Difficulty, as far as I can see, affects AI unit strength vs barbarians and neutrals, as well as your food needs per population. On higher levels the AI gets some bonuses that ramp up per age, too. More or less the standard stuff you'd expect from difficulty levels.
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Millennia - Steam Next Fest Demo | Live Now!
- Thread starter PDX Katten
- Start date
My impression remains negative but I'm still a bit more hopeful for Millennia than for Humankind. All in all, I think Humankind is barely a strategy game - it's more of a nation-building sandbox. There are quite a few choices but none that matter in a strategic sense, it's more about what flavor of buildings and victory you want. Play however you want, look at the (very) pretty terrain and cities without concerning yourself with much planning.
Millennia is definitely a strategy game. There are decisions to make, there are tradeoffs, there are systems that will punish you for neglecting some aspect, etc. My disappointment so far is mostly about the mechanics being so derivative. The first hour in a new game shouldn't feel as familiar as it does because of Civ. Cities, or rather regional capitals, are mechanically a near identical copy of Civ 1-5 cities. Combat is similar to Call to Power, which I loved, but with a weaker implementation. Production/goods chains are a fun addition but not new, they seem to be about on par with Colonization's level if not less than that. National Spirits are also fun but, despite the different presentation, that's mechanically little different from Civ5's policy trees. I still have some hope for the Ages mechanic, but the first three aren't impressive - Age of Heroes sounded fun when unlocking it, but then its mechanics amounted to some new goodie huts on the map that a specific unit can pop.
So we'll see - I am going to be following this closely despite the initial disappointment. It has a great team. I even interviewed the lead back when he was working on something then known as RTS3, so my high esteem for the design team goes back many years.
Millennia is definitely a strategy game. There are decisions to make, there are tradeoffs, there are systems that will punish you for neglecting some aspect, etc. My disappointment so far is mostly about the mechanics being so derivative. The first hour in a new game shouldn't feel as familiar as it does because of Civ. Cities, or rather regional capitals, are mechanically a near identical copy of Civ 1-5 cities. Combat is similar to Call to Power, which I loved, but with a weaker implementation. Production/goods chains are a fun addition but not new, they seem to be about on par with Colonization's level if not less than that. National Spirits are also fun but, despite the different presentation, that's mechanically little different from Civ5's policy trees. I still have some hope for the Ages mechanic, but the first three aren't impressive - Age of Heroes sounded fun when unlocking it, but then its mechanics amounted to some new goodie huts on the map that a specific unit can pop.
So we'll see - I am going to be following this closely despite the initial disappointment. It has a great team. I even interviewed the lead back when he was working on something then known as RTS3, so my high esteem for the design team goes back many years.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
This pretty much parallels my feeling about the game: some interesting new ideas about the 'traditional' 4X historicalish game genre, but spotty implementation (so far) and an over-all feeling that I've Seen Almost All Of This Before in other, sometimes very much older, games. I would love to be favorably surprised by the final product, but right now I am primarily going to be mining the examples of play so far for ideas and comparisons to improve other games (looking at Civ VII, however far away it lurks over the Release Horizon)
Just for an example, the Production Chain mechanic haas been favorably commented on, and it is far more in depth than anything I've seen before in a game on this Grand Strategy scale. But it's all related directly to Resources on the map, with (again, so far) no nod to the development of 'artificial' goods that affected Production, Trade, Luxury-desires in a Faction/Civilization. Raw Clay was turned into not just pottery and bricks, but also Decorated Pottery almost as soon as the potter's wheel was invented, and that decorated pottery was traded as a luxury good. A host of materials, from seashells to gold and silver, ivory and gemstones, were turned into jewelry and decorated objects that were diplomatically gifted, traded, distributed to gain positive relations with both your own and other Faction's governments and populations. This on-going and increasing substitution of manufactured resources/goods for natural resources started early and accelerated later, and as far as I know has never been modeled or depicted in any 4X game, except very generically. It would have tied in very well with Millennia's Production Chains, providing a really unique in-game mechanism to enhance the resource, trade, and production systems. But if it is in the game, it is not apparent in the revealed first three Ages.
Just for an example, the Production Chain mechanic haas been favorably commented on, and it is far more in depth than anything I've seen before in a game on this Grand Strategy scale. But it's all related directly to Resources on the map, with (again, so far) no nod to the development of 'artificial' goods that affected Production, Trade, Luxury-desires in a Faction/Civilization. Raw Clay was turned into not just pottery and bricks, but also Decorated Pottery almost as soon as the potter's wheel was invented, and that decorated pottery was traded as a luxury good. A host of materials, from seashells to gold and silver, ivory and gemstones, were turned into jewelry and decorated objects that were diplomatically gifted, traded, distributed to gain positive relations with both your own and other Faction's governments and populations. This on-going and increasing substitution of manufactured resources/goods for natural resources started early and accelerated later, and as far as I know has never been modeled or depicted in any 4X game, except very generically. It would have tied in very well with Millennia's Production Chains, providing a really unique in-game mechanism to enhance the resource, trade, and production systems. But if it is in the game, it is not apparent in the revealed first three Ages.
MrRadar
Deity
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4th run done.
Even if Millennia does not bring some immediately apparent innovation, I think it does a very good job taking and combining what was best in all present games and cutting off as much bs that was in them as possible.
For example, embarcation/disembarcation mechanics prevents that nonsense display and unexpected disembarcations that are present even now in Civ VI. When a higher level building appears as a result of technological development, you can just upgrade the lower level buildings in older cities and build the new buildings outright in newer cities, no need to go through the entire charade of, e. g., Ancient Walls->Medieval Walls->Renaissance Walls. Even Humankind has preserved this kind of crap, although it comes disguised as already built in new founded cities. Btw, Old World also requires to go through the whole chain. But why, why on earth I must first go through this mandatory building of the wooden field outhouse first, if I already possess the technology to build an excellent Japanese WC, which on top of everything else can also sing me a jolly commercial, give me a relaxing massage and do a quick medical checkup while I'm doing my business? Full marks to Millennia in this respect.
I've just touched the start of trading mechanics. It looks like you can send resourses between your cities, and there's a proper international trade. For example, if one of your cities is rich in something, you can send the surplus elswhere to make better use of it. I will cry happy tears if that's really like that.
Very true. Unit movement is smooth and easy. No arbitrary worked tiles range. No unnecessary manual counting. No unnecessary clics. This game is a pleasure to play, so far
Even if Millennia does not bring some immediately apparent innovation, I think it does a very good job taking and combining what was best in all present games and cutting off as much bs that was in them as possible.
For example, embarcation/disembarcation mechanics prevents that nonsense display and unexpected disembarcations that are present even now in Civ VI. When a higher level building appears as a result of technological development, you can just upgrade the lower level buildings in older cities and build the new buildings outright in newer cities, no need to go through the entire charade of, e. g., Ancient Walls->Medieval Walls->Renaissance Walls. Even Humankind has preserved this kind of crap, although it comes disguised as already built in new founded cities. Btw, Old World also requires to go through the whole chain. But why, why on earth I must first go through this mandatory building of the wooden field outhouse first, if I already possess the technology to build an excellent Japanese WC, which on top of everything else can also sing me a jolly commercial, give me a relaxing massage and do a quick medical checkup while I'm doing my business? Full marks to Millennia in this respect.
I've just touched the start of trading mechanics. It looks like you can send resourses between your cities, and there's a proper international trade. For example, if one of your cities is rich in something, you can send the surplus elswhere to make better use of it. I will cry happy tears if that's really like that.
Very true. Unit movement is smooth and easy. No arbitrary worked tiles range. No unnecessary manual counting. No unnecessary clics. This game is a pleasure to play, so far
Revolutionist_8
King
I agree 100%. What I still like the most is the "freedom" and the wide variety to make things. You have tons of choices, lot of options are given to you, and you choose what do you make and how. There is no clear best way, or the usual "order of chores" which gives you 99% of the time the best result (build this building, build that building, now train a worker, now train a warrior, then go with this building). I tried ambitious settling with settlers and taking minor nations via military, as well as tried expanding via diplomacy (for example with envoys) and other means (for example with pioneers) while focusing on my capital region. Both of these options have their ups and downs, and feels equally interesting for me.4th run done.
Even if Millennia does not bring some immediately apparent innovation, I think it does a very good job taking and combining what was best in all present games and cutting off as much bs that was in them as possible.
For example, embarcation/disembarcation mechanics prevents that nonsense display and unexpected disembarcations that are present even now in Civ VI. When a higher level building appears as a result of technological development, you can just upgrade the lower level buildings in older cities and build the new buildings outright in newer cities, no need to go through the entire charade of, e. g., Ancient Walls->Medieval Walls->Renaissance Walls. Even Humankind has preserved this kind of crap, although it comes disguised as already built in new founded cities. Btw, Old World also requires to go through the whole chain. But why, why on earth I must first go through this mandatory building of the wooden field outhouse first, if I already possess the technology to build an excellent Japanese WC, which on top of everything else can also sing me a jolly commercial, give me a relaxing massage and do a quick medical checkup while I'm doing my business? Full marks to Millennia in this respect.
I've just touched the start of trading mechanics. It looks like you can send resourses between your cities, and there's a proper international trade. For example, if one of your cities is rich in something, you can send the surplus elswhere to make better use of it. I will cry happy tears if that's really like that.
Very true. Unit movement is smooth and easy. No arbitrary worked tiles range. No unnecessary manual counting. No unnecessary clics. This game is a pleasure to play, so far
The scale how much things can go differently is absolutely huge, and I absolutely love it. For example, had a very aggressive wide run, picking Raiders, ignoring everything else and go full berserk. Took enormous territories quickly, but was behind in tech, had a poor economy and experienced a very high unrest (even my starting region rebelled and formed a new nation lol, I tried it intentionally). Next game: the total opposite. Barely even expand beyond my small starting valley, never used a single settler, weak army, focused on my capital region with improvements and goods chain, and put all resources into diplomacy and exploration, and tried to utilize that dimension. A totally different experience.
I was wrong on the importance of army composition: fell into the trap of just seeing the numbers below the armies, thinking "Hah, I'm twice as strong, easy-peasy" and my bottom-half was served to me on a silver plate. Didn't bother to check what army I'm attacking, and managed to run into a composition that counters mine. Yes, it's very basic, would like more depth in this, but feels decent overall. Lesson learned... (okay actually not, I did it multiple times even after that, but maybe I'll eventually learn)
Barbs attacked my vassal region and made it free, converting it back into a minor nation. All those efforts with envoys and fighting and everyting went down the drain. I love it! This dynamic is what I like so-so much!
Found some hidden gems as well in my last playthrough, for example a simplified casus belli:
Spoiler justified war :
and there is actually a zoom-in and zoom-out for minimap too! I haven't even noticed it in my first few playthroughs lol
Also, it is most probably not the best looking strategy game ever, but I wouldn't necessarily call it ugly:
Spoiler Age of Heroes :
Last but not least, potatomcwhiskey had a quick go at it again. Someone posted the video in the other thread, but I thought I'd advertise it here as well, because YAY better icons!!! And turn counter for movements (how many turns you reach that tile), influence highlighting (which tile you'll get) on the map. The general feel is still the same, the UI is still wonky in many places, some icons are still ... ugh... and notifications are still aenemic, but good to see some progress (I'm assuming he is using a later build than the demo and hoping that it's not the other way around XD ).
Spoiler video :
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GeeVee
Chieftain
Up till now, I have played 4 games of the Millenia demo and must admit I quite like it. After an initial scepsis (mainly because of the graphics) the game has grown on me. I like the fact that the developers took some of the tried and tested 4X mechanisms, but removed a lot of the boring micromanagement. No more worker/builder micromanagement. No more manual roadbuilding. I feel the game focuses on making the decisions that matter. This speeds up the game imo and makes it easier to stay engaged. Of course a 60 turn demo is not enough to fully evaluate, but the fundamentals for an interesting game with adequate replayability are there imo. I don’t mind that a lot of the mechanics are based on ‘filling the bucket’. It feels kind of board gamey, but I don’t mind because the game is fun and that’s what matters. The game is easy to learn for players with some 4X experience. Things I like: graphics style (after some getting used to), the fact that the UI automatically focuses on the city details when it is in view, the pace of the game. Things I dislike: the combat replay (could be replaced by a summary on mouse over like in CK3), lack of personality of the AI nations, some improvements don’t blend well in the world map. Furthermore, I would like to see some more trade-offs within the national spirits (f.e. buff to A, but negative consequence on…). Also please make sure the improvement points are better integrated in the UI. I often forgot that I had enough points to build a specific improvement. Overall, I didn’t expect it, but I like the game and am looking forward in playing beyond the 60 turn limit.
Bonyduck Campersang
Odd lookin duck
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How is the diplomacy system?
MrRadar
Deity
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- 2,239
It is far too early to tell, we simply can't see it yet, probably, not much space for diplomacy up to and in the Iron Age. But I already love the nuance that you don't declare war outright, but first declare hostilities, meaning that attacks are allowed in neutral territory, but not in national one and you can't yet attack cities, kinda like in Humankind.
If you spawn an Envoy, they can make a neutral city state a vassal - first step into becoming your own region, or they can go to another civ to prepare ground for more sophisticated relations, but the demo is too short to see what it becomes.
Revolutionist_8
King
Pretty basic from what can be deduced from the demo, but there are some interesting mechanics, like the envoy mentioned by MrRadar, which you can assign to foreign nations to open up more diplomatic possibilities (still not a plethora of options so far, but the most important things are there, and there are also some nice synergies with National Spirits and Domain Powers) and the merchant, which is very simple but offers an extra option if you need more wealth. Established envoys also let you import goods from that nation, which can be quite handy.
There are some other things which add a bit more depth, for example declaring war outright gives you a lot of unrest in your capital regions (not right away, but accumulating, from what I can tell), but you can declare justified wars (using envoys and demands) which reduce this unrest. The mentioned declare hostilities is awesome, allows combat in neutral territory without declaring war, giving you options and making the exploration and expansion phase quite a bit more interesting.
Also, the AI seems to be fairly decent actually, declaring hostilities, offering alliances sometimes, being mad if you settle too close to each other or if you're declaring wars (their opinion towards you is reduced). In one of the dev diaries a faction mechanic was also mentioned, which will probably spice up the late game even more (I think it'll be something similar to Civ5 BNW ideologies mechanic, but there is very little information so far).
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Revolutionist_8
King
How do you know about the increasing bonuses per age? It's as if I also read it / heard it somewhere, but don't know if it was for Millenia or for ARA or for both (or I'm going insane
)...
Revolutionist_8
King
Makes sense. What else can you reverse-engineer?
Do we know if there will be multiple gamespeed options? That is kinda mandatory in a 4X in my opinion, so hopefully Millenia will also have it, slower pacing especially.
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Game settings appear pretty simple, there's just the usual map size and pay count, I don't see any pace/gamsespeed, though there's also an Advanced Start option like in Civ4. This appears to have been initially implemented for a demo event, but there are advanced starts for different ages and starting conditions. There are even options for directly starting in a crisis age, like an Age of Plague advanced start.
Revolutionist_8
King
Interesting, albeit to be expected, I guess. But if the final game wouldn't have gamespeed options... that'd sound bizarre. My only "fear" hence it came to my mind, is that how to balance all the values and mechanics on a slower speed. But just increasing the thresholds would be sufficient I think.
I really really hope that there will be an option for slower speeds, even a medium map seems to be quite large in the demo (which is good!). What's on your take on this, as an expert?
Millennia does seem to me like it should support game speeds relatively well - it's mechanically similar to Civ, and it doesn't have any huge design roadblocks for variable speed like e.g. Old World does (characters). So adopting the Civ approach and slowing down everything (culture, tech, pop growth, etc) by say 50% seems viable. Just took another look at the code for techs, there are various discounts possible specific to the tech, on top of discounts for being from an earlier age, etc, but indeed nothing that looks like a game speed. My feeling is that it's quite possible though.
Still I wouldn't be surprised if that's a post-release feature. Millennia seems to be going for a circa 500 turn game much like Civ, so a slower game pace is going to be somewhat of a niche request, but I would definitely be one of the people who like that. I also prefer Civ 6 on Epic speed, and played Civ4 with my custom speed, because otherwise the techs do just fly by.
Still I wouldn't be surprised if that's a post-release feature. Millennia seems to be going for a circa 500 turn game much like Civ, so a slower game pace is going to be somewhat of a niche request, but I would definitely be one of the people who like that. I also prefer Civ 6 on Epic speed, and played Civ4 with my custom speed, because otherwise the techs do just fly by.
MrRadar
Deity
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I could not resist a couple more runs, and one of them was Zulu with Raiders. Oh, man. This tree will have to be seriously reviewed, as now it is "Why even consider anything else?" tree. Free raiders from the cards, go nuke barb camps, pick up more Warfare XP, more and ever stronger raiders from the cards, more barbs into dust to feed more raiders and then game is ended before turn 60. Very fun, try it, while you can, but it simply can't stay like this in the release version 
MrRadar
Deity
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Oh no... Oh yes..! Lord, help me!
Revolutionist_8
King
Well, he makes good observations and gives interesting opinions (from what I read so far...I'm still laughing that someone said you were an expert!
), and being a game designer for Old World puts him automatically into an "expert" category for me, considering how amazing that game is Just out of curiosity, what happens if I don't exit the game by the deadline? Can steam enforce game exit while you're playing that game? (not that I'll do it, but can't help my software engineer brain...
)
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