draft)
    Fish and Taraz recover on turn 24 (2nd draft now recovers on turn 28) (1st draft now recovers on turn 32)
    Switch civics out of Nationalism and Theo back to Bureaucracy and OR

    15 anarchy
    16 anarchy

    17 back to normal
     
  19. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    +3 unhappiness in:
    Haz (recovers on turn 24)
    Osk, Pav, Shym (till turn 21)
    Whale city (till turn 22)

    +6 unhappiness in:
    Aty, Atk, Kyz (till turn 23, then -3 till turn 30)

    +9 unhappiness in:
    Fish (till turn 24, then -6 till turn 28, then -3 till turn 32)
    Taraz (till turn 24, then -6 till turn 28, then -3 till turn 32)
     
  20. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Turn # drafted this turn - total drafted (cities drafted this turn)
    1 +3 - 3 total (Osk, Pav, Shym)
    2 +3 - 6 total (Atk, Aty, Kyz)
    3 +3 - 9 total (Atk, Aty, Kyz)
    4 +3 - 12 total (Taraz, Fish, Haz)
    5 +0 - 12 total
    6 +0 - 12 total
    7 +0 - 12 total
    8 +2 - 14 total (Fish, Taraz)
    9 +0 - 14 total
    10 +0 - 14 total
    11 +3 - 17 total (Osk, Pav, Shym)
    12 +1 - 18 total (whale)
    13 +3 - 21 total (Atk, Aty, Kyz)
    14 +3 - 24 total (Haz, Fish, Taraz)


    Total drafted units per city
    Haz 2
    Pav 2
    Akt 3
    Osk 2
    Shym 2
    Taraz 3
    Aty 3
    Kyz 3
    Fish 3
    Whale1
     

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