Millitray Training mod discussion

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This is a good point. Well lets see, what makes a unit? I would say weaponry and training. But then what makes those? Weaponry takes technology, resources and manufacturing. While training requires tradition, insight and practice. Based on these we could have a set of requirements for each unit.

Technology - This would be based upon both the technology on how to make the weapon but the skills needed to fight in battle. Thus more than one tech could be needed.

Resources - These would mainly be the resources needed to create the weapon. Be it metals, sulfur, horses, elephants, etc.

Building - This would be used for either manufacturing the weapon or training with the weapon. Thus more than one building could be required.

Civic - Some units would be civic specific such as the Inquisitor.

Empire - Some would be unique to a specific empire.

So based on these we could get a better picture of how to plan things out.

I am not so sure about the training bit as I see that as an added feature to getting troops. Something we assume nowadays but even now is not always the case beyond showing which is the dangerous end of the weapon that is. Even basic training has changed over time, dance (also called drill) was a biggie in those times cultures and places where formation was important. AAArgh, I keep loosing connection and what I am posting. I will leave this for later.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Now to try to map it out ...

Animal Units

War Dogs
Tech(s): Military Training, Animal Husbandry
Resource(s): Copper or Iron or Obsidian
Building(s): Dog Breeder (Resource), Kennel (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): -

Guard Dogs
Tech(s): Divine Right
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Dog Breeder (Resource), Kennel (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): -

Archery Units

Archer
Tech(s): Archery
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Fletcher (Craft Weapon), Archery Range (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): -

Javelin Thrower
Tech(s): Archery
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Fletcher (Craft Weapon), Archery Range (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): Mongol Empire

Peltists
Tech(s): Archery
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Fletcher (Craft Weapon), Archery Range (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): Greek Empire

Skirmisher
Tech(s): Archery
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Fletcher (Craft Weapon), Archery Range (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): Malinese Empire

Note: Some buildings do not fit or give bonuses. Alternative buildings should be created to take their place.

You get the idea. I do not want to have to do them all...

Maybe we could think of general terms for units. Like to make bows you need a fletcher. Or to get a dog unit you need a dog breeder.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Now to try to map it out ...

Animal Units

War Dogs
Tech(s): Military Training, Animal Husbandry
Resource(s): Copper or Iron or Obsidian
Building(s): Dog Breeder, Kennel
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): -

Guard Dogs
Tech(s): Divine Right
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Dog Breeder, Kennel
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): -

More to come ...

Dog Breeder or Kennel there needs be only one and that should give a +1 xp to recon units.

No resources.

 

[Afforess]

Maybe we could think of general terms for units. Like to make bows you need a fletcher. Or to get a dog unit you need a dog breeder.

They already all have a general term in the XML called UnitCombatType, which is Melee for melee troops, Archer for archers, Gun, for infantry, etc... it may serve our purposes here.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Dog Breeder or Kennel there needs be only one and that should give a +1 xp to recon units.

No resources.

I am not sure what other name to give it. You would need the dog breeder to simulate a dog resource. Then a place to train the dog at. Then additionally you could have a place like the modmod Kennel to train them at. It woul not be required though. In other words I m trying to think up a building in which the dogs would get basic training to be called a war dog or guard dog rather than just a dog. we could call it "Dog Trainer" if you want.

As for the resources that's what the civlopedia says for the War Dog unit. Its says Copper or Iron or Obsidian. I am just reposing what it said.

 

[Hydromancerx]

They already all have a general term in the XML called UnitCombatType, which is Melee for melee troops, Archer for archers, Gun, for infantry, etc... it may serve our purposes here.

This is not always true. For instance an elephant rider and a horse rider are both mounted units but they are riding totally diffrent animals and require totally diffrent resources. Same could be said with early gunpowder units requiring sulfur while later gunpowder units require ammo.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I would forget the Fletcher since most people did their own until you got big armies which is about the time of longbow.

Actually before we go any further lets get terms agreed upon what do you mean by each of teh entries?

Javelin Thrower
Tech(s): Archery
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Fletcher (Craft Weapon), Archery Range (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): Mongol Empire

Technology, Resource and Civics I understand as meaning the prerequsite for the building of the unit. Empire(s) does this mean UU? Buildings are you saying we need all in the list or that those with (craft weapon) are needed to build the unit and those with (training) are those needed to produce non-green units?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am not sure what other name to give it. You would need the dog breeder to simulate a dog resource. Then a place to train the dog at. Then additionally you could have a place like the modmod Kennel to train them at. It woul not be required though. In other words I m trying to think up a building in which the dogs would get basic training to be called a war dog or guard dog rather than just a dog. we could call it "Dog Trainer" if you want.

What I am saying is that in this particular case the Dog Breeder (or kennel) are the same thing and you don't need to simulate both the resource and a place the build the unit. In cultures where dogs are good they are everywhere. Actually they are everywhere even in cultures which shun them (except for certain hunting dogs which are the exception to the shunning laws).

As for the resources that's what the civlopedia says for the War Dog unit. Its says Copper or Iron or Obsidian. I am just reposing what it said.

Then Zappara got it wrong Or to be more percise he wanted to limit when and where they could be built and we are thinking of replacing this with a building instead. Again this is in this case only.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would forget the Fletcher since most people did their own until you got big armies which is about the time of longbow.

Actually before we go any further lets get terms agreed upon what do you mean by each of teh entries?

Javelin Thrower
Tech(s): Archery
Resource(s): -
Building(s): Fletcher (Craft Weapon), Archery Range (Training)
Civic(s): -
Empire(s): Mongol Empire

Technology, Resource and Civics I understand as meaning the prerequsite for the building of the unit. Empire(s) does this mean UU? Buildings are you saying we need all in the list or that those with (craft weapon) are needed to build the unit and those with (training) are those needed to produce non-green units?

I disagree and think a fletcher is an important occupation. Especially when involving making and selling arrows.

Ok lets go through it ...

Tech means the technology required for the unit.

Resources mean the resource required to make the unit.

Civic means the civics required for the unit.

Yes the Empire field means its a UU.

(Craft Weapon) means its the building that makes the weapon for the unit. But in this case I am unsure if it should be a fletcher.

(Training) means its the place in which they go to practice their skills. In this case an archery range would do. However the current archery range building is much later and give +XP to the unit. I am notsure what else to call such a building.

What I am saying is that in this particular case the Dog Breeder (or kennel) are the same thing and you don't need to simulate both the resource and a place the build the unit. In cultures where dogs are good they are everywhere. Actually they are everywhere even in cultures which shun them (except for certain hunting dogs which are the exception to the shunning laws).



Then Zappara got it wrong Or to be more percise he wanted to limit when and where they could be built and we are thinking of replacing this with a building instead. Again this is in this case only.

Yeah i know. That's why its not like say a horse where you need to find the resource on the map. The dogs on the other hand would be breed to fight through a breeder. Once born they would then be trained to fight. Since only so much can be done through breeding.

Yeah I think that's why he made it have resources. However a war dog they might have metal on them to protect them or at the every least a collar or something.

 

[Afforess]

I disagree and think a fletcher is an important occupation. Especially when involving making and selling arrows.

You could always make a fletcher building that wasn't a prereq for archery units, but speed up their production by 20% or so.

 

[Hydromancerx]

You could always make a fletcher building that wasn't a prereq for archery units, but speed up their production by 20% or so.

That's true.

Yet another reason why units probably should not "require" buildings. But have supplementive buildings like they already have. An example would be a barracks. Right now you do not need a barracks to build melee units but it sure helps them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I disagree and think a fletcher is an important occupation. Especially when involving making and selling arrows.

It is an important occupation, you just wont make a living at it until someone is willing to pay for stuff they can make themselves. Heck, I have made addiquite arrows and I (was) a software geek/nerd.

 

[Hydromancerx]

It is an important occupation, you just wont make a living at it until someone is willing to pay for stuff they can make themselves. Heck, I have made addiquite arrows and I (was) a software geek/nerd.

By your logic there should not be any restaurants. Anyone can cook food. Why pay a restaurant to cook food for you when you can make it yourself?

 

[Afforess]

By your logic there should not be any restaurants. Anyone can cook food. Why pay a restaurant to cook food for you when you can make it yourself?

Lol, Hydromancerx, good counterpoint.

I find there's a great deal I pay for that I could do myself. Heck, I could sew my own clothes, but I'm not going to...

Perhaps would should come up with two lists. New buildings that should speed up unit production, and buildings that units should require, for one of the 5 listed reasons.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Lol, Hydromancerx, good counterpoint.

I find there's a great deal I pay for that I could do myself. Heck, I could sew my own clothes, but I'm not going to...

Perhaps would should come up with two lists. New buildings that should speed up unit production, and buildings that units should require, for one of the 5 listed reasons.

Hmm. Well what if rather than individual units requiring resources the buildings require resources. For example ...

Axemen (Unit) requires the Blacksmith (Building) and in turn the building requires say Copper or Iron resource?

Here are some ideas for buildings ...

Fletcher = Make Bows and Arrows, etc
Blacksmith = Makes Swords, Axes, Polearms, Maces, etc
Gunmaker = Makes Muskets. Riffels, etc
Horse Breeder = Makes Horses

So like a Horse archer would require both a horse breeder and a fletcher. While a Knigh would require a horse breeder and a blacksmith.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

By your logic there should not be any restaurants. Anyone can cook food. Why pay a restaurant to cook food for you when you can make it yourself?

That is something I have always asked myself since I don't go to them.But seriously, you are thinking now not historically. With archers in particular most made their own arrows. This remained the case until people were rich enough to be able to afford someone else to make them for them. Even today many archers make their own, or should I say many of the ones I know. They are part of a historic group so they have limits on what materials can be used.

 

[Afforess]

Hmm. Well what if rather than individual units requiring resources the buildings require resources. For example ...

Axemen (Unit) requires the Blacksmith (Building) and in turn the building requires say Copper or Iron resource?

This is headed for problems. Ever since Generalstaff discovered the bonus limit, I've stayed far away from them...

 

[Hydromancerx]

That is something I have always asked myself since I don't go to them.But seriously, you are thinking now not historically. With archers in particular most made their own arrows. This remained the case until people were rich enough to be able to afford someone else to make them for them. Even today many archers make their own, or should I say many of the ones I know. They are part of a historic group so they have limits on what materials can be used.

I think you are dwelling too much on the archer unit. In game terms I am sudgesting this ...

Weapon Making Building + Training Building = Unit

So lets take my previous idea of 3 main training buildings; Army Base, Naval Base and Air Base.

Then apply to some example units ...

Archer = Army Base + Fletcher
Axeman = Army Base + Blacksmith
Horseman = Army Base + Blacksmith + Horse Breeder
Horse Archer = Army Base + Fletcher + Horse Breeder
Galley = Naval Base + Ship Builder
Trireme = Naval Base + Ship Builder + Blacksmith

You get the idea. What do you guys think?

This is headed for problems. Ever since Generalstaff discovered the bonus limit, I've stayed far away from them...

How do you mean? It would be using the existing requirements for units and then applying them to buildings.

For example rather than an axemen requiring say iron or copper to be made the blacksmith building requires it instead and in turn the axeman requires the building instead.

Resource -> Building -> Unit

 

[os79]

What about this:
We totally toss out "training" idea and concentrate on prereq building being a representative of equipment providence building.

As I see it Siege Workshop is where you get few small tools necessary for the armies to have ready when they go to do battle, and in our imagination use these tools to get more materials from the field to build the final catapults and trebuchats.

Then you have Cannon Forge, that presumably build basic tools for Bombards and Cannons (illogical somewhere there , I know).

So based on that, we can use these prereq buildings as representative of equipment production. That should eliminate few buildings from being a prereqs for some units.