Millitray Training mod discussion

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think this summerises the discussion so far.


NONE - mostly weapons were hand crafter by the user
- Archer
- Chariot
- Elephant Rider
- Explorer
- Horseman
- Horse Archer
- Galley
- Javaleneer
- Scout
- Warrior
- Workboat

None - either already need a National Wonder and/or resource
- Anti-Tank
- Arquebuster (sulpher resource)
- Grenader (hand crafted stuff mostly by the user at least early on plus sulpher resource)
- Guerrilla
- Infantry (National Wonder Filings Factory)
- most UN units since they already require the National Wonder to be built

*Kennel or dog breeder/trainer available with hunting - isn't this building part of another mod - I was going to have one in the subdue animals mod which could be built by a captured wolf
- War Dog
- Guard Dog

Forge (Metal Casting)
- Axeman
- Light Calvary
- Light Swordsman
- Mounted Infantry
- Pikeman
- Siege Quinquereme
- Spearman
- Swordsman
- Trireme
- War Elephant
- War Galley

Archery range
- Longbowman

Bazaar (Trade)
- Trade Caravan
- Entertainer

Shipyard (Ship Building)
- Brigantine
- Caravel
- Frigate
- Fluyt
- Galleon
- Modern Workboat
- Sloop

Meeting Hall (Monarchy)
- Spy
- Agent
- Adventurer (?)

Barracks (Military Training)
- Warlord Chief
- Warlord Captain

Armourer (Smithing)
- Crossbowman
- Heavy Calvary
- Heavy Pikeman
- Heavy Swordsman
- Knight
- Maceman
- Mailed Knight

Doctor's Office (Anatomy)
- Medic

*Gunsmith (Flintlock or Matchlock)
- Calvary
- Cuirassier
- Musketman
- Rifleman

*Seige Weapon Workshop
- Catapult
- Trebuchet

Cannon Forge (Gunpowder)
- Bombard Cannon
- Cannon

Garrison
- Warlord Privateer
- Warlord General

Naval Academy (Naval Tactics) and ship yard
- Man 'O' War
- Ship of the Line
- Iron Frigate

*Military Base (Military Tradition)
- Machine Gun
- Modern Grenader
- Marine
- Flamethrower
- Bazooka
- Paratrooper
- Modern Infantry
- Special Forces (* not sure this one belongs here)
- Modern Marine
- SAM Infantry
- Modern Paratrooper

Dry Dock (Steel)
- Iron Clad
- Early Destroyer
- Pre-Dreadnought
- Tropedoboat
- Battlecruser
- Dreadnought
- Transport
- Offshore Platform
- Construct Ship (and manufacturing plant)
- Submerged Town Platform

Police Station (Marxism)
- Police Squad

*Artillery Factory (Artillery)
- Artillery
- Light Anti-Air Gun
- Light Artillery
- Anti-Air Halftrack
- Mobile Artillery
- Flak 88 Cannon
- Rocket Artillery
- Mobile SAM

Intelligence Agency (Communism)
- Special Agent

Factory
- Motorcycle
- Freight
- Jeep
- Armored Car
- BTR80
- UN APC
- Mechanized Infantry
- UN Fighting Vehicle
- Humvee
- Early Tank
- V1 Missile

*Naval Base (Submarine Warfare) requires Drydock
- Submarine
- Destroyer
- Cruiser
- Heavy Cruiser
- Modern Destroyer
- Battleship
- Attack Submarine
- Seaplane Tender
- Early Carrier
- Landing Ship Tank
- Carrier
- Modern Battleship
- Nuclear Submarine
- Missile Cruiser
- AEGIS Cruiser
- Modern Carrier
- Missile Torpedoboat
- Stiletto Boat
- Stealth Destroyer
- Stealth Submarine

*Tank Factory (Armored Vehicles)
- Light Tank
- Tank
- Heavy Tank
- T95
- Thermobaric Tank
- Armor M60
- Modern Armor

Military Airbase (Aviation)
- Fighter
- IL2
- Bomber
- A-Bomb
- Seaplane
- P59
- Jet Fighter
- SR-71 Blackbird
- Gunship
- Transport Helicopter
- Strike Fighter F15
- Strategic Bomber
- A-10 Thunderbolt
- AH64 Gunship
- Modern Fighter F35
- Stealth Fighter
- Stealth Bomber

Scotland Yard
- 007

Manufacturing plant
- ICBM
- Tactical Nuke
- Guided Missile
- Biological Warfare Missile
- Precision Attack Missile
- Remote Controlled Bomber

Cloning Factory (Cloning)
- Clones
- Automatons
- Cyborg

Mech Assembly Plant (Powered Exoskeleton)
- Power Armored Infantry

Android Factory (Androids)
- Android

*Robot Factory (Robotics)
- Global Hawk
- Remote Controlled Bomber
- Walker Droid
- Assault Droid
- Siege Droid
- Sentinel
- High-Tech Robot

Unsure
- Airship (maybe Guildhall since they need craftsmen to build but factories are not yet available)
- Early Fighter (maybe Guildhall since they need craftsmen to build but factories are not yet available)
- Mercenary Infantry (maybe Meeting Hall)

- Fusion Submarine (maybe require National Wonder Fusion....)
- Fusion Destroyer (ditto)
- Fusion Transport (ditto)
- Fusion Carrier (ditto)

- Nanite Spy (already need resource Nanites so maybe just need manufacturing plant)
- Nanite Swarm (ditto)
- Nanite Cloud (ditto)

- Aurora Scramjet (some sort of aerospace plant)
- Orbital Fighter
- Orbital Bomber
- Genetic Soldier

- Lithorial Combat Ship
- High-Tech APC
- NLOS Cannon
- Plasma Armor
- Stealth Armor
- Special Infantry
- Hovertank
- Hybrid Gunship
- Tesla Infantry
- EMP SAM Infantry
- AVC SAM
- AVC
- Super Soldier
- Dropship
- Anti-Personnel Mech
- Scout Mech
- Dreadnought Armor

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I did this already. I didnt work out as intended, but gave a lot of galleys and warriors in the modern age from small undeveloped cities (usually around the poles) even though they were up to date on the research.

This is why, historically, new towns and outposts in the arctic/antarctic have troops sent from other towns.

What (IMO) needs to be done is to make every unit have an attached building or make a partisan with no building reqs or resource reqs for each era.

I disagree with requiring a building for every unit unless you also get rid or the resource requirements for the units. Especially the ones that require a national wonder to get

Perhaps start out with an early barrack (War Hut) and a primitive ship builder. Then make them upgrade like barrack 2 garrison.

Generalstaff's Early Buildings mod for snail speed has such buildings a boatyard and a warrior's hut. However they provide other benefits. Btw barracks do not upgrade to garrison the go obsolete when garrisons come along. Totally different since there is a gap where you can't build experienced troops

What we are trying to achieve is not what buildings are required to produce trained units but what buildings are needed to provide the infrastructure necessary to build the unit at all. This is why we mostly avoid buildings that provide experience.

 

[Afforess]

That's a pretty good list.

I agree that the Mercanary should require a meeting hall, but I don't have any better suggestions for the Airship and Early fighter.

An Orbital Factory may be in line for the Orbital air units.

Maybe a Military Research Lab for the Plasma, Stealth, and other assorted Hi-Tech units.

Also, can we outline what the new buildings are going to give, in the way of stats?

 

[Hydromancerx]

but I don't have any better suggestions for the Airship and Early fighter.

The Airship and Early Fighter could use the "Airfield" building from the "Sports Mod".

Bazaar (Trade)
- Trade Caravan
- Entertainer

I would think the entertainer should require say the theater.

NONE - mostly weapons were hand crafter by the user
- Archer
- Chariot
- Elephant Rider
- Explorer
- Horseman
- Horse Archer
- Galley
- Javaleneer
- Scout
- Warrior
- Workboat

The Chariot would be hard to craft on your own it takes weaving the outside and making the wheels, plus many had bronze on them too.

The elephant rider takes lots of training. The Mahouts spend almost their whole lives living with the elephants. I would think it should take a building like the "Elephant Trainer" in the up coming "Domestic Animal Mod".

And while i agree the workboat could probably be made by hand the galley would be much to big to craft by one person. I think it should require a main building to craft it at.

 

[Afforess]

The Airship and Early Fighter could use the "Airfield" building from the "Sports Mod".

I thought the same thing, but it might come too late technological.

I just checked, the Airfield comes with Aviation. I think it might work there, if not, I can always move it back to flight.

 

[Afforess]

I would think the entertainer should require say the theater.

Or Drama School....

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Problem 1. Not everyone uses every modmod heresy I know but true. We could have the default as none in the base RoM and make the building requirement part of the addon. Will that work?

Entertainers have been around for ever - but I just remembered them so threw them in somewhere we already had.

Chariots were hand crafted, Celtic at least but the Egyptians took it to a whole new level and had huge garrisons of them. But that was training not building. Heck, I have seen amatures build one in a weekend. Including casting the bronze and making the rope that provided the suspension for the firing platform. They are pretty useless in RoM anyway, unfortunately, they used to be my favorite unit.

 

[Afforess]

Problem 1. Not everyone uses every modmod heresy I know but true. We could have the default as none in the base RoM and make the building requirement part of the addon. Will that work?

Yes. Although it is heresy not to use every modmod. At least mine anyway.

Chariots were hand crafted, Celtic at least but the Egyptians took it to a whole new level and had huge garrisons of them. But that was training not building. Heck, I have seen amatures build one in a weekend. Including casting the bronze and making the rope that provided the suspension for the firing platform. They are pretty useless in RoM anyway, unfortunately, they used to be my favorite unit.

I could accidentally add one to their current strength, when I make this. Accidentally, of course.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I could accidentally add one to their current strength, when I make this. Accidentally, of course.

I have my own tweeks mod which I can do that in. I already increased the range on the v1 and guided missiles so that they can reach the nearest city from their base city and so become useful.

 

[Afforess]

I have my own tweeks mod which I can do that in. I already increased the range on the v1 and guided missiles so that they can reach the nearest city from their base city and so become useful.

Hehe. All us Modders have our own tweaks. I myself have 3 custom civs I made, not for public consumption.

Enough of that though,

Also, I thought you guys might care, Phungus added some very useful code to the latest SVN of RevDCM, which I snapped up, which allows me to turn on and off units, or buildings depending on Game Options, in the XML. So theoretically, you could make every modmod a game option, even if it was all XML based.

Now, I'm not going to, as it would just be cluttering the screen, but it might be useful for such a big game changer as this modmod. What do you think?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so I am going to take another crack at this. But this time every unit will need a building and I will be using other modmod buildings that could be of use to this.

----------

* = New Building
Green = Already Required

NONE
- Worker
- Settler
- Colonist
- Pioneer

Palace [GS Civic Buildings Mod]
- Imperial Guard (+ Barracks)
- Guard du Corps (+ Garrison
- Modern Imperial Guard (+ Military Base)
- Robotic Imperial Guard (+ Robotics Lab)

Warrior Hut [GS Civic Buildings Mod]
- Scout
- Warrior
- Javaleneer

Boatyard (Fishing) [GS Early Building Mod]
- Workboat

Lighthouse (Sailing)
- Galley
- War Galley

Dog Breeder (Animal Husbandry) [Domestic Animal Mod]
- War Dog
- Guard Dog

*Fletcher (Archery)
- Archer
- Horse Archer (+ Stable)

Bazaar (Trade)
- Trade Caravan

Harbor (Seafaring)
- Trireme
- Siege Quinquereme

Mercenary Camp (Bronze Working) [GS Civic Buildings Mod]
- Bandit Footpad
- Bandit Rider

Elephant Trainer (Elephant Riding) [Domestic Animal Mod]
- Elephant Rider
- War Elephant

Forge (Metal Casting)
- Spearman
- Axeman
- Light Swordsman
- Explorer

Stable (Chariotry)
- Chariot
- Horseman
- Mounted Infantry
- Horse Archer (+ Fletcher)
- Light Calvary
- Heavy Calvary
- Cuirassier (+ Garrison)
- Calvary (+ Garrison)
- Adventurer

Shipyard (Ship Building)
- Caravel
- Fluyt
- Sloop
- Brigantine
- Galleon
- Frigate

Meeting Hall (Monarchy)
- Spy
- Agent

Barracks (Military Training)
- Warlord Chief
- Pikeman
- Swordsman

Drama School (Drama) [Education Mod]
- Entertainer

Siege Weapon Workshop (Siege Warfare)
- Catapult
- Crossbowman
- Trebuchet

Archery Range (Feudalism)
- Longbowman

Armourer (Smithing)
- Warlord Captain
- Maceman
- Heavy Swordsman
- Heavy Pikeman

Knights Stable (Stirrup)
- Knight
- Mailed Knight

Cannon Forge (Gunpowder)
- Bombard Cannon
- Arquebuster
- Cannon

Doctor's Office (Anatomy)
- Medic

Garrison (Leadership)
- Warlord Privateer
- Musketman
- Cuirassier (+ Stables)
- Rifleman
- Calvary (+ Stables)
- Grenader

Naval Academy (Naval Tactics)
- Man 'O' War
- Ship of the Line
- Iron Frigate

*Military Base (Military Tradition)
- Machine Gun
- Modern Grenader
- Infantry
- Marine
- Flamethrower
- Warlord General
- Bazooka
- Paratrooper
- Modern Infantry
- Special Forces
- Anti-Tank
- Modern Marine
- SAM Infantry
- Modern Paratrooper

Dry Dock (Steel)
- Modern Workboat
- Iron Clad
- Early Destroyer
- Pre-Dreadnought
- Tropedoboat
- Battlecruser
- Dreadnought
- Transport
- Offshore Platform

Police Station (Marxism)
- Police Squad
- SWAT

*Artillery Factory (Artillery)
- Artillery
- Light Anti-Air Gun
- Light Artillery
- Anti-Air Halftrack
- Mobile Artillery
- Flak 88 Cannon
- Rocket Artillery
- Mobile SAM

Intelligence Agency (Communism)
- Special Agent

*Auto Factory (Motorized Transportation)
- Motorcycle
- Freight
- Jeep
- Armored Car
- BTR80
- Armor M60
- Modern Armor
- Mechanized Infantry
- Humvee

*Rebel Base (Guerrilla Warfare)
- Guerrilla
- Mercenary Infantry

*Naval Base (Submarine Warfare)
- Submarine
- Destroyer
- Cruiser
- Heavy Cruiser
- Modern Destroyer
- Battleship
- Attack Submarine
- Seaplane Tender
- Early Carrier
- Landing Ship Tank
- Carrier
- Modern Battleship
- Nuclear Submarine
- Missile Cruiser
- AEGIS Cruiser
- Modern Carrier
- Missile Torpedoboat
- Stiletto Boat
- Stealth Destroyer
- Stealth Submarine

*Tank Factory (Armored Vehicles)
- Early Tank
- Light Tank
- Tank
- Heavy Tank
- T95
- Thermobaric Tank

Airport (Flight)
- Airship
- Early Fighter
- V1 Missile

Military Airbase (Aviation)
- Fighter
- IL2
- Bomber
- A-Bomb
- Seaplane
- P59
- Jet Fighter
- SR-71 Blackbird
- Gunship
- Transport Helicopter
- Strike Fighter F15
- Strategic Bomber
- A-10 Thunderbolt
- AH64 Gunship
- Modern Fighter F35
- Stealth Fighter
- Stealth Bomber

Scotland Yard
- 007

Missile Lab (Advanced Rocketry)
- ICBM
- Tactical Nuke
- Guided Missile
- Biological Warfare Missile
- Precision Attack Missile

United Nations (Mass Media)
- UN Peacekeeper
- UN Diplomat
- UN APC
- UN Fighting Vehicle
- UN Motorized Infantry
- UN Transport Airplane
- UN Transport Helicopter

*Robotics Lab (Robotics)
- Global Hawk
- Remote Controlled Bomber
- Mass Produced Robot
- Construct Ship
- Walker Droid
- Assault Droid
- Siege Droid
- Sentinel
- High-Tech Robot

Cloning Factory (Cloning)
- Clones
- Automatons
- Cyborg

Mech Assembly Plant (Powered Exoskeleton)
- Assault Mech
- Powered Armor Infantry
- Scout Mech
- Anti-Personnel Mech

Aerospace Complex (Orbital Flight)
- Orbital Fighter
- Orbital Bomber
- Aurora Scramjet
- Hybrid Gunship
- Dropship

Mind-Control Center (Thought Scanning)
- Genetic Soldier
- Super Soldier

Android Factory (Androids)
- Android

Control Center (Military Robotics)
- High-Tech APC
- NLOS Cannon
- Plasma Armor
- Stealth Armor
- Hovertank
- AVC SAM
- AVC
- Dreadnought Armor
- Special Infantry
- Tesla Infantry
- EMP SAM Infantry

Naval Yard (Metamaterials)
- Lithorial Combat Ship
- Submerged Town Platform
- Fusion Submarine
- Fusion Destroyer
- Fusion Transport
- Fusion Carrier

Nanite Lab(Nanoelectronics)
- Nanite Spy
- Nanite Swarm
- Nanite Cloud

----------

Note: The later units could still use some tweaking.

Let me know if i forgot any units. It seems like there might be more.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As I have said before, I am totally against the idea of requiring a building that is a training building. So barracks, garrison and stable are out as far as I am concerned for the simple reason that it means you can't build un-experienced (or green) units.

Submerged Town Platform is available many many techs before Naval Yard. I usually have all mine build and placed long before I get that tech.

Why do v1 missiles need an airport? They need a factory but appear long before factories which is why I was suggesting Guild Hall.

Is it possible for people never to choose the civic that is needed to build the buildings you suggest for the units? It would explain why I have never been able to build any of the units you have under Palace.

Infantry already require a building, a National Wonder at that, why is it not shown?

 

[civ_king]

for some damn reason I think

- Caravel
- Fluyt
- Sloop
- Brigantine
- Galleon
- Frigate
- Man 'O' War
- Ship of the Line
- Iron Frigate
- Iron Clad
- Early Destroyer
- Pre-Dreadnought
- Battlecruser
- Dreadnought

should need a cannon forge

 

[Hydromancerx]

As I have said before, I am totally against the idea of requiring a building that is a training building. So barracks, garrison and stable are out as far as I am concerned for the simple reason that it means you can't build un-experienced (or green) units.

Submerged Town Platform is available many many techs before Naval Yard. I usually have all mine build and placed long before I get that tech.

Why do v1 missiles need an airport? They need a factory but appear long before factories which is why I was suggesting Guild Hall.

Is it possible for people never to choose the civic that is needed to build the buildings you suggest for the units? It would explain why I have never been able to build any of the units you have under Palace.

Infantry already require a building, a National Wonder at that, why is it not shown?

Well if we want "green units" then maybe its best we just have all the required building be brand new buildings? I have said it before we could make it much easier if we just had 7 buildings ...

Ancient War Camp = Req for all Ancient Units
Classical War Camp = Req for all Classical Units
Medieval War Camp = Req for all Medieval Units
Renaissance War Camp = Req for all Renaissance Units
Industrial War Camp = Req for all Industrial Units
Modern War Camp = Req for all Modern Units
Trans-Human War Camp = Req for all Trans-Human Units

Or make it real simple ...

War Camp = Required to make all units.

This would be very boring but it would work.

What we should really figure out is how to group them. Are we going to group by their type? by their era? by their resources used?

-------

Oops then were should the Submerged Town Platform go?

-----

I agree the airport is not the best choice but the guild hall is no place for a missile either.

-----

As for the palace units they required the palace by default as well as a specific tech.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well if we want "green units" then maybe its best we just have all the required building be brand new buildings? I have said it before we could make it much easier if we just had 7 buildings ...


Or make it real simple ...

War Camp = Required to make all units.

-------

Oops then were should the Submerged Town Platform go?

-----

I agree the airport is not the best choice but the guild hall is no place for a missile either.

-----

As for the palace units they required the palace by default as well as a specific tech.

or even simpler don't have a prereq building.

Submarge town should be dry dock + factory I think

v1 are rockets not missiles

So the reason I don't getbto build those units because I don't have that civic at the time they are available - got it!

Sorry, we have intermitent internet access at the moment - so keeping stuff short.

 

[Hydromancerx]

What if we just did it like this?

----------

Army Base(Stone Tools)
- Recon Units
- Melee Units
- Animal Units
- Ranged Units
- Mounted Units
- Espionage Units
- Siege Weapons
- Gunpowder Units
- Wheeled Units
- Tracked Units
- Dreadnought Units
- Clone Units
- Robot Units
- Assault Mech Units
- High-Tech Units
- Nanite Units

Naval Base(Sailing)
- Wooden Ships
- Steamships
- Submarines
- Diesel Ships
- Nuclear Ships

Air Base(Flight)
- Early Bomber Units
- Earily Fighter Units
- Bomber Units
- Helicopter Units
- Jet Fighter Units
- Supersonic Units
- Stealth Units
- Missile Units
- Doomsday Units

--------

We could also make sub buildings that requre the main 3 buildings such as

Army Gun Range (Gunpowder) [Req Army Base]
- Gunpowder Units

We might also need a new separate base for the robot and other futuristic units.

What do you guys think?

 

[os79]

Seems certain people disagree strongly on the role of buildings in being a prereq of units. It's all because of an example of Siege Workshop being prereq of Catapults and trebuchats, and Cannon Forge being prereq of Bombards and Cannons.

So I ask this:
What do Siege Workshop and Cannon Forge have in comm???

Then we may go ahead and make this modmod with lesser disagreement, HOPEFULLY!!! I like hydros' ideas of four or so above (too lazy to count upward) because it was very detailed and at least got all buildings in as possible. Then this modmod would require other modmods in its instruction. However, if the vote goes for the hydros' simpler ideas, I can live with it.

The point is: we need to examine Siege Workshop and Cannon Forge and query why they were made at all by Zappara.

PS: When you Cannon Forge, it is not enough, you need sulphur. I learned the hard way in my game, so it is possible to requre both building and resource.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You also need to examine the why of the national wonder "Filings Factory" which provides ammunition for modern units.

I thought this mod was aimed at improving historic accuracy by requiring infrastructure necessary for building units. Not requiring buildings for all units just because we can.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I thought this mod was aimed at improving historic accuracy by requiring infrastructure necessary for building units. Not requiring buildings for all units just because we can.

This is a good point. Well lets see, what makes a unit? I would say weaponry and training. But then what makes those? Weaponry takes technology, resources and manufacturing. While training requires tradition, insight and practice. Based on these we could have a set of requirements for each unit.

Technology - This would be based upon both the technology on how to make the weapon but the skills needed to fight in battle. Thus more than one tech could be needed.

Resources - These would mainly be the resources needed to create the weapon. Be it metals, sulfur, horses, elephants, etc.

Building - This would be used for either manufacturing the weapon or training with the weapon. Thus more than one building could be required.

Civic - Some units would be civic specific such as the Inquisitor.

Empire - Some would be unique to a specific empire.

So based on these we could get a better picture of how to plan things out.

 

[Afforess]

This reminds me, I liked the old Green, Veteran, Elite system from CivIII.

this devolves quickly to another modmod idea:

If a unit requires no training to be built, perhaps they automatically start with a "Green Recruit" promotion which gives -15% , but once they reach level 2, the promotion vanishes. Then, at level 4 they get a free promotion "Veteran" which adds a bit more withdraw chance, and like 5% , and at level 8, an "Elite" promotion...

Anyways, I could figure it out later if I decide to make it.... I'm not sure.

Back on track though:

Not all units require training. In most wars, like WWI or WWII, raw recruits had 4-6 weeks of basic (sometimes less) training, and then were shipped off. That is barely one turn in Civ time. I think that only Special Ops, some more advanced artillery or naval ships need anything in the way of training. Otherwise it conflicts too much with the free XP buildings