Minimus Maxibus vs Scary Monsters (Deity, Hem, Larg, Norm)

@BiC-Kudos on the gameplay and especially the writeup. You have a real talent for this.

The Egyptian war was really well executed; especially the starting phase where your army really wasn't that big yet and how that bought you some time before Rammy got maces/xbows, etc. I think I may wait too long sometimes. Some nifty amphibious invasions too along the way.

I'm really looking forward to how the overseas invasion is executed. Rarely have I done so with galleons/frigates + rifle/cannon/cav--usually it's much later with oil-navy/marines...or nukes:).

Something's really bugging me though and can't get it out of my head so...regarding your example back in your post#18 about the granary build optimization in Tlatelolco. Specifically the left column where you whip the granary on T57 and track the food accumulations by turn. I think you are neglecting to include the inherent storage capacity of the granary itself (beginning the turn after it's completed) which adds the amount of food currently in granary storage (up to the max capacity of 1/2 * amount required to grow) when the city grows in your calculations.

So, wouldn't it be more like this?
T57-currently 5F with 28F required to grow from S4>S5; (+1F/turn) so 23 turns to grow.
S4>S2 whip granary on T57, so now 5F/24F growing at +6F/turn (working corn and fp).
T58-11F/24F(same as your example) BUT granary will store +6F at end of T58.
T59-17F/24F/6F stored
T60-23F/24F/12F stored (granary is at max storage capacity now; 1/2*amount needed to grow)
City grows S2>S3 on IBT60, works another fp, so will have +7F/turn on T61 and granary can store 13F max.
T61-5F carryover[6F/turn surplus - 1F needed to grow S2>S3] + 12F(granary)/26F/7F stored or 17F/26F/7F stored.
T62- 24F/26F/13F stored....etc.
 
ShiVvV, thanks for your input and the compliment :)
I try to be clear, most of the time, when I write.
"Clarity is man of letters' courtesy" is a motto I like. And then, I live to entertain (entertain you, of course !).

The sequence you're referring to is based on this wonderful picture :
Spoiler :
OuZQTub.jpg

City starts with 5 food in the bin and I compare a 2pop whip RIGHT NOW with a 1pop whip later on.

You're absolutely right that my whole math is wrong and now I can wonder whether it was worth it coming to such extreme ends !

Yes indeed, if we 2pop whip, the food bin goes :
5/24 (whip) --> 11/24 --> 17/24 --> 23/24 --> 12+5=17/26 on turn 61.
Well spotted !

It appears the calculations in the right column are wrong as well, as I let the food bar go back to 0 after Granary growth. The food bin would rather go :
5/28 --> 6/28 --> 7/28 --> 6/26 (whip) --> 13/26 on turn 61

So it appears that whipping 2pop comes ahead by 4 food on turn 61.
Well, those are the sorts of things that happen when you let me do the maths...


... All in all, despite my demonstration having been so wrong,
I'm not sure it was super-very-poor to favour the 1pop whip. The reason would be that the corn that Tlatelolco would work is shared.
Shared with Tenochtitlan that grew to size 7 in the meantime.
So, somehow, the food we lost here was gained there (growing two sizes into unhappiness... it all adds up ! perfection !)
It would certainly be a lot worse if that corn could only be worked by Tlatelolco.
Hmm... well, I'm saying it was great either, eh ? :goodjob:

As a matter of fact, growth has higher value in smaller cities. All infrastructure being equal.
That would be because growth costs less in smaller cities.

Cheers, thanks again for pointing that glorious mistake out.
 
The 'mistake' was not glorious, it's actually quite minor and I felt iffy mentioning it as you are quite obviously an accomplished, capable player. It was just bugging the heck outta me...:).

The point you raise about not seeing the situation as a "one-city" isolated problem is well taken too. But, as you meant it as a demonstration example of determining which path to choose...I just thought I should mention it.

All in all a really fine game you have going and I'm learning some good tricks. So good luck and thanks!
 
Capital has always been in the same place :) Except maybe my very first run through. I figured the faster worker and small early commerce boost from Oasis over FP would be worth it. That is indeed the tech path I followed! I'm not sure what better I can do if I try one more time, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway and see if I can do better, but if not, I'll carry on for a few more turns.
Sorry about the delay, Revent. I'm late to the party.
I prepared an answer when I saw your post, made some mistakes and put it off to a later day. You know how that goes...
First, my bad, I hadn't noticed you'd settled on the Plains hills in both games. I also hadn't noticed it took only one turn moving the settler over. That goes to show how reluctant I am to move away from the best food tile.

Hmm...
You're certainly getting a faster start with this opening :
- worker is out 2 turns earlier;
- first corn is improved 3 turns earlier;
- second corn is improved 4 turns earlier;
- city growths happen earlier, accordingly.

So it may be worth it. The gained food from earlier improvements is worth about 14:food:. To that, one may add the extra food from earlier growths, which harder to evaluate. All in all, maybe 30:food: are gained.

However, long term, SIP catches. I'm not sure how long it would take.
- first corn brings 6 food surplus
- 3rd tile improved raises the food surplus to 12:food:, compared with 9:food: surplus if settling the plains hills (working 2x corn and oasis/cottaged fp) and 10:food: once the cows are improved.
Even longer term, Tenochtitlan has so much food it can grow deep into unhealthiness. The lack of fresh water hurts, then.

Regarding the oasis, I think the point is moot : you're forgoing a riverside tile (fresh corn) to work it. wet corn + fp = oasis commerce.
In that regards, I don't think you should be concerned about working improved or non-improved tiles. What matters more is to work good or poor tiles. A bare floodplains, at 3F1C, is a good tile ! It's just as good as a riverside grassland farm.

Well, those minor quibbles.
Settling on the PH can argued for, as it gives an early edge. I wouldn't think that edge lasts for too long, though.
What played a lot in your favour, however, is that you could secure important tiles by moving the capital to the North-East. Namely, the rice by Churchill.


Finally : how to do better ?
Well, your management looks fine, so... you'd have to look at other aspects of the game.
The best possible opening involves BFC copper and early war. (Not necessarily city captures but at least woodsman Axemen.)

The 'mistake' was not glorious, it's actually quite minor and I felt iffy mentioning it as you are quite obviously an accomplished, capable player. It was just bugging the heck outta me...:).
Don't let that bother you. It's fine raising mistakes. I do appreciate it.
You're right I probably got too excited about it yesterday when I called it glorious.
You know... it was more about the context than the play itself :lol: Trying to go for a demonstration and all.
Furthermore, I'm quite sure I played that sequence other two days. First day I took those sticky notes. Second day I played it out. Never did I look back to reconsider what I'd written.
It's funny how the mind can blank some things at times. Maybe all the time. Maybe that's why we need each other. To save each other from our certainties.

I'm really looking forward to how the overseas invasion is executed. Rarely have I done so with galleons/frigates + rifle/cannon/cav--usually it's much later with oil-navy/marines...or nukes:).
Yes, I'm looking forward to it, too.
The dodgy part about it is our very low number of port cities. That's a consequence of spawning in the middle of the map and not taking Churchill out.
- we've got 2 ports on the East coast (early pigs grab and Cuman the barb city) ;
- 2 others ports in the far West (barb cities)
- a few Egyptian ports. Heliopolis and Alexandria can contribute to the navy. Memphis certainly can't (:gold: multipliers should take priority)
- a few island cities that aren't set up for now (need granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Sac Altar... hmm...)

So, getting Galleons out shouldn't be too hard. We have 2 for now, I think, and maybe 2 others in progress. The Egyptian Galleon was lost on the last turn, when it unloaded a mace and an archer against Buto (couldn't protect it against Ramesses' Caravels).
However, it will be harder to get a fair amount of Frigates.
We need, what ? Maybe 10 Galleons.
First, we'll need to ship units, get our mass over the next continent, that can be done piecemeal.
Then, we'll need some kind of bridge to ship reinforcements accross the sea. I suspect it's enough if we can get 3 units through every turn.
Getting the first batch over asap is matters for now.
 
BiC
The more I look at the minimap in some of the later screenshots; the more inclined I am to postpone the intercontinental invasion until you've convinced some of your Buddhist buddies to 'join' your cause.

Asoka just needs a little nudging-capture what...2 cities? 3 at most and he'll probably vassal. He does have tech on Churchill and a lot of tech on Stalin so he could certainly bribe them in against you if you declare on Asoka. And, Asoka does have MT which is a little concerning but if you were able to take 2 cities or so (spy revolts) on first turn of war...hmmm. With you being so close to Steel...tempting.

And once Asoka has seen the light, coupled with land-target rule versus Stalin, should make for a relatively quick conquest of Stalin's x-bow/horse archer>knight? army against your rifles/cannons.

As usual, all my advice/idle ramblings come with the 'to be taken with grain of salt' caveat :).
 
Thanks, ShiVvV,
Yes, that's certainly a valid line of play you describe, here.
I don't think I'll follow it, though, having the victory condition already locked in mind.
This is arbitrary, the victory condition...

You're right that we're well set up to conquer Asoka --> Stalin and could then push for Churchill or head overseas. This would be the path of least resistance, which should often be sought.
I'd probably agree with you and go that route if I aimed for Conquest / Domination / Space Victory.
For Space, we'd want control over our whole Hemisphere. For Domination, we might skip on Churchill and go overseas faster.

However, I've had the United Nations victory in mind for quite a while, now.
- This is a reason why I've invested heavily into culture buildings : those would go to waste if we tried to overcome our continent with military (i.e. hammers would have better been spent elsewhere).
- More importantly, we've secured Friendly status with our 3 remaining neighbours and we can keep pushing the diplo up (with Shared War, mostly). When aiming for the UN, having Friendly AIs is like having dealt with them already.
--> I do consider, somewhat, that Asoka, Stalin and Churchill are already dealt with.

Regarding their techs : no big deal, we trade with Friendly AIS.

The situation might be different if we hadn't already 29 cities, being 1st in land, food and production.
If we were behind in land and lacked the means to be 1st in population as well, then yes, I think we should look to keep conquering on our own landmass.
As it is, I don't think it's necessary.

I hope that makes sense :) With our objectives in mind, heading overseas faster seems better to me.


Hmm... About the culture, it might happen that we'll never flip a city.
I don't think that's a big loss, though.
However, we can still hope to peace vassal Asoka. And if we do, might peace vassal Stalin as a chain reaction. We need 1,5x his power for that to happen.
We're already at 0.8... If we get a nice surge in power, that might happen. Maybe that's a worthy objective.

:)


ps : if declaring on Asoka, no doubt we'd be the ones bribing in Stalin and maybe Churchill as well.
 
Fun facts @ 1030 AD :
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Stalin plays it right and settles Bryansk a few turns before we get control over a killer tile :
rwhbpd9.jpg


Well, he played almost right : he should have settled where the sign is, so as to get better chances at working the Fish (1SW of the sign).

A notable sight : Asoka has a settler on the ready and two Galleons to steal an island from us.
Eh ? Careful now, friend : one island is fine but two would be over the top !


Non-fun one :
Spoiler :
Tenochtitlan breeds a GP next turn and will start on OxU :
cb0WPss.jpg

Interestingly enough, we've only produced 3 GPs up to now.
So our GP costs are very low, given the amount of food and population we have access to.
It's quite possible a Golden Age should be fired when we switch over to Caste System.
a) we need a few more Galleons before switching.
b) that Great Engineer we've got stored (Henry Bessemer is the name)... well, you know... if nothing else, he can help building the U.N.


Culture overtake :
Spoiler :
vR5tDy9.jpg


We gained two floodplains for Tlatelolco, there.


Cool dudes win again :
Spoiler :
Yes, you called it ! That's a 2-moves Jaguar we promoted :
B3FWyvB.jpg


Does it make 4 moves accross the jungle ?


Revolution n°15 :
Spoiler :
AnVaLo2.jpg


So, you know, I browsed through my F1 screen looking at food surplus.
Top down, it goes :
+15, +11, +10, +10, +9, +9, +8, +8, +8
Gosh... That's why I love Hemispheres and jungle belts.


And to be done with it, a truly Heroic sight :
Spoiler :
vKrqb8h.jpg


You gotta settle those military instructors for cultural pressure, right ?
Given tech and horses, we're looking at 9xp Cavalries, for now. Not considering Civics.


Save is attached, if you wanna peek in.
 

Attachments

Hello,
What's that saying ?
"Thanks for coming." What's the secret word for tonight ?
The secret word for tonight is "Ring of Fire".

Let me try and explain this to you, folks.
This afternoon at the hotel I was introduced for the first time to Johnny Cash.
And Johnny was going to come to the concert tonight.
And he was going to sing with us.
Unfortunately, his wife got sick, so he can't come tonight.

But ! This afternoon, we actually learned how to play a reggae version of Ring of Fire.
And we've been trying to decide whether or not we ought to play it, even if Johnny is not gonna sing it.

Well, maybe you can help us decide.
How many people would like to hear Ring of Fire if Johnny is not going to sing it ?
(Applause)
How many people don't want to hear Ring of Fire ?
(Applause)

I think most people want to hear Ring of Fire.

Okay, here it comes, folks.
 
Turns 163-167 (1030-1070 AD)

Spoiler :
Alright, let's do it, boys!
Maybe you expected an update a couple of days ago. It comes only now, blame it on me !

So, we left the game having just killed (killed !) Ramesses.
From that point on, the military priority was two-fold :
a) Move the army to the east coast, so as not to lose movement points ;
b) Produce a Galleon fleet fast enough to ship the army overseas.

Once an army is big enough, movement points are the limiting factor to the speed of conquest. So one should use those diligently.

A peaceful objective had relations with our culture pressure and the founding of Sushi Inc :
We needed quite a few settlers to secure our mainland borders, and some others to settle the south-western islands.
The inland cities take priority, as they're used as much to maximize our number of tiles worked as they're used for culture pressure.

So this means we needed to remain in Slavery for a few turns, mostly to build Galleons but it also allowed to whip Buddhist Monasteries before they went obsolete (Sci Meth).

That takes us all the way from turn 163 and as far as turn 167 (!).

And then you said : "Jonee's dead"
Are you kidding me ?
And then I said :
Come back Jonee !

In 1070 AD, Tenochtitlan produces our next Great Person... And that is another Great Engineer, going by the name of James Watt.
James Watt is soon put to death on the great Sacrifial Altar of Tenochtitlan. An offering to the sun, in burning flames, high in the sky, he went.
I mean... we triggered a Golden Age, right ?

1070 AD, after at least 10 turns researching mostly nothing (Chemistry), is the turn we trade for Scientific Method.
After four turns, we're finally ready for the Caste System + Nationhood switch. Most of our fleet and mainland cities are established. At least, we've done the minimum to get going.

So, 1070 AD is a sad turn. In 1070 AD, I remember I wept.
That was the turn of surprises and comings to awareness. Horendous ones.
Oh ! Had my dreams misled me ? That wasn't the way... It had to be another way !

Yeah, so you know : we have that Sistine Chapel to help with conquering Churchill and Asoka with culture only !
And then, from 20 turns ago, we've been spamming Buddhist Temples and Monasteries in every frigging city we have ! To the point that we almost have more Buddhist Monasteries than Granaries ! And certainly more than Libraries ! We pushed hard on Libraries but we have more Monasteries for sure. This is our border control we're talking about.
Well, look at this border pressure :
Spoiler :
fI4GRWu.jpg


QJZvZnh.jpg


Aye, aye, great ! My general ! Hold on to yourself, the conquest is in process !
Waterloo, Waterloo, oh what to do ? What to do ?

Yep. Yap yap. This is the big disappointment that evolves into any other.
With Scientific Method, Monasteries go obsolete. That's right.
However, Monasteries retain their culture production. Right ? That's right.
However, the Sistine Chapel culture bonus doesn't apply anymore. Right ? I didn't expect that.

Brrr... Grrrllmmbrreel !
Take a look at the treasury. 6000 :gold: is banked. That's a lot.
We had a trade mission, if recall correctly, for 2500 gold, but the bulk of the treasury was stored with 100% gold slider.
Now we have 6000. Doing roughly +400/turn (+663 on 1070 AD).

You see what I'm getting at, aren't you ?
We've delayed Scientific Method, to retain the ability to build Monasteries, for about 10 turns.
How to put it ?
That was a mistake.
First, Monasteries don't get any Wonder bonuses once they're obsolete.
Second, the AIs kept researching and even trading during this timeframe.

This is where, maybe, it hurts the most.
We had some lead into this game but we couldn't really afford to keep the slider and trades (!) to zero for this long.
AIs have been trading with each other. This is bad.
When AIs trade with each other rather than with the player, they advance twice as fast : 2 AIs get a new tech, as opposed to 1 AI if the player trades.

So they caught up :
Spoiler :
H2xvEs2.jpg


Mehmed and Stalin are isolated but the remaining AIs have tech partners. Our tech lead is gone, gone, gone.
We have the means to research, so everything isn't bad. But it certainly is worse than it could have been.
First, we traded Printing Press. Then they got Replaceable Parts. Then they traded it. And now they're all going to have Rifling.

This is a lesson I can take for myself :
A trade made with one AI is a trade denied to the others. If they're willing to trade, that is.
I'm sure I'll do just that again but it's worth noting. You never know.

So, this is 1070 AD. A turn of great reconsiderations, of great questionings and an end to our disillusions.

On 1070 AD, we're also starting to unload troops on the other landmass.
I've determined a "load" and an "unload" points, where the ocean is at is most narrow :
Spoiler :
XcrzChy.jpg


Very well. If we load and unload from these two tiles, then the travel distance, by sea, is the shortest.
Notice I said : travel distance.
Where it hurts is that if we want to invade Mansa Musa first, then we need to travel a whole lot longer :
Spoiler :
OXu7OOO.jpg


uDlSpHI.jpg


It takes about six turns to go from our Heroic Epic city to the coast and then seven turns to unload a Galleon in Agades from the English coast and just as long (7 turns) to move a land unit from our unload point to Gao.
Seven turns is a lot, especially so when they're added to six. This is enough to make me reconsider the war target.
To have enough Galleons to ship, say 6 troops per turn from the English coast to Agades, we'd need 14 Galleons, just for transport. And then we'd need some more for mobility and stack movement.

Also, of course, Mansa Musa has Rifling, now. He probably has a lose army, having lost a city to Mehmed, but still : he has Rifling.

This is it.
This is 1070 AD, the turn at which all things come to their worst.
It is also the turn when I thought about calling ShiVvV Cassandra for speaking such ill omen of our overseas invasion.

All things considered, I'll be fair.
First, I'll fail fail horribly at this overseas invasion, and then I'll name ShiVvV Cassandra.
 
Onward to 1120 AD.
I'd reached 1090 AD before the week-end and have only played 2 more turns, since...
Mostly, we're talking war targets.

Spoiler :
On 1070 AD, we have 8 Galleons. This is enough to simply ship troops over to the next continent.
Eventually, we should should get some more, though. If we want to move a stack from city to city, then we should try to get 15 Galleons or so.
Maybe more. But, at some point, extra Galleons are worthless, when there aren't troops to transport.
The important point is that we can now rely on our fleet, if only for transport.

So, 1070 AD being the turn of great realizations,
We triggered our first Golden Age and switched into Representation, Caste System and Nationhood.

The end of the Egyptian war left us with a large happy surplus, so we can afford Representation.
Caste System is needed to produce a Great Merchant to fund Sunshi Co.
Nationhood will provide us with an army of lowly draftees. Thankfully, we're AGG, so the poor xp on these units may not backfire too badly.

Tlacopan, the National Epic city can run 8 merchants and barely lose food, off of its tremendous surplus :
Spoiler :
fpXu7i2.jpg


Regarding drafting, we can draft from the former Egyptian cities. This is yet another advantage of having killed Ramesses (otherwise, his culture would prevent us from doing so).
However, we come to realize that there aren't really 20 cities we can draft from.

This is the F1 screen :
Spoiler :
dUaFJJH.jpg

9LrcBta.jpg


18 cities don't have the minimal size to start drafting (size 6).
There are also cities we simply don't want to draft in : Tenochtitlan, Tlacopan and Tlaxcala, mainly.
So, in effect, we're left with about 8 cities to draft from, plus the size 5 cities that will grow a size.

This means that the happy toll from the draft will be real. Even more so, since it appears that a Large size of map means we can draft 4 units per turn.
On the plus side, we have a good happy surplus.
All in all, we'll revolt back into Bureaucracy after 5 turns, which means we can draft for 6 turns. Can't afford any more unhappiness.
(Drafing 4 cities per turn during 6 turns stacks a total of 72 anger....)

You can see we're still focusing on the navy. We're getting a few Trebuchets here and there (to bombard, mostly), while we're waiting for Military Tradition and the ability to train Cavalries.
Most lowly cities focus on infrastructure.
We finally have 7 universtities and Tenochtitlan has started on Oxford.

Memphis, the Jewish holy city, has just gotten its Bank.
From now on, it will be a stake to get 7 Banks (expensive !), so we can start on Wall Street :
Spoiler :
ePjZMTV.jpg


In the meantime, the city can get its Sac Altar and a Grocer. It can, maybe, set up whips as well to overflow hammers into Wall Street.


Oh ! I was going to forget. Research.
We're going for Biology, which is on the way to Medicine.
Churchill is going for Communism (free Spy) in 3 turns and 4 other AIs can research Physics (free Scientist). We don't have a chance at these freebies.

By 1090 AD,
With 5 Galleons now ferrying troops, we have some decent maritime traffic between the English and German/Sumerian lands. We had to evade a stray Privateer (4 moves to our 5 moves Galleons) and, fortunately, an English Frigate did sink it :
Spoiler :
5yR059F.jpg


You can see on the minimap that 2 units are headed to the front in advance. We scouting !
So, one is going to check Mansa's lands and the other is going towards Mehmed, all the way through Germany.

Tlacopan is now ready to produce its Great Person.
And it is a Great Merchant that we get in 1100 AD. This is very good for us. Wall Street will be late but the Merchant will reach Memphis in time to fund Sushi when we discover Medicine.
To have an earlier Wall Street, we'd have had to go for an earlier war. An axemen war, I suppose. That would have given us the time to develop the Egyptian cities.
Spoiler :
ar68kmF.jpg


Getting Biology next turn, we can work the two banana tiles in Tlacopan and hire full merchants. Losing food this turn is fine when our farms get +1 food next turn.
Doing 1500 beakers / turn, we'll need 6 turns to research Medicine. That may be a little less, since we're completing Oxford University at end of turn.

Interesting thing to note : you can see that Frederick has a red fist.
Well, he's declared war on Mehmed (that's Mansa + Freddie vs backwards, full of troops Mehmed).

In the south-west, we haven't settled any additional island city (yet), but the ones we have start to look good :
Spoiler :
mdZK4O8.jpg


Both Pithom and Edfu have a Granary. Buddhism is slowly getting there. We have extra work boats for when we'll get settlers.
Also, we're keeping a couple of Galleons in the area to move troops around.
The stack we had in Buto has been shipped to Memphis, so it can join the East cost.
Finally, our leftover Catapults from the Egyptian war have been spread over for garrison purposes.

1100 AD, this is the final turn we'll be spending in Caste System + Nationhood.
Spoiler :
Lzf6Ne9.jpg


So Tlacopan hires a maximum amount of Merchants yet again. Running another trade mission would be fine. If we produce another sort of GP, then we may just store it for a golden age.
An extra city has been settled West of Tenochtitlan... Maybe it would have been better to ship the settler to the islands (a contested area) but that city can develop quite fast and the culture it will produce will gain us tiles.
Banks have been started. We need five more before we can start on Wall Street. This is another reason to revolt back into Slavery (and remain in Organized Religion, vs Theocracy).

We've been able to trade for Military Tradition with Stalin, so Tlaxcala has started pumping Cavalries.
Now that it has grown to size 15, the city looks pretty strong :
Spoiler :
icaqHR8.jpg


And this takes us to 1120 AD, the turn at which I've stopped.
First, we draft a full round of 4 Riflemen so we can revolt back into Slavery + Bureaucracy (not done, yet).

We've managed to unload :
- 11 macemen
- 9 trebuchets
- 2 jaguars (including our great medic)
- 4 riflemen

We also have loaded in Galleons :
- 2 macemen
- 2 trebuchets
- 2 riflemen

And 5 empty Galleons ready to go pick up troops.
So we're not fully prepared to declare a war but we're almost, almost there.

Overall, we have 4 Frigates, 9 Galleons, 16 Trebuchets, 28 Riflemen, 15 Macemen and 1 Cavalry to work with. Most of those are in transit, as is apparent looking at the troops we've unloaded.
(And some boats are in the west and can't be mobilized for the war in short order.)

The trouble, here, has to do with the choice of a target.
Some things we need to keep in mind in making this decision :
- we want 2 vassals on this landmass. That means 2 wars ;
- we want to minimize the diplo hits we take with our buddies Asoka, Churchill and Asoka ;
- we want to manage our techs properly : we want to bribe AIs and not be bribed against.

Here are a few screens that give some information :
First, tech trades and diplo screens :
Spoiler :
OhXAg7c.jpg


Spoiler :
i6WQbrx.jpg


Then, some lay of the land :
Spoiler :
fvOFEHw.jpg


RDePNY0.jpg


xD1oyLO.jpg


I think I'll pass on Mansa. Mansa is too far away. We'd need another 10 turns or so before we can DoW him.
Mehmed is much closer and already in a two-fronts war. He's a valid target. The easier one, probably. Although we wouldn't want him to capitulate to Mansa or Freddie before us.
Gilgamesh is the top dog and has some real numbers. He doesn't have Rifling but Grenadiers. That could be a tough 1 on 1 war.
Finally Freddie is a valid target, too. He's close, tangled in a war and has the smallest army. Freddie also has only 11 mainland cities. Of course, he's the most advanced, having Cannons, Riflemen and Cavalries.

Regarding diplo hits, it's conspicuous that every AI has made some friends, so we'll have to bite the bullet.

So, some scenarios :
Say we go after Mehmed... can we prevent Mansa or Freddie to capitulate him ? Probably not.
If we succeed in capitulating Mehmed, can we keep waging war with Riflemen ? Or would the nightmare become real with Freddie/Mansa fielding Infantries moving over Railroads ? This risk is very real.
So, we can hope to invade Frederick and then Mehmed but the opposite is not necessarily true. This is a case where invading the most backwards AI might put us in more trouble than we'd want, because it would force us to tech to a new military era and to invest many more hammers into a new army.

AIs we can bribe are Stalin, Mehmed and Gilgamesh, mainly.
This is notable, and a good incentive, imho, to go on their side.

It took me a while to figure what I wanted to do, here. And maybe I'm doing a poor job at explaining it.
I want to invade Frederick.
What tipped me are logistics.
Look at this again :
Spoiler :
xD1oyLO.jpg


We can snipe Berlin and go by the coast straight from Dusseldorf into Cologne and then Hamburg.
It does look very convenient, doesn't it ?
In comparison, here are Gilgamesh's lands :
Spoiler :
QCeEodM.jpg


If we start invading Gilgamesh, can we avoid suffering heavy retaliations ? I don't think we can.
What's convenient about Freddie's lands is that they stretch over a very narrow way. So don't have to fear getting surrounded and stuck over a single place.

Also : we can bribe Mehmed off Mansa's back. So we'll have a war ally. And that will discourage Mehmed from capitulating to Freddie, if he was to lose many other cities.
Also : we can (hope to) bribe Gilgamesh against Freddie. If we can do that, gg, this will be easy. Gilgamesh has a stack that certainly can capture a couple of cities and cut into Freddie's production.
Unfortunately, we need Gilgamesh at Friendly status to do bribe him to war. So, what's the trick ?
We're at +6 with Giggles. We can revolt back into Hereditary Rule to get the bonus from sharing his favoured civic again.
Eh... I've just tested that : it works well enough. We get +4 relations and Gilgamesh is instantly Friendly with us !

So...
That's a plan, right ?
Until this turn, I've moved units as far as possible, thinking I might DoW Mehmed or Mansa.
But now the problem seems solved, so we can stay in place, heal, bring up reinforcements and DoW.
We'll take a diplo hit from Mansa, Churchill and Asoka but, hopefully, that won't stop the latter two from voting for us when comes the time.

Troop production is going to take the priority in the mainland. I think I want mostly Cavalries but Trebs would be fine for bombardment, too, and a little collateral.
Also, we want Frigates to bombard coastal cities.
I'd still like to reach 1,5 of Asoka's power, so we can peace-vassal him. Same thing with Stalin.


Bottom line :
There are upsides to capitulating Frederick because he is more advanced.
Namely, we might extort Steel from him, which would allow cheap Trebuchets into Cannons upgrades.
 
So, should I rush Wall Street or keep this guy in store for the United Nations ?
Spoiler :
TXCpAsK.jpg



I don't really, really need the extra gold at the moment, but costs are going to increase and Wall Street is going to take forever if I don't rush it.
Maybe I can but I don't think I can (:mischief:) get the Ironworks done before reaching Mass Media. I don't have Steel, yet, although I could trade for it shortly.
I don't think either that I can get another Great Engineer in that timeframe.
I don't think either I can vassal two Civs before reaching Mass Media (so maybe rushing the UN isn't an issue).


Sushi was founded on 1050 AD and has been spread to 1 other city at the moment.
I'm leaning towards rushing Wall Street after producing a 2nd Exec.

Bad news travelling :
Some dude has revolted into Mercantilism, grrr !

Thoughts ?
 

Attachments

So, should I rush Wall Street or keep this guy in store for the United Nations ?
Spoiler :
TXCpAsK.jpg



I don't really, really need the extra gold at the moment, but costs are going to increase and Wall Street is going to take forever if I don't rush it.
Maybe I can but I don't think I can (:mischief:) get the Ironworks done before reaching Mass Media. I don't have Steel, yet, although I could trade for it shortly.
I don't think either that I can get another Great Engineer in that timeframe.
I don't think either I can vassal two Civs before reaching Mass Media (so maybe rushing the UN isn't an issue).


Sushi was founded on 1050 AD and has been spread to 1 other city at the moment.
I'm leaning towards rushing Wall Street after producing a 2nd Exec.

Bad news travelling :
Some dude has revolted into Mercantilism, grrr !

Thoughts ?

Wow you doing great this game :goodjob:, i would save this GE for mining its only give you +6 right now but things can be diferent later. Rushing WS isnt worth it right now imo beocuse you didnt spread sushi yet so WS dont give you that much.
And yea bulding WS takes forever but spreding sushi takes you forever too ;). So maybe just slow bulid it ???.
Rushing UN sounds nice but but i dont know its kind of weaste for me i would rather just self tech MM ( at some point),and buid it in IW city.
You shold be far ahead in tech race at this point.
Guessing UN date here can be hmm 1400AD ? tahts a lot of time.

Edit.
I was thinking about rushing kremlin too but looks like churchil will buld it ( for you :D ?).
Kremlin is priceless you will have a lot of whiping right now ( sushi ex maybe mining ex too, facts and coles), tahts a lot and you want to do it asap beocuse you want to switch in to caste asap too ...

Bulding WS with Kremling would be a lot easier too beocuse, i think that WT mentioned it in GM137 threat, you can use overflow from ex and put it in to WS.
 
Thanks for the tips, yyeah.
I think I'll start with evaluating how long it may take to build Wall Street.
A ten turns delay would cost, like... 500 gold, maybe a little more. It's not huge and maybe I can afford it.

And thanks for your encouragements as well.
Yes, I'm sitting pretty in this game. You know, there's great land all around.
It turned out a lot easier than expected when the barbarians never rushed us and we got 3 early Friendly AIs.
Cities sorted by food surplus. Only 2 of them have Sushi. I guess I can stop farming :
Spoiler :
MpL7unq.jpg


That sort of surplus isn't just healthy. It's great :lol:


:)


On the specifics,
Spoiler :
There are some things I've missed in this game and some other things that I'm not ready to do.

Things I'm aiming for :
- A United Nations victory (hence my concern with rushing the Wonder, the need for 2 vassals and the timings of the wars).
I'm not ready to make a full write-up that goes as far as Alpha Centaury. Also, the strategy should have been a lot different to go for Space (invading Asoka after Ramesses should have taken priority).

Things I've missed :
- The Kremlin, sure, I'd like to have it but I've missed it. Indeed, it would make it a lot easier to build WS. What I can hope for, short term, is a Levee.
All chances at the Kremlin were lost when I spent about 10 turns at 0% research... to delay Sci Meth...

Things I'm not really considering :
- Mining Inc, I'm not really considering. I've been so far from that tech path that I'm not willing to backtrack into it. To go for Mining, I should have researched Steel when I went for Rifling.
Also, Memphis doesn't have any resource for Mining.
- Building Factories everywhere... Maybe I will but I'm hoping I'm now making my final push for production (getting an army to vassal Freddie and then maybe Mehmed). I hope I won't need much production afterwards.

Things I'm really not considering :
- Invading Asoka/Stalin/Churchill : I think it will be easier and faster to get these guys to vote for me. So I'd rather share a war with them to raise relations.
Too bad, Churchill has nice wonders (Mausoleum) but a war against him would be hard and would take a long time.

Things I'm willing to consider :
- If I attempted to get another Corp, I'd be more interested in a :culture: corp to see what can be done in association with Sushi and Free Speech (+100% culture). Creative Construction (requires Combustion) would be best.
Then again, Memphis doesn't have the resources to fund it (but this sort of Corp doesn't need to be as widespread as Sushi).


Note on Sushi :
- I want more food off Sushi to weight more in U.N. resolutions ;
- I'll gladly take the extra culture and attempt to push the Indian & English borders.

Things I'm really considering :
I'd like to switch to Free Speech in less than 15 turns, complete some additional Buddhist Stupas fill my borders with Sushi cities and hire Artists off the extra pop.
A Sistine + Stupa + Free Speech artist gives : (4 + 2) x 2,5 = 15 :culture:/turn.
Also, Sushi should give at least 40 :culture:/turn as I can get about 20 resources by myself.
It's possible I won't be able to push those borders very far but I'm really curious to see what can happen, there.

With these goals in mind, I'd much rather have Creative Constructions than Mining Inc.
However, I'm not really willing to research Combustion for that alone. If I can trade for it, different story.
 
Yes, pretty sure you're right : "It's only gold" and I'll save my Engineer.
I'm not racing for gold, nor research, here. I think the military will be my bottleneck.

:goodjob:

I hadn't really considered Creative Constructions up until now and... the off chance that the Engineer may found it really tips the balance for me.
 
Please, remind me, next time I fire up the game, that I should start reporting rather than playing on.
At 1250 AD, the major turning point of the German war has been passed and we're now entering the final chicanes.

Not the teaser I wanted :
Spoiler :
OpiAphd.jpg


This was the one :
Spoiler :
UfKKfNl.jpg
 
@ Calitxcahuaca : I allmoust feel sry for this towns :D if you are not planning to run US.
 
I was rather hoping to switch back into Representation, I think.
I'm not sure how many Towns I have but I know I only have 4 dedicated commerce cities.
(Easy check says : 26 towns, 20 villages, 14 hamlets ... those aren't huge numbers compared with : 73 farms, 37 windmills, 32 workshops, 21 mines, 7 watermills ...
... workers are now replacing mines with windmills and farms with workshops and farms with watermills ... I'm not cottaging any more.)

Maybe I should reconsider my choice for the Iron Works city, though :)
A more heavily workshopped city may be the better location. Thebes and Elephantines should be candidates :
Spoiler :
cUDjOPC.jpg


MNVQHPC.jpg


The lack of Levee hurts those cities, however.
The final candidate for the IW is Tlatelolco, but I was hoping to start on the Eiffel Tower or Rock'n Roll over there, very soon :
Spoiler :
7Jwdmiy.jpg



I'm pretty sure I'm switching back into Nationhood soon, too.
Drafting 24 Riflemen over 6 turns may have been the best thing that happened to the Aztec Empire, this game. I may just do that again.


I'll see, no hurry, I should report back before playing on.
 
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