Minimus Maxibus vs Scary Monsters (Deity, Hem, Larg, Norm)

[BornInCantaloup]

To 500 AD (turn 125-135) :

Spoiler :

So, at 250 AD, we've just declared war on Ramesses, bribing Stalin and Churchill on our side.
From this point on, we want to pierce through his territory and capture his most productive cities asap to cripple his production.
We also want to do a little harrassment and cut his reinforcement lines, if we can.

The tech trading screen looks like this :

Spoiler :

Ramesses has just had Feudalism, so we can expect Longbows.
Chances are high that he also gets Crossbows and Macemen soon. This is why I did not want to prolong the military buildup and favoured an earlier invasion. This will help deny Ramesses the time to upgrade units.
Ramesses will trade techs that 60% of the players know. So we're safe with him trading Music/Philo to Asoka. He won't do that.

Going for speed, here, means we bombard city defences as little as possible.
Our troops are at the gates of Akhetaten in 275 AD and city has no walls.
We immediately bust the garrison, using 0 Catapult for collateral damage. Ramesses didn't upgrade his archers, there, and we don't suffer any losses :

Spoiler :

There are about 5 units in Alexandria but, above all, the city is walled.
Going for speed, here, means we bypass Alexandria and head straight for no-Walls, 40% culture Elephantine.
We have 4 cats + 3 maces on the forested hills and 2 cats + 1 mace 1W.

From this screen, you can see that gpp production has resumed and our gold per turn has dropped drastically (from +88 to +54).
Indeed, Charlie, we're not working full cottages anymore in the north. Texcoco will produce our next GP, hopefully a Scientist :

Spoiler :

The other cottage city, Teotihuacan, still needs a little food before it can focus fully on specialists. It will have about the same possible slots. So we're looking at 2 GPs over the next 10 turns or so.

It looks like this :

Spoiler :

Interestingly, Ramesses has built the Sistine Chapel in Thebes in 250 AD. We'll capture that one.
Seeing how we're sandwiched between Churchill and Asoka, the Sistine makes me think we can exert some heavy cultural pressure out of Buddhist Temples and Monasteries. I'll spam those on the borders.

Elephantine falls on 400 AD, losing 4 Catapults (7 left, need some more !!!) and destroying a garrison of 3 Longbows, 3 Axemen and 2 Catapults :

Spoiler :

Vision over the lake tile lets us see Thebes garrison.
I'll make the decision to let Staling occupy Alexandria's troops and head straight for the capital city.
At that point, we've got 18 macemen. Maybe I've sacrificed too many siege units : our army is off balance. 18 Maces is about what need, though, to clear garrisons fast enough and let units heal in the back lines.

You can see research has resumed and the GP is incoming. We actually have 954/3276 beakers invested in Education. We're just waiting for the bulb to get the tech.
So I'll start on Printing Press in the meantime, another tech that can be bulbed. PP is on the way to Rifling and I do think that Rifling is the next military tech I really want.
I might only use it for an intercontinental invasion, though.
Churchill, Asoka and Stalin will be Friendly with us... that plus the Sistine Chapel makes me play peacefully against them.
It isn't done yet, we'll see. Churchill has the Mausoleum of Mausoles, which is very appealing.

Yes, as you can see, our Eastern Caravel has landed the scout within Gilgamesh's land. Soon, the scout met Frederick of Germany. He'll meet Mansa Musa next turn. And our Western Caravel has met Mehmed.
Mehmed and Mansa are at war.
The good news is that those dudes aren't any more advanced than we are, despite snatching all of the early wonders.

Spoiler :

Still, we're getting a lot of new trading opportunities, including gold trades :

Spoiler :

Trade screen at 400 AD :

Trade screen at 450 AD :

We can hope to get Guilds and Engineering in the near future. Both will be nice but especially Engineering will help us finish the Egyptian war.

By 450 AD, we're at the gates of Thebes, up to 10 Catapults again but struggling to get any more, because we need some Archers as well and have started on the Buddhist buildings :

Spoiler :

Those are 10 units in the garrison. It's a serious number that will still rise. Hence the "10 Macemen is a functional stack ; with 18 we've reached critical mass" argument.
So, 450 BC, Ramesses only lacks Machinery to unlock Macemen and Crossbows. It's a good thing we're still clearing backwards units.

Also, we've traded for Philosophy (with Frederick) in 400 AD and switched into Pacifism to speed up our 2 GPs.
So, in 425 AD, a Great Scientist was born in Texcoco. The day was celebrated accross the Aztec Empire (you know how it goes) and Education was bulbed into. We completed Education at end of the next turn.
In 450 AD, it appears the Great Person from Teotihuacan will be a little late. The city has been harrassed by an Egyptian Archer, having only a Warrior for garrison and, thus, has been forced to whip a defender :

Spoiler :

475 AD, with Education in, we start on Liberalism. We've got about 400 beakers in Printing Press.
At that point, I'm considering a Liberalism --> Replaceable Parts / Rifling slingshot... However, that isn't rational at all. Those techs wouldn't justify the delay on Astronomy.
Part of the reason is that I suspected Asoka to be researching Astro. Asoka hasn't had a new tech for a long time and, since I've lost espionage over him, I've got no idea what he's researching. Something big, for sure, or very slowly.

Anyway, our good friend Churchill has captured a minor Egyptian city : Asyut.
Those are good news : we're deep in Ramesses' core and Churchill cuts some resupply, so we don't have to worry about counterattacks much :

Spoiler :

Meanwhile, yes, Cuman can hold its own. It hasn't been troubled much, though.

And here we come, at 500 AD, still waging the Egyptian war.
We've captured 2 cities over 10 turns cleared the defences from Thebes.
Hey, look at that : can we capture this in one turn ? I don't think we can, but we'll get it for sure :

Spoiler :

Accross the sea, Mehmed has captured a city :

Spoiler :

I wouldn't want him to vassal Mansa. I'd rather invade Mansa myself, with Riflemen, Trebuchets, Galleons and Frigates.
You know, one way we lose this game is after Mehmed vassals Mansa.

Mehmed's lands, byt the way, are the largest and the least developed. I suppose he's been overwhelmed by the amount of settlers he had to produce :

Spoiler :

Well, I guess he doesn't have super very many jungle resources either. Those are on our hemisphere.

Some other intercontinental screenshots :

Spoiler :

We're only 3 turns from the next GP. We'll see what we do with it before completing Liberalism.
So, there aren't any big tech decisions to take, now. In short order, we can just bulb Astronomy.
Here's the tech trades screen :

Spoiler :

Built units, buildings, current improvements :

Spoiler :

What comes next ?
We keep pushing for techs, try to get better siege (Trebuchets) and capture Ramesses' cities asap.
We also try to deny our war allies the city captures.
Finally, we save our begs to prevent Ramesses from capitulating to another AI.
I'm not sure exactly what we'll be able to capture from him but we surely don't want to take him as a (crappy) vassal. Especially not since a UN victory looks convenient from the position we're in (I might go for Space or Domination, nothing decided, there).

 

[MegaLurker]

So, uh....we're gonna need an update before the withdrawal gets too serious

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Sorry, Mega
I can hereby notify my presence.

I got myself some holidays for a week, far away from all electronics. Hence the aggravated silence. Only came back yesterday.

Time is running out - summertime, that is - but I'll be able to sneak in some more updates, don't worry.
However, don't expect a grandiose finish far over Alpha Centauri's orbit. I think I'll try and fold the game as a U.N. Diplomatic victory.
We complete the Egyptian war, capitulate Mansa Musa and follow with Mehmed when it appears he's standing in the road. We overtake our very own continent with culture and island cities.
The path is clear.


Cheers & thanks

 

[Revent]

Hit a goldmine here

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Ah, yes ! That may get you a nice headstart in the game.

I'd be hesitant to capture the 3rd worker, there. It may lose you the warrior (which would be real bad).
There isn't a road connexion from the worker to Bombay, however there is a road going 1NW from the worker.
Maybe it isn't that dangerous, after all. Not sure where Delhi is exactly.
I wouldn't attempt the extra steal if the road went straight to Bombay.


Make sure to produce a few Axemen when the copper is connected.
Then you can try and promote them, versus archers in the open. It's important to keep Asoka's unit count as low as possible, if you don't want to suffer a counter attack.
Don't feel compelled to rush Asoka, however. Controling his unit count, keeping stealing workers and settling cities for yourself is probably a better line of play on this Large map. At least, I would think so.
Following the worker steals with a rush would likely lose you land to the East, South and West.


You'll also have to pay extra attention to your worker use. 3-4 early workers is a lot, so it's easy to waste worker turns.
You can chop and road in advance to the city spots you want to grab.
There's also a nice incentive to double up your workers when improving resources.

With that kind of workforce, pumping settlers is high priority (along with Axemen).
One thing to watch out for is your commerce output : you probably want to cottage heavily, asap, to balance the extra production you have now.
If not careful, you certainly have the means to go broke.

By 2000 BC, you could target 4 cities, 2 axemen and a few cottages (5 ?).

Final note :
Since Asoka's units won't be roaming as much as in my game, you may suffer some barbarian pressure.
Watch out for turns 35-40, since those are the turns when barbs can start entering your borders.


Keep playing, stop & ask if you feel like it
That's an interesting (and strong) start you have, there.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

500 to 620 AD (turns 135-141) :

Spoiler :

Recap :
We left the game at 500 AD, laying the siege of Thebes.
Ramesses had wounded most of our Macemen with Catapults, so we needed to heal a bit.
War ally Churchill had captured a city in the East. War ally Stalin had only sent troops piecemeal.

Meanwhile, we were researching towards Liberalism, having bulbed Education. We were also waiting for our 3rd Great Person before deciding on our Liberalism target : Astronomy or some tech on the way to Rifling. To that end, we had switched in Pacifism in 400 AD.

~~~

Well, I'll just tell you what you wanna hear,
I won't break your girlish fears.
I tried to get close, I couldn't get near.
If I tell you too much, baby, I'll get smeared.

~~~

By 540 AD, our Great Person is soon to be born, we have 427 beakers already invested in Printing Press (in case of a bulb) :

Spoiler :

You can see on that screen we're not working on the National Wonders, yet.
We still owe the war effort a lot of attention. We're not ready to build 7 universities for Oxford. We also don't have Marble for the Epics. And even lack a 10xp unit for the Heroic...
... We have, however, raised our first Great General. We'll use it on a Woodsman 3 Jaguar to make a super-duper-medic. That will unlock the HE.
Regarding military production, we're focusing on Siege units and some extra garrison dudes.

Down south, we finished bombarding Thebes defences, down to 0%, on 520 AD.
So the attack has started this turn. As expected, we'll have to capture the city over 2 turns :

Spoiler :

Eek ! That was a costly attack. We lost another Catapult afterwards. It's possible I sacrificed too many early Catapults and sending Maces earlier would have been better.
- 5 Cats, - 1 Mace.
The good news is that our Macemen start to be well promoted. Most of them are City Raider II.

Raise the alarm, raise the alarm !
On the same turn, we spot a Russian stack, on its way to Elephantine :

Spoiler :

Ok, let's cool down. Relax. There's plenty of time.
However, we should take this seriously : this stack can surely capture the Egyptian city and we don't want that to happen.
The bad news is that our stack is busy in Thebes. We'll have to heal up and march backwards. We can get some Catapult reinforcements from the North but no Macemen. Thus, our strike towards Memphis should be delayed.
Xochicalco is the highlighted city in that screenshot. As you can see, Buddhist buildings are now being prioritized on the English and Indian borders, so as to exert some heavy cultural pressure... courtesy of the Sistine Chapel.

For a final look at the 540 AD situation, see what's down south :

Spoiler :

Churchill has captured a second city in Byblos. Hieracompolis is close and seems very vulnerable (garrison highlighted).
Giza isn't under threat for now. We have a unit scouting it most of the time (a Woodsman II macemen at the moment, who could capture a worker).
Cuman has its Sacrificial Altar and is now producing troops for its own safety.
Churchill... helps us in that he's preventing Ramesses from sending too many reinforcements our way. However, we can't control his army's advance, so that's a little dangerous. Although we should be grateful that he wages war actively, we certainly don't wish him the best of successes !
You might wonder about the impressive garrison in Pi-Ramesses : 1 Longbow, 2 Swordsmen, 3 Axemen and a Catapult. This is where the use of Cuman shows up : the proximity of this city deters Ramesses from sending his troops north. Ramesses also has 3 (tundra) cities south of Pi-Ramesses, so we're really hampering him, there. Even though passively.


560 AD :
We can trade for Engineering,
Thebes is captured, some units go back north towards Alexandria,
A Great Engineer is born in Teotihuacan. That seals the deal : we're taking Astronomy from Liberalism. There's no reason to wait any longer. The Engineer, somehow, is a nice surprise. Maybe we can use it to found a Corporation or to rush an expensive wonder. For now, it will be stored.
We revolt back into Organized Religion, which saves us about 50 gpt on unit maintenance. We're now out of gold.
There was a turn off in research, that was invested in Printing Press : we now have 922 beakers in it.


580 AD :
We left 8 Macemen, 2 Jaguars and 1 Archer in Thebes.
All of our siege has gone north. That was a mistake and it will slow us on our way south, since we're being reinforced with 7 Catapults from the North. We should have kept our 4 southern Catapults by Thebes.
See for yourself :

Spoiler :

Still, this isn't too bad : we're on time to capture Alexandria before Stalin does.
His stack will help us against Memphis or some other city.

With Engineering traded for, we can switch from Catapults production to Trebuchets :

Spoiler :

Only 3 cities are producing offensive military, yes. We can afford that because we already have so many Macemen. This focus on buildings (or units) is temporary, though : we're getting units a bit from everywhere. Lower cities focus on garrison units, we need some of those if we don't want to garrison with Macemen. And we also need some counter-units : yes, Ramesses now has access to Macemen and Crossbows.
You can see our happy cap is high but being used pretty well. Some cities have 4+ happy reserve but 5 cities have 2 or less happiness in reserve. I take that as a sign of good management. Happy cap is a resource like any other : it's a waste to have 10+ unused happy cap.
We're also helped in that task (keeping the happy surplus low) by the tremendous amount of food we have access to : 4 cities have 9 food surpls, talk about that ! Another 8 cities have 6-8 food surplus. Tenochtitlan is stagnating but it is size 19...


So, this is a 600 AD Liberalism, taking Astronomy for the prize :

Spoiler :

We can't trade Engineering for Guilds with Churchill. So we're researching into Guilds this turn.
No AI has Banking, yet, and this means we have a good shot at the free Great Merchant from Economics. This is my tech target, now. We'd also benefit from a switch to Free Market, given intercontinental trade routes.
This is some opportunistic research, rather than a beeline. Beelines are strong but, here, I think it's right to target the tech that will yield the best benefits short term. Banking is needed for Rifling anyway, so it isn't like the detour is huge.

Thanks to Astronomy, we get plenty more trades. We trade strategic resources first, to ensure we can get our basket full :

Spoiler :

Gpt, sure, but health and happy resources as well and even marble ! Now we can rush the National and Heroic Epics.
With Astronomy in (the great Revolution), we also rush a Galleon in the West, because, look at that :

Spoiler :

There are 20+ islands over there and at least 13 seafood resources !
It will be a stake to settle those islands. Also, Ramesses has started the job. We'd like to capture some of his island cities. Once Heliopolis is captured, we'll send troops for his islands. They're not productive, yet, so a handful of units should do the job. Surely we can afford those.

Meanwhile, in Alexandria, the defences slowly go down. There are Walls, there.
Walls were the reason I skipped the city in the first place :

Spoiler :

Looking at this screen, Stalin's stack will be late. But maybe it was right to bring back all these Catapults.
You can see the first Trebuchets are coming out of the gates next turn.

Talking about cities, here's the choice about the Epics :

Spoiler :

Tlaxcala gets the Heroic Epic, as planned.
There was more competition for the National Epic. Xochicalco is our highest quality city... but I wouldn't want to waste it "just" for the NE. It is high food but also an excellent production city. So my choice has been Tlacopan, which accesses 2 bananas and up to 8 grassland farms. That city doesn't really have less food but it has less commerce and less production. Finally, Tlacopan shares 8 tiles with neighbouring cities : I think it's better suited to run lots of specialists


620 AD,
Alexandria falls :

Spoiler :

Too late, Stalin ! Beep-beep !
None of the 5 northern catapults attacked (bombarded), 1 of the southern catapults didn't attack.
Yes, we went overboard with Catapults reinforcements. Well, better safe than sorry, as they say.

I complain, I complain, look at what we left over in Thebes :

Spoiler :

With 4 catapults, that would be an operational stack. Now they're just stuck in the city.
Oh and what's more ? What's gone into you, Churchill ? Our WWII maceman has revealed 28 units (!) targetting Giza.
And, as it happens, Hieracompolis has fallen into English hands :

Spoiler :

Churchill, my friend, the time has come for you to adopt more peaceful manners.
Will you, oh pretty please ?

Look at it this way :

Spoiler :

We can't afford to let Churchill capture Giza. Chances are too high he'd just vassal Ramesses, having captured 4 cities and having the means to push forward in Egyptian lands.

Yes, we really can't afford to let that happen (how do we break Churchill, then ?) :

Spoiler :

And this is where I've left it, before holidays and the forum's apocalyptic meltdown.
Tomorrow, we look at how we can overtake our continent with culture. We examine the victory condition. Maybe we also look into the war objectives and some timings.
I don't think I'll play before... I dunno. A few days. For now I'm hosting two little dudes.

Greetings, greetings, cheers !

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Let's play a game : let's project ourselves from 620 AD.

Spoiler :

Victory condition :
We can be Friendly with Churchill, Asoka and Stalin.
There are two implications :
- they may vote for us in a UN resolution ;
- they may peace-vassal to us if our power rating is high enough.

Having 3 Friendly AIs is a good incentive to target a UN Diplomatic victory.

Keeping those AIs friendly, without attacking them, also gains us time (or turns) towards gaining control over the other continent.
Say we attempt to capitulate Churchill and Asoka. By the time this is done, we'd surely be facing Riflemen or Infantries overseas. If we keep the war on our landmass to a minimum (Ramesses), then the other continent will be less advanced when we get there.

That plus Friendly AIs --> UN Diplo win is what we'll try.

Here's the Victory screen :

Spoiler :

Gilgamesh and Frederick have about the same population. Both of them account for a little below 30% of global population.
It's notable that both of them have more population than Churchill. We need to keep it that way if we want Churchill to vote for us. We want either Gilgamesh or Freddie to be the other candidate to the Diplo win.

Reminder :
We need about 62% of the world's population to vote for us to pass the resolution.

--> We can envision a win by leaving Giggles and Freddie alone,
By capping Mansa Musa and Mehmed
By having Friendly AIs on our continent vote for us.


To raise our population count, we'll need to grow our cities, too. That's a safety net.
To that end, founding Suchi Inc may be a good idea. Sushi also has the much welcome side-effect to pump our culture.


Depending on the timings, if Sushi gains us enough population, maybe we won't need to invade Mehmed. However, Mehmed should be the least advanced AI, so he may be easy to pick upon.
Maybe we can sweep his lands with Cavalries. He'll have a lot of units, however, so War Weariness may become an issue.

Overseas, we'll start by invading Mansa, in the hopes that he helps us research a little bit.
Mansa is also the weakest AI, over there (Freddie and Giggles being bosses).

Once we'll be actively warring overseas, our power rating should rise drastically.
It's unlikely we can peace-vassal Churchill but Asoka and Stalin are possibilities.
If we want to keep our neighbours Friendly with us, it's conceivable to bribe them in our overseas wars.


Now that it's well established where and why we'll be warring, let's have a look at our homely objectives.
Mostly, we want :
- to have the largest population.
- to exert as much cultural pressure as possible.

To gain population, we'll settle more cities. Inland and over the islands.
If we get the Sushi corporation, then our population count will explode.
A high cultural influence will gain us tiles to grow population onto.
If we get enough culture, we may flip cities to get even more population.

Interestingly enough, getting more population and more culture are two processes that go hand in hand.

Becoming a cultural Behemoth :
Cities produce culture on each tile within their cultural sphere of influence.
That tile culture is stacked, turn after turn. Whichever Civ has the most culture over a tile controls the tile.
So, the more cities we have exerting cultural influence over a tile, the faster we stack our culture over that tile, the better our chances to control that tile.

The implication is that overlapping cities is what we wanna do. We want to cramp the land with cities to push our borders forward and gain more population.

Let's have a look at the map and at our potential city sites. Of course, all of these spots aren't of equal quality. Some of them, we don't even control.
In the west :

Spoiler :

If we get the NW city spot, we can hop to pressure Harappan.
Ahmedabad is already sandwiched between Cimmerian and Saxon : possible city flip, there.
If we get the two eastern spots, by Saxon and Xochicalco, then we can hope to pressure Bangalore.
In general, it's very appreciable to us that Asoka is stretched so thin : it means he is, truly, vulnerable to cultural pressure.

In the north :

Spoiler :

We can envision 2 more cities by the Indian borders.
Pataliputra is well surrounded, already. If we can get control over the northernmost city site, a 4th city will apply pressure over its tiles.
Agra is a little weak versus Teotihuacan and, if we get a helper 3W of Tenochtitlan, we can certainly push the borders a few tiles back.
That helper would also help Xochicalco and Tlacopan versus Calcutta.

This is the bulk of the cultural war. Most of it is directed against Asoka.
Versus Churchill, a city 3N of Tlaxcala could help against Warwick but we're already a little late, there. Warwick being a military city, we don't have much culture in the area.
If we can't get control over that tile, then we can settle 3N1W of Tlaxcala.

In the South :

Spoiler :

A city below the sign or 1W would grant us access to Marble and would help pushing borders against Liverpool. We'd have Akhetaten + that city against 1, so favourable chances to gain so grassland.

Overall, we can envision settling at least 3 more inland cities, against Bangalore, Liverpool and Calcutta.
The others may or may not be worth the effort.


Completing the Egyptian war :
Churchill has a Peace Treaty with Ramesses for the next 10 turns. Then we can beg gold from him for a 10 turns peace treaty :
We have about 20 turns to complete the Egyptian war. That takes us, roughly, to 1000 AD. It would be nice to have Rifling around then.
Can we do it ? Maybe we can :

Spoiler :

There remains 4 core cities to capture : Giza, Memphis, Heliopolis and Pi-Ramesses.
We want some island cities, too and whatever else we can.
If we miss on the southernmost cities, no big deal.
The harder part, here, is to decide on an invasion path. Maybe Heliopolis should be the next target, and then Memphis. That would avoid having to split the army too much, as well as having to backtrack. Then we can split the army between Giza and Pi-Ramesses.
It can be noted that Cuman will provide us with reinforcements against Pi-Ramesses.

 

[Revent]

@BiC, what do you think of spear (+a few axes) rushing Asoka? I managed to kill 2 of his scouts and he was willing to make peace after that.

It's now 2000BC and I think I've let you down with your expectations of me

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I think rushing north, towards the coast & tundra, will lose you land in the other direction(s).
I'm not fond of the move. A choke would seem a lot better to me, because it would help funding research & expansion, while keeping the military investment to a minimum.
(Choke funds research & expansion by netting you free workers.)

Does Asoka have Chariots ? If he has, you'd need spears to rush him, sure.
That seems hard to do, though. Asoka is a 40% unit spammer.


I'm not sure in what way you let me down ^^
Did you not get your 4 cities by 2000 BC ? That seems fine to me.
Taking peace with Asoka is also a fine way to cut on your military expenses. I have no gripe with that.

What feels off with your screenshot is your city sizes, commerce output and tech level.
You should have Pottery by now, I'm afraid. And you should have more pop off your 4 cities to work more commerce tiles as well as your food specials.
I suspect you whipped items from too low a size. Like settlers going 4-->2.
With this sort of food surplus, you can whip 6-->4 just the same and work more tiles.
With those stolen workers, maybe you don't even need to whip much : you could favour chopping. That would preserve your population count and commerce output.


I hope that helps.
Hmmm... I'm not sure that looks like a super-duper headstart anymore. It doesn't look bad but you're late in techs.
If you don't feel confident playing forward, you can replay that sequence (barely 20 turns) to try and reach a better economic position.
Be more conservative about your plays.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Example @ conservative plays :
It's questionable to whip a settler in Tenochtitlan if it means the city won't work an improved corn for 3+ turns.

Maybe you whipped to much. It's hard to see what happiness you have.
--> many workers --> chop chop

 

[Revent]

Yes, that is true! I did indeed whip a lot. Looking back, I realise it was a bit silly purely because I was paranoid about losing city spots!

I think I'll replay the past few turns and chop chop more than I whip and be okay to let the cap grow into unhappiness!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Exactly ! Chop chop more than you whip whip !


Use the resources you have. Here, 3 workers and no happy surplus.
On a different map, the equation would be different.

 

[Revent]

Okay, attempt two on trying to improve my play. I'm not sure HOW on earth I am doing so much better than previously. I think this time, I focused on connecting the cities to ensure TR's and chopping instead of whipping which has helped a lot although I do not like to work unimproved tiles, it is somewhat of a necessity this early on!

On the other hand, somehow I am not Asoka's worst enemy And we exchanged silver for rice or corn.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, that looks good. The silver trade is very appreciable (something I've missed early on).
The land you've covered is nice. Although you may find it difficult to settle a city between Tenochtitlan and Texcoco. 1NE of the oasis is the only spot I can see. I can't seem to find a spot : cities are too close. No big deal, I suppose.


However, I'm a little confused :
- did you not want to load back from turn 28, where you could steal 2x workers from Asoka ?
- do you settle Tenochtitlan a different place every attempt you make ? No fresh water will bite you in the long run : the city has so much food it grows into unhealthiness real fast. I don't think it's needed to forego the +2 health from fresh water. You're also losing a wet corn by moving that way.


Question @ the tech path :
Did you go Agri --> Mining --> Bronze --> Wheel --> Pottery ?
That is the way. Or did you research Animal Husbandry in between ?


Keep it going, that certainly looks playable.
Or. Go. For. One. More. Try.




@ working unimproved tiles :
That is an unnecessary concern.
What matters is working poor or good tiles. The bare floodplains is a good tile : 3F1C is very much worth it.
It's unimproved, so what ? It's just as good as a riverside grassland farm.

In a city like Teotihuacan, different story :
The right play is probably to grow to size 2 and 1pop whip a worker. From where you are, you can grow an additional size and whip 3-->2.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Here we go for ten more turns.
T141-151.

Have a snack, enjoy !

Spoiler :

We start by bribing Mansa off Mehmed. I've said this already, we do not want Mehmed to vassal Mansa. That would make the game a lot harder and unnecessarily, that is.
Somehow, I thought I'd done it already, eek !

Spoiler :

We get Banking in the deal and can start researching Economics. Although, for now, we're still banking gold.

The Heroic Epic is close to completion :

Spoiler :

Highlighted, you can see the power of the Sistine Chapel. Most of our border cities have their Buddhist Temples and Monasteries by now.
On the next turn, the city will look like :

Spoiler :

Now we don't control the horse tile anymore, since Churchill has culture bombed his city, but we can hope to gain it back when the Tlaxcala reaches 500 culture.
I think a Great General has been produced (our second) and is in transit. He will be settled here.

In the south, Ramesses tries a counterattack with a stack of a few Cats, Maces and stuff :

Spoiler :

Having 0 defences in Thebes, there's no need to wait for him. We sacrifice a couple of Catapults to wound his stack and then mop up with Macemen, promoting units here and there.
This is what Catapults are best at : wounding top defenders in the field. To us, now we can build Trebuchets, this should be their specialty.
The harder part with Cats is to decide when to stop. Catapults keep dying, so one should be conservative about their use, or else he'll be pumping Cats from every city available. The city raider units need to make their job, too : there's no need to wait for 99.99% odds to stop attacking with Catapults. This is especially true since combat odds can rise up drastically between the top defender and the next.
End of digression, end of combat :

Spoiler :

After clearing up this stack, our troops from Thebes are split, so we can target Heliopolis.

Spoiler :

I like this path of invasion. We have a Galleon incoming to pick up a few units and capture island cities. And, capturing island cities is sort of a race : we want to do so before Ramesses is willing to capitulate to anyone.
It also means we don't need to split our stack from Memphis. Memphis is surrounded by 3 major Egyptian cities and that would be an awkward location to split from. In those conditions, I think it's better to secure the coast, first.

By Giza, there are two forests and one of our Woodsman II Macemen.
Hey, that's a prize for him (and not his first !) :

Spoiler :

Oh, look ! Another one :

Spoiler :

Silly AI... I did not expect such success ! You know, the lone unit hoarding workers.

Anyway, we bombard Heliopolis (no Walls !) with our wounded Catapults, send a healthy one and go for the throat. No need to wait for Ramesses' reinforcements when we only have a limited amount of units :

Spoiler :

The city falls :

Spoiler :

See the Galleon ? It's right on time.
There's some morals to this story : we needed a Galleon to ship troops to the islands. In this sort of cases, the Galleon should take priority. If we wait for it to be a convenient build, then it will take too much time. Time is of the essence.

So, next turn, we can board 3 macemen and hope to capture a city :

Spoiler :

Meanwhile, our troops in Thebes are healed up and follow on Stalin's stack :

Spoiler :

It's a large stack that Stalin has, but Ramesses now has Engineering, with Pikemen and stuff. Stalin has no chance to capture Memphis, which should be the best defended Egyptian city.
So I'll happily let him soften Memphis' defences.
(Which is why we follow him. Unfortunately, next turn, he'll move his whole stack 1W to clear a few units. So we'll start bombarding and wait for him.)

Economics is done. We're first (great news !). So we ship our free Great Merchant overseas, towards the Temple of Artemis :

Spoiler :

Research is now directed to Replaceable Parts (on the way to Rifling). But, first, we need to bank gold.
Fun thing, you can see Thebes Warriorly garrison.

Pithom, a double fish island city is now under attack :

Spoiler :

We lose a mace and get the city. Thanks to the Sistine Chapel, we can pop borders by hiring citizen specialists (producing 2 culture each). That avoids us the trouble of revolting into Caste System and is faster than building a Monument.
Of course, the workboat that the city still needs will be externalized. Such a small city should focus on its own infrastructure (Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Sac Altar and then we'll see).

Our troops get to Memphis. See ? This is the garrison that Stalin cannot overcome.
Fortunately, the man is full of attack courage so we can trust him to attack the city nonetheless :

Spoiler :

Oh ! What's that ? What's up with you ? Are you a Worker ?

Spoiler :

Now it's the National Epic that comes close to completion. The date is late. It will be done on 780 AD, end of turn. However, that's what we get for getting late marble, settling many cities and following it up with a Macemen invasion.
Maybe, had we gone for Cuirassiers, we could have found the time to start on this National Wonder :

Spoiler :

The city will grow for now and start on a market, to unlock merchant slots.

Stalin, my friend ! You did it !
Well, you started it ! We can't yet capture Memphis this turn but we sure won't lose many units in the deal.

Spoiler :

The main aspect we need to watch for is that we don't want Stalin's reinforcement stack to be able to get the city (the wonders and the war success) when we're done attacking this turn. So we should leave a handful of defensive units.
Like this :

Spoiler :

See Stalin's stack : the Horse Archers are the threat (threatening to steal our very own and very first holy city ! Oh my holiness ! What's got into you ?).

Spoiler :

DANG ! Our Galleon picked up a Trebuchet to fill its 3rd slot, so we can attack a 20% culture city defended by a Longbow and a Maceman :

Spoiler :

It's a Galley we can see East of the Galleon. We'll clean it up next. Galleys transport troops and we cannot spare garrison units for our island cities (at least for now). So Galleys should really be closely watched.
Most of Ramesses' navy is made of Triremes, though. And this is good for us, since Triremes are no threat to us. They don't transport troops and our 5-moves Galleon can evade them easily. You know : never sleep by the coast, captain !

Bye-bye, Galley ! Oh-hello, Triremes, see you another day !

Spoiler :

So : 1 maceman in Buto and 1 Horse Archer in the Western island city.

Anthony van Diemen finally boards Caravel 1 :

Spoiler :

We're rich, we're almost rich ! In any case, we could start researching Replaceable Parts.
We're now making a healthy 760 /turn at 100% research.
(And 229 culture... *whistles*)

Now we'll get it. Memphis, this is your death. But rejoy, for death is not the end and tomorrow shall be a newer start :

Spoiler :

So this is our prize and half the reason we attacked Ramesses in the first place (the other half being he was the lone Jewish heathen fronted against our crew of Buddhist businessmen).
We'll start with the basic infra. The city is almost set up. Mostly, we want gold multipliers, a library and a Sac Altar. We now have a nice incentive to target 7 banks, so as to unlock Wall Street.
If we wanna go for a couple of Corporations, then Wall Street is a must.
We can note that Memphis can found Sushi but no Mining Inc (whereas we have a spare Great Engineer for Mining Inc).

And this is where Ramesses is willing to capitulate to us.
We need to deal with the diplomacy for a bit. And then we'll be able to resume the war.
It's unfortunate that both Gilgamesh and Frederick know Ramesses : so he might vassal to them.
And we're cautious with those dudes, so we can't easily get a peace treaty with them.
However, we can get treaties with Churchill and Asoka, which will give us 10 more turns to capture through Egyptian lands.
What about Stalin ? Stalin has negative war success. I'll bet he has no chance, zero, to vassal Ramesses.
So we're sending his stack south, while we capture Giza, and then we head south ourselves. At least, this is the plan.


Hereby, I can announce the end of this all-war set.
Wait, wait, there's more ! Some things never get old, we get another worker. I have a name for him. From now on and forever, he shall be called... he shall called Number 20 !

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

820 AD, end of turn. I will let you in, in The Secret :

Spoiler :

We start by begging:
- gold from Churchill
- incense from Asoka
To beg for incense, we first cancel a resource deal. This is better than begging for gpt, since we can now re-trade our resource for Asoka's whole available gpt count.

Let's look at our army count :

Spoiler :

With 15 Macemen and 14 Trebuchets, plus the odd unit here and there (Jag, Axe, X-Bow), we don't need to build anymore offensive units.
Our Heroic Epic city can keep pumping troops, mostly siege, in preparation for an overseas invasion. However, reinforcements are superfluous for the Egyptian war.
Also, we may need some more garrison troops. That can't hurt us much.

We have two Galleons for now : Our coastal NE city is slowbuilding a fleet.
The city whips Galleons off specialists and overflows into its University. We don't have many coastal cities, so we need to start on the fleet early. Actually, we're probably late already and will have to whip the city actively to raise our Galleon count.

End of turn, we also re-arrange our frontline :

Spoiler :

Some healthy units (Catapults) are hidden in Memphis to save a little maintenance.
Macemen heal on the spot.
Trebuchet reinforcements are coming from the north, escorted by a Longbowman. These units will join up with the WWII Maceman and its worker on the forest 1NW of Giza. Worker will road the tile.
We certainly don't need to send our whole troop to Giza. So we'll split. The city has walls, though, so I think all the siege should go.

Meanwhile, we're sending Stalin's stack over to Pi-Ramesses :

Spoiler :

The city is very well defended, having a Castle, 2 Maces, 2 Longbows, 1 Pike...
... So I don't think Stalin can capture it.
You can see Cuman has almost assembled an operational stack. Those units, most likely will go for Pi-Ramesses too. A Musket is whipped this turn, overflowing into a Treb next turn while the city will grow back to size 4. From size 4, it will immediately be able to whip the Treb.
So, 1 turn overflow, 2 turns whip : in 3 turns, we'll have 3 Trebuchets, 1 Mace, 1 Musket, 1 X-Bow and 2 Axes to work with.
Maybe it's best to send these units south. I haven't thought much about it. They can certainly capture a minor city on their own. And there's silver down there.

It's tempting to capture as many cities as possible but I fear Ramesses would vassal to Gilgamesh or Freddie if I get too greedy with city captures.
On the other hand, if we manage to kill Ramesses, then our Egyptian cities won't suffer from the "We yearn to join our motherland" penalty. I guess I should look into capitulation mechanics.
Gilgamesh is Cautious with Ramesses. Frederick is Pleased with him.

If we look at the Demographics, I don't think our army count is enough to deter from such a capitulation :

Spoiler :

What might factor, however, is the fact that Ramesses is overseas. AIs are a little reluctant to accept overseas vassals.
Conceivably, we could try to capture Giza first and then all southern cities in a single turn...
... that would deny the AI the time to cap to Freddie.
But look at this spread :

Spoiler :

The island cities aren't a problem but the 4 mainland cities might be.
We only have 15 maces. We probably don't have the troop count to afford such a split.

It's possible, too, that it's best to accept that we'll be DoWed by Frederick and take the time to wipe Ramesses off the map completely.
Would a German DoW really hamper us ? Hmm... Not really, maybe not.

So, to end on this subject, I need to research under what conditions Freddie will or will not vassal Ramesses.
We've suffered a +4 "you traded with our worst ennemy" (Giggles) penalty with Freddie, so getting him up to Pleased isn't an option.


In other news, we finally invest time in building settlers :

Spoiler :

This first settler will go by the English borders, near Giza and the marble tile. This is the most endangered area. Xochicalco is a very fine location for the task, especially since it will act as a cooldown for the whip anger.
Yes, 10 food surplus makes a city most unhappy, even with a Sacrificial Altar. A beasty city that is :

Spoiler :

There was a thread about the value of the Sac Altar.
The comprehensive way to look at it is such : the value of the Sac Altar rises with a city's food surplus and production multipliers.
These factors combined determine how much a city can whip and, thus, stack whip anger.
Simple, eh ? And dynamic, too.
What the Sac Altar basically does is to halve the whip anger (apart from being an undercosted Courthouse).


We can also look at our western barbarian cities. Those haven't contributed at all with the war effort. Well, they did build a Galleon and a Caravel but, mostly, they focused on getting their infrastructure up.
Now that is almost done. Saxon only lacks a Forge and Cimmerian is already growing on a Missionary :

Spoiler :

So those cities will now help with the expansion business : settlers, workboats and missionaries.
With 10 food surplus, Saxon is a high quality place, so it might get a combination of University/Bank/Stuff.

 

[Revent]

Yes, that looks good. The silver trade is very appreciable (something I've missed early on).
The land you've covered is nice. Although you may find it difficult to settle a city between Tenochtitlan and Texcoco. 1NE of the oasis is the only spot I can see. I can't seem to find a spot : cities are too close. No big deal, I suppose.


However, I'm a little confused :
- did you not want to load back from turn 28, where you could steal 2x workers from Asoka ?
- do you settle Tenochtitlan a different place every attempt you make ? No fresh water will bite you in the long run : the city has so much food it grows into unhealthiness real fast. I don't think it's needed to forego the +2 health from fresh water. You're also losing a wet corn by moving that way.


Question @ the tech path :
Did you go Agri --> Mining --> Bronze --> Wheel --> Pottery ?
That is the way. Or did you research Animal Husbandry in between ?


Keep it going, that certainly looks playable.
Or. Go. For. One. More. Try.




@ working unimproved tiles :
That is an unnecessary concern.
What matters is working poor or good tiles. The bare floodplains is a good tile : 3F1C is very much worth it.
It's unimproved, so what ? It's just as good as a riverside grassland farm.

In a city like Teotihuacan, different story :
The right play is probably to grow to size 2 and 1pop whip a worker. From where you are, you can grow an additional size and whip 3-->2.

Capital has always been in the same place Except maybe my very first run through. I figured the faster worker and small early commerce boost from Oasis over FP would be worth it. That is indeed the tech path I followed! I'm not sure what better I can do if I try one more time, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway and see if I can do better, but if not, I'll carry on for a few more turns.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

To the end of the Great Egyptian War (t151-163):

Spoiler :

We started the round by getting a lot of free money from our free Great Economics Merchant:

Spoiler :

2500 gold is worth a lot to us.
By mere gold to research multiplication, we can make about 7300 beakers out of it, which is almost a multiplication by 3.
What about a Golden Age?
On 840 AD, we're working 145 tiles. Over 8 turns, that's 1160 tiles worked, providing extra commerce and hammers. The net gain from the GA would maybe be like 800 base commerce and 500 hammers.
That is alright but it doesn't compare very well with the overseas trade mission, boosted by the Temple of Artemis. This is especially true since not only GPs have increasing costs but GAs as well.

Anyway, this set is supposed to be about the war. Churchill's peace treaty with Ramesses has expired, now. We do have peace treaties with Churchill and Asoka to prevent vassalization. We begged from those two on turn 151. So our peace treaty will expire on turn 161 : this is our target date to wipe Ramesses entirely out of the map.

Why, you ask ? Well, this is why :

Spoiler :

If we leave Ramesses alive, our Egyptian cities will suffer loads of unhappiness, do to the "we yearn to join our Motherland" mechanic.
We could, conceivably, choose to vassal Ramesses ourselves. However, a weak vassal is more of a handicap than a helping hand. It isn't very desirable to waste our relationships with Churchill, Asoka and Stalin by having Rammie as our pet dog.
So we kill him if we can. And if we can't, we let another Civ vassal him.

This is to say we're now rushing.
Fortunately, we have a Galleon to do wonders. The island city Edfu falls :

Spoiler :

So, mostly, at this point, we have the troops we need. And we have the gold to research Rifling in a short time.
Therefore, the time is right for the Heroic Epic city to invest in a culture building. A Buddhist Stupa, that is. We still don't control the horse tile... and the city has lost 4 other tiles to the English. So the incentive for culture is high :

Spoiler :

The 31% sign points a possible city location... Well, we're ways off it.
Our troops come by Giza. Reinforcement Trebuchets are on the forest tile (with a worker roading underneath of it). And our WWII dude, of course, keeps contributing to the healthiness of our Empire :

Spoiler :

Now this is a move I find interesting. Our Galleon picked up 2 Macemen and the Worker captured by Edfu. Meanwhile, the 3rd Maceman and the Trebuchet are healing in Edfu. The Galleon is targetting the 1 Horse Archer city : Busiris :

Spoiler :

Why pick up the Worker ? We're taking advantage from healing time (4 turns) to send the Worker over to Saxon and pick up a Settler over there. So we can start settling the islands for ourselves.
I find this detour is pretty neat and a good use of movement points.

With 8 Buddhist Temples, we can afford a second Buddhist Stupa (and a 3rd with 9).
So, we determine where the extra culture can yield the most benefits. Teotihuacan is a fine place :

Spoiler :

You can see we're soon getting control over 2 extra floodplains in the east.

Giza's Castle slowed us down but, after bombarding for 2 turns, we can assault the city :

Spoiler :

Giza falls. In the end, Stalin never got to lay siege over Pi-Ramesses. Ramesses bribed him out of the war and the Russian army is now marching back into their territory. So long, Stalin, you played your part :

Spoiler :

Only a turn after, we're reading to settle in the space between :

Spoiler :

That's a good and important grab. It would be very tough if Churchill had settled that spot.

Our Galleon is coming back, having unloaded the settler :

Spoiler :

And, 940 AD, we're ready to march into Egyptian territory again :

Spoiler :

Pi-Ramesses is defended by a Castle. At this point, it's clear that we won't be able to kill Ramesses before our Peace Treaties expire.
So, still with rushing in mind, the troops from Cuman (eastern barb city) are sent South. At least, we'll be able to capture Pi-Ramesses and the Silver city at the southern edge or the continent. And two other cities will remain.

Like this, Lisht is the name :

Spoiler :

We suffered heavy losses on this one, despite taking on only 2 Longbows. Our troops were unpromoted (no Barracks) and this is a hill city.

Our Galleon is back fully loaded to lay the siege over Buto. He will pick up now reinforcements to secure the fight :

Spoiler :

The third Buddhist Stupa is started in our all-star city, Xochicalco :

Spoiler :

Yes, indeed, we're not focusing much on military at the present time. We're mostly looking to complete our 7 universities, spam Buddhist buildings, train settlers, missionaries and workboats.

Which doesn't prevent us to have a 37 stack of units by Pi-Ramesses. The city will fall.

Spoiler :

And the leftover troops from Pi-Ramesses directly head south to reinforce the Cuman's stack that has been decimated :

Spoiler :

Our deals with Churchill and Ramesses expire in one turn, so this split is very much needed.
At this point, we can only try to capture the remaining Egyptian cities in a single turn, so as to reduce chances for a capitulation.

Another important location is settled :

Spoiler :

That city can work Bananas from the get go and has at least 5 flatland tiles to work on its own. So, for a marginal, filler city, it's pretty good.
We have Rifling now. I'm hoping to get Horses sometime soon, so Tlaxcala (HE city) is still busy with buildings : it's now working on its Stables. Indeed, I'll use any units I have to fight overseas but I think Cavalries would be the most convenient. For a quick sweep.

No time to heal : march forward !

Spoiler :

1030 AD, we're in position to capture the last three Egyptian cities.
Maybe it was simple luck, but Ramesses hasn't capitulated to anybody. Maybe it was "We're afraid of your ennemies" playing in our favour, or maybe none of the dudes initiated negociations. In which case it was only RNG being kind to us.

In any case, here's Buto. We don't have much margin for success but it works out just fine :

Spoiler :

In Avaris, the situation looks better :

Spoiler :

But troops fail us, almost to the point of a disaster :

Spoiler :

Abydos, on the other hand, is quite the easy capture :

Spoiler :

And that wraps it up ! Success ! Ramesses is dead !
We can now look to complete our set up on this landmass and to mess with the Others.
Mansa and Mehmed are back to warring again, so I suspect that's where we should get involved, too.

Here are some stats for the Egyptian war. Remember, we had very little barb encounters (except for the cities we captured), so most of theses killed troops are Egypt's :

Spoiler :

This has been a long war : it started in 250 AD, turn 125.
We ended it on 1030 AD, turn 163. That's 38 turns warring.
On the bright side, we could keep teching up,
We captured 16 cities. That's one city captured every 2,375 turns. Now the length of this war doesn't look too bad anymore.
We also killed more than 100 units, losing about 30 ourselves. This is a decent ratio.

Looking at buildings... well, you may think that I overbuilt. And I may agree.
Although, if I had qualms, that would mostly be for getting to 7 universities so slowly. Probably, an earlier start on Oxford University would have been worth whipping Unis more agressively.

What else ? Demographics say we're looking good, being 1st in Land, Food and Production.
And the tech trades screen :

Spoiler :

We're getting a lot of happy surplus next turn, getting rid of War Weariness (+9 in Tenochtitlan).
So we probably can make use of Representation and let go of Hereditary Rule. We can trade Constitution from Gilgamesh. We'll get Scientific Method from Churchill.
I'd like to get my hands on Military Tradition, too, but I'm a little reluctant to let go of Rifling just yet. Also, we don't have Horses...
I haven't pushed for Sci Meth, being happy to bank some gold (4477 in treasury). The reason being Monasteries. It's a poor reason but that's what held me back.
What's our tech target, now ? We're going for Medicine. We'll need a Great Merchant to fund Sushi Corp and that may warrant a Caste System switch. This is a little annoying, since we also need a production burst to spam Riflemen.

I haven't played further. I'll give it a little thought and see how it goes.
Next set is probably just setting up.

 

[soundjata]

a Caste System switch. This is a little annoying, since we also need a production burst to spam Riflemen.

Drafting ?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hmm... Now that's a thought. And an interesting one at that. Thank you.
Yes, I should probably do that. I hadn't even started to consider drafting ^^

My usual qualms with drafting is that the happiness toll is too high to support it for long.
Also, being the Aztecs and running a rather farmed-out Empire, Slavery is more appealing, generally speaking. You know, the Sac Altar doesn't reduce the draft anger.

However,
a) we're SPI. So we're looking at a quick 5-8 turns switch for a tremendous 15-24 units burst ;
b) we've got 20 or more cities to spread the draft anger (not sure how many exactly, since we need size 5 and enough culture ... now that Ramesses is dead, can I draft from all of his cities ? Probably yes ?). In any case, the more cities, the more inocuous drafting becomes, being capped at 3 units per turn ;
c) we'll have a nice happy surplus from next turn (war ending).

The situation I dislike is that in which a city gets to draft 3+ times. That sort of drafting becomes unbearable and too much of an economic drag.
However, here, we can certainly get by with drafting 1-2 times max per city. Drafting once everywhere I can would actually be excellent.

Thanks for the tip, good tip !
So we're looking at a Representation + Nationalism + Caste System switch.
I don't think I'll leave OR, since I'm starting on Oxford University next turn (and two chops are stored)