Minimus Maxibus vs Scary Monsters (Deity, Hem, Larg, Norm)

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks, yyeah,
As for your question :

Spoiler :

I was hoping to settle the pigs 1st ring, in the north.
I think that would have justified the tech.
Although... It's close. Maybe gaining the city in the North-East isn't that important and settling faster south, south-west of the capital is better. It would be easier to raise cottages that way.
Settling North-East requires some cultural defences, too, so it doesn't come without a cost. Having an early coastal city is a nice security, though (and high food ! A GP will be raised, there).

Hmm... trade-offs, it's hard to tell what route is best

When Asoka ruined that plan (settling pigs 1st ring), I should probably have re-assessed my tech plan. But I didn't.
Yes, indeed !
Skipping AH could have sped up Writing by about 10 turns. It's considerable.
It's possible I didn't realize I wouldn't have to improve the cows by Tlatelolco, too. Can't remember about that.
In any case, it would have been a good idea to actualize the tech targets at 2000 BC and I didn't.

I think it turned out alright, though, because I discovered horses. The horse tile is pretty good (if only for trades) and I'm very much attached to having a strong Heroic Epic city.

Final note :
It's easy to overvalue early commerce. The commerce sacrificed early is the easiest to make up for via trades. So I'm willing to do just that.

So... I don't have a definite opinion on the matter but there's a good chance going for AH was a misplay, yes !

I've played on to 675 BC (Monarchy trade). I'll update later.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Thats is a crazy amount of food for the capital. I think you should use caste system + pacifism as soon as possible naturaly with monarchy for the happines.

Surrendering slavery even with that unique building is probably worth it and then you get the military technology you wan't you switch to slavery and whip like crazy, I think that is the best way but then I don't know to much about Civilization IV deity.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, that's a high quality capital !
Also, a corn can be shared with Tlatelolco : that city can reach 10 food surplus (!) working 3x floodplains, cows and corn.

a) I hope to lure in some players with such a strong city
b) I feel I need that much to go into this sort of map (see n° of AI cities)

Strong starts on difficult maps is a combination I like very much.


You're absolutely right about Caste System.

Spoiler :

I'm pretty sure a BC switch is in order.
Monarchy was an important tech target to make use of the food, now Currency and CoL will be two others.

There's also the fact that Astronomy can be bulbed, Education can be bulbed...
... so we have a lot of use for Great Scientists.

What I'd like, at this point (the builder in me would like that, anyway) is to find Marble. I'm willing to settle a far away grab city for that resource.
With marble at hand, I'd consider something like Liberalism --> Constitution as very appealing (as much for spy points as for representation).

Then again, I'd also like to invade Ramesses in the BCs... competing objectives, those are.

EDIT :
I'm not sure there's a lot of difference between CivIV deity and CivIV not deity, in that :
- the mechanics are the same;
- the broken things are the same.

There's more competition over the broken things, that is for sure (freebies, wonder plays, etc.).
War is more difficult because the AIs produce more units, that's a certain thing too.
AIs research faster, and that is another key element to the format but, provided one can stay in the tech trading game, it doesn't really make the game harder. It speeds it up, that is all (if you wanna go for the fastest Space Race, you either play on Deity or on Settler difficulty, there are no intermediate options ).
I underscore "format", there, because that's all it is : a format.

ps : I like your sig ^^

 

[BornInCantaloup]

1000 BC – 675 BC (turn 75 to 88):

Spoiler :

Another short set. But one I find interesting.

It is a set that started on a good tone :

Spoiler :

Thank you, Asoka, this isn't the tech that inhabited my dreams
But I shall remember your urbanity when the time comes to choose a war target.
Your generosity has been received, accepted and shall be remembered.

At the beginning of this set, we're doing:
+50 -20 at 100% science slider ; +27 at equilibrium ; +7 +19 at 100% gold slider.
And at the end:
+106 -41 at 100% science slider ; +49 at equilibrium ; +19 +22 at 100% gold slider.

So, over 13 turns, our max research has doubled and at equilibrium, it has grown to a 5/3 ratio.
However, we still can't produce much gold. Gold production has stagnated, due to an increased maintenance.

It is a set,
in which we trade, and that accounts for a large portion of our progress.
We trade for techs and happy resources.

It is a set,
in which infrastructure kicks in.
We've sacrificed some early commerce, for example by chopping forests into granaries when we could have cottaged.
As a result, at 1000 BC, we had 5 cities and :
- 4 Granaries, 1 Library, 1 Monument
- sizes 6, 4, 4, 2, 1 (17 total pop)
13 turns later, at 675 BC, we have 7 cities and :
- 5 Granaries, 4 Libraries, 2 Barracks, 2 Monuments, 1 Academy
- sizes 8, 6, 6, 5, 2, 1, 1 (29 total pop)

Basically, 4 of our cities are evolving at happy cap. Producing the most of what they can.
This results directly from the early infrastucture set up.
It takes a while for infra to pay back, versus, for example, a cottage. Now it has paid back.
The 3 other cities are still being set up and haven't kicked in.

~~~

Mister Zoot Horn Rollo
Hit that long lunar note
And let it float,

It is a set,
We started banking gold in hopes to trade for Alphabet,
We could grow happy cities to about size 5,
We had no control over our very own horse tile :

Spoiler :

Turn 77, 950 BC, we have enough gold to raise the science slider up.
Actually, I'll wait for the turn after and research in 8 turns. A very common date for me to get to Aesthetics is... 875 BC. So that means we're a bit late on the way.
If you've read up the thread, you can guess why that is. A combination of late cottages, animal husbandry researched and grab cities.

An interesting thing to note on this screen and that happened a few times over the course of the set (in different cities) :
Tenochtitlan is running a single scientist this turn, in order to grow to size 7 over a single turn.
It will go back to hiring 2 scientists next turn.
In this case, it may be a bit questionable, since the move delays the Academy by one turn, but in other cases, when there's no hurry to pop the GP, then growing first and hiring the specialist at happy cap is the way to go. That gains the yield from an extra tile.

So we've got 2 cities growing to cap right now.
Tenochtitlan will provide an extra worker. Tlatelolco will go for a settler.
As you can see by the "city" signs, we've still a lot of expanding to do.

Exploring Axeman reveals a lot of free land :

Spoiler :

Asoka went Calendar into Monarchy (Ramesses has that one, too) and then will start on Feudalism.

Turn 81,
The road is done to the gems and the city planted. The settler was in place from the last turn but waited for the network to settle. The city won't be productive at all and I wouldn't want to delay Alphabet because of it. A single axeman is in position to protect both southern cities :

Spoiler :

At this point, we're only 5 turns from Aesthetics, probably 6 turns from Alpha.
So I start concentrating some workforce down south. The reinforcement worker will first chop a monument for Tlaxcala (so we gain control over the horses again) and then will help mining the gems. Meanwhile, the southern worker will road over a gems tile.

In the north, we rearrange garrisons (getting a warrior over in Texcoco),
Whip a Library in Teotihuacan (Texcoco's one is close and will be a 2pop whip),
Spot a settler party from Asoka
And whip our settler in Tlatelolco :

Spoiler :

We can see on that screen there still are only 4 workers. The two northern workers are cottaging between Texcoco and Tlatelolco.

Now, turn 83, 800 BC,
Churchill has gems for trade. I'll give him copper for gems and rice.
With no copper, we lose a few hammers on a spearman but regain the ability to build warriors, which should come handy with a Monarchy trade incoming.
So cities that have their infra up and aren't contributing workers/settlers start on warriors.

Turn 84,
Our settler is out but, once again, because of the AIs' pressure, we can't settle the helper city for Tenochtitlan.

Spoiler :

We have time to go for the second spot, though (Asoka went 1S of the cows, aiming for some riverside location).
The city won't have trade network connexions and will be swarmed in jungle but it isn't as bad as it looks. It's actually pretty good. There's a worker on its way (1NE of the bananas) that will improve the cows. We're getting Aesthetics this turn and, thus, will get Sailing by trade anytime soon.
We can see the Monument in Tlaxcala is done, too. Other cities are growing, Teotihuacan is hiring scientists.

So, the turn after that, we put our beaker into Alphabet, reaching something like 110/540 beakers.
And we're able to trade.
The trade sequence goes like this :

Spoiler :

To get Monarchy this way, we researched Priesthood over a single turn, building research were it was needed. Like this :

Spoiler :

Academy done on 725 BC.
We get another happy trade with Churchill : corn for his silk.

At the end of the set, the tech situation is :

Spoiler :

So, 675 BC, end of the set, we're targetting Currency.
We'll have 8-9 cities by the time it is researched, so the payoff from the extra trade route will be excellent.

One of our Axemen has mapped Ramesses lands. The Jewish Shrine I find most appealing :

Spoiler :

I'm not sure how exactly but I know south is the way to go.
The downside is that Ramesses has had Monarchy first and may (or may not ?) research Feudalism very soon.

At home, we're actually lacking improved tiles to work, which I find is encouraging. Cities are growing and workers are lacking.
We now have 5 workers. However, there only seems to be 1 more settler to hurry, so we'll soon be able to get the extra workers we need :

Spoiler :

I have to invest in culture to protect the tiles but that comes with benefits, too. So I'm ok with it (e.g. Tlatelolco has its Library to keep the cows ; Texcoco will build a Buddhist Monastery asap).
Both northern cities hire scientists at happy cap.
Tenochtitlan, I hope, is ready for a cottage explosion. It will have at least 2 workers assigned (1 from Texcoco and the one it's training).

Well, and this may be about all the land we'll be able to settle peacefully.
See this culture screeen. They've surrounded the island :

Spoiler :

From now on, rather than finding a balance between research and expansion,
I think we'll rather grow cities to their max and find a balance between research and military production.

There's a high chance that Stalin and Asoka will wage war together. I'd like to intervene in that war, if it breaks out. One side or another.
Otherwise, Ramesses is a fine target.
There's only so much that Axemen and Jaguars can accomplish at this point, but slowbuilding some can't hurt. It will make it that much easier to go on the offensive once, say, Construction is known.
Of course, Longbows can render these plans moot. Or extremely costly.

Other than that, I'll stay on the lookout for a barb city,
And for faraway resources. I'd like marble so very much. Usually, on these maps, stone and marble are near the poles.

Final note : The Great Lighthouse has been built on another continent (I wonder which one ) in 700 BC.


We'll see, turn by turn.
Go with the flow.
Although,
There's a limited supply.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Some static analysis at 675 BC:
(You can open a clearview screenshot from the above post, in another window, if you wanna know what I'm talking about, where the cities are, etc.)

...

Beware ! Don't click, don't click it !

Spoiler :

We have a nice little dilemma in our two northern cities (Teotihuacan and Texcoco).
Both cities can hire scientists, have some happy surplus due to Hereditary Rule, can benefit from a Monastery (for border control) and can train some warriors (for garrison).

At the moment, Teotihuacan isn't working the unimproved rice tile, which is still a food positive tile. It runs 2 scientists, which stuns growth. Working the rice instead of a scientist would result in a 3 turns growth.
Texcoco is running a single scientist and grows in 2 turns.

The pigs tile is 53% Aztec 46% English, so whipping a Monastery in Texcoco is very high priority. The city needs to reach 500 culture asap to ensure we keep the tile.
--> Running specs in that city isn't affordable right now: production is still needed. We'll just run the odd scientist when there is no other tile to work.

In Teotihuacan, however, it's a different story.
Most of the city's important tiles are 1st ring, so the extra culture isn't very urgent.
This city will maximize its science output short-term, so we can reach Currency asap.

Reaching Currency asap is an objective we should keep in mind when managing cities. Gaining a turn or two on this tech is well worth sacrificing a little food or production.

Mid-term, I'd like to get a Great Scientist out of both of those cities.
However, to produce the 3rd GP in a good fashion, we need a switch to Caste System. So, somehow, growing the cities is more important than hiring early scientists. Better growth will allow us to hire more specs when the time comes (making up for the delay on hiring the specialists).

~~~

Tenochtitlan,
Working 3x corn, 3x floodplains has a tremendous 15 food surplus.
Now that we're running Hereditary Rule, we can sustain the growth. Growing the city asap is a major stake.
Given enough health, 15 food surplus means the city can grow 1 size every 2 turns up until size 20 (!).
The consequences are :
- we need a steady stream of warriors to increase the happiness
- we need workers in sufficient numbers to improve the tiles.

2 workers is a bare minimum, especially considering some forests will need to be chopped.
A third worker will have to assist the city and Tlatelolco is fit to produce it.

Keep in mind that improved tiles in Tenochtitlan have more value than they have elsewhere. Because of the Academy we already have and of the future switch to Bureaucracy.

If we pay closer attention : 6 grassland tiles can be cottaged, 2 of them being forested : that's about 30 worker turns.

If we're growing into unhappiness and can't keep up with improving the tiles, then whipping a few warriors actually seems good, here.

Actually, with this food surplus and Hereditary Rule, we can 1pop whip the Worker in Tenoch and overflow into a warrior. This is no problem and will gain us a worker turn.

~~~

So Tlaxcala will be tasked with worker & Jaguar production.
That city can whip whenever it doesn't have a tile to work (Texcoco and Tenochtitlan will eventually take over its tiles).

Jaguars, I'd like to get at least 2 of those pretty soon to ease the exploration of the jungle.
Once we control the horses again, the city should also produce a Chariot. It will start with 3xp and, hopefully, will reach 5xp so it can be promoted to Sentry.

However, again, getting to Currency asap is a stake, so probably Tlaxcala should just build Research while growing (and then contribute the workers).

We need to map out Asoka and Stalin sometime soon. The Chariot will come handy in that task.
Churchill, not so much. I don't envision the need, nor the possibility to invade him anytime soon.

~~~

Cities in the South,
Have 3 workers at hand. That should be enough for the time being, especially considering the urgent need for workers in the north.
Those cities are still in the set up phaze. We need a couple of Granaries and have no chops to speed those up.
So the setting up will take a little while. We'll have to rely on improving the rice and cow tiles, as well as deforesting the bananas.

Tlaxcala is doing alright for itself, having already Granary and Monument. The city is building a Library at the moment (vs Barracks) to get the cultural influence we need against Churchill.
That city is the future host to the Heroic Epic, so I'll go heavy on infrastucture, there. I'd like it to control its 2nd ring tiles.
We'll see how priorities go, however. It's possible we'll need some troop production there.
Finally, it's also a good candidate to help with worker production.
It will pop borders in 7 turns and the cows will be improved soon after that. Starting on a worker at size 3 and 1pop whipping it may be the way to go, there.

Calixtlahuaca will pop borders in 8 turns. So, there, we've got 2 workers active and can envision a third.
Workers will have to be timed properly to :
- finish improve the gems
- reach the cows in time
- clear the rice tile and improve it

The improved rice is a better tile to work than the gems but the bare 3F tile isn't worth forgoing gems.
With a border pop, we'll be able to chop a forest into Calixtlahuaca's Granary. So that build will be only a 1 pop whip. There's no rush for this, however (whip at size 4 is ok with me, working rice and 2x gems).
When all of this is done, a worker should remain on standby and start clearing the jungle over the dyes.

~~~

Hmm...
All this talk about workers and no mention of a settler.
We need a settler to settle 3S of Tenochtitlan, claiming 2x bananas and sharing 4 cottageable tiles.
We could conceivably split the area between 2 cities (2W and 1E of the sign, for example) but I'd rather have the higher food surplus, invest in infrastructure only once and not pay the extra maintenance.
The upside of splitting the area between 2 cities comes from the happy cap factor. Each new city raises the overall happy cap of the Empire. So the split is more costly but results in better production.

This decision, actually, is very debattable. It isn't clear at all that the single super city is better than two regular cities.
However, in our particular case, it does come at a lower cost, which, I feel, is reason enough.
We can also hope to produce a GP from the 2x banana city (which wouldn't be the case if splitting up the food). That's also a potential host to a national wonder : the Theatre or the National Epic.

So, that takes us back all the way to the need for a settler

Hmm...
I have my eyes on Teotihuacan right now. The city works 2 unimproved floodplains (good tiles, as good as farmed green riverside). If it goes for max growth (running 0 scientist), it can grow to 7 in two turns.
Then it could 2pop whip a worker. Maybe that is the way to go.

That would somewhat free up Tlatelolco so we can produce the settler we still need.
As much as growth and faster Currency are appealing, settling the city earlier should take priority : it will need a granary, a library... Cities pay off nicely but they take a while.
We're talking about a 2 bananas city, there. Not the crappy helper.

~~~

With Currency coming up, we'll be able to trade resources for gpt.
So the incoming turns are good turns to connect our resources.
The pigs in the north should be roaded.
The rice by Teotihuacan should be improved and roaded.
It's possible we should road the 3rd corn as well.

~~~

Seems like we have a plan, do we not ?
At least, we know where to get the extra settler and workers we need.
It's also established we need some more culture in Texcoco.
Everywhere else, we should probably just build research while growing, so as to speed up Currency.
(That includes the Heroic Epic spot : Library can wait)

~~~

Tech targets :
We should aim to trade for Mathematics and Polytheism, to unlock two very important techs : Calendar and Monotheism.
Calendar will be a tremendous food boost to us.
Monotheism will allow to spam buildings with the Organized Religion bonus.

Considering the situation at hand, spamming buildings should wait for OR, which will give us the time we need to get the necessary workforce.

~~~

Longer term,
Some things might be said but we're mostly looking at things that might happen.
I'm not willing to invest heavily in military production, right now, for example.

Mostly, I'm a little worried about the tech pace on the other continent.
Our AIs will soon be in the 15 cities range. I guess that means the other ones will reach 20 cities each (1 less team on the other side).
I fear we won't have any key wonder to ensure our tech lead (Great Library, Mausoleum, Apostolic Palace, etc.).
Maybe some combination of Pacals & Justinians are enjoying their happy Hindu fest, over there.

Overall, that makes me contemplate a late-game espionage economy.
But first, we need to take control over our continent.

I told you !

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Teaser @400 BC :

Spoiler :

Well, it might not mean much, nor last for long.
Mostly, I found this screen surprising, almost... amusing ! I was dead last only 20 turns ago.

I suspect the fact that Barbarians were a non-issue played a major part in this result. I expected heavy pressure from the barbs.
That pressure never came and it made the game a whole lot easier. It should still be an easy loss, though, rest assured ^^

With hindsight, I'm starting to feel more clearly how AH was a delay (thanks, yyeah, for pointing that out). Although it probably isn't like a 10 turns delay (the time it took to get the tech). Detouring allowed us to focus on production without questions.
(Compared turn by turn with the random game, I'm still behind in techs.)

I'll play on a bit and update tomorrow.

 

[SpK]

Bic - I enjoy your updates entertaining and understandable

The soldier #'s on that screen are so depressing early game xD

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks, SpK, it's good to know my posts are comprehensive and their length isn't overwhelming for everyone.

 

[SpK]

I read fast

XD

and unlike my posts, u I yes are nit just rambling on ;-)

 

[Izuul]

I'm going to pretend this game is a reference to Where the Wild Things Are (boy named Max and lots of scary monsters) since that was/is my favorite children's book of all time.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh! Careful, there, Izuul,
I'll be getting a little jealous if you get to impersonate Minimax to fight off the Scary Monsters.
Although, oh, well.. that seems like a great adventure, indeed !

As for me, I don't have a picture book to rely on,
My Scary Monsters were born in audio-colour
And it's no game !

 

[Revent]

Wow, this game is hard! Tried a quick run to see how I could fare against the AI.

Quick run to 25AD

Spoiler :

The Deity AI are just too fast for me

Will read this thread properly once I unpack

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Alright, let's get on with it.
Update to 400 BC (turn 99) :

Spoiler :

The first turns were devoted to reaching Currency asap.
Cities in the south had to set up their basic infrastructure, cities in the north were running scientists and slowly growing, Tlatelolco was contributing the remaining settler and then workers/jaguars.
Tenochtitlan, with Hereditary Rule at hand, went for max growth and scientists.

On 575 BC, the settler is whipped :

Spoiler :

As you can see, I'm producing warriors in the two "scientist cities" that don't have Barracks.
I'm reluctant to produce garrison warriors in Tenochtitlan because the city already has its Barracks. I'd rather train offensive units over there.

By 525 BC, turn 94, we have enough gold to raise the science slider and research Currency. All developed cities produce Research to speed up the research from 5 to 4 turns.
Ending up with this situation on turn 97 :

Spoiler :

At this point, as a reward for having split our espionage points between Churchill and Asoka, we have vision over the research of both of them.
With Currency in, we part research into Calendar for a turn, setting up a trade.

Meanwhile, our exploring axemen have found some conveniently placed barbarian cities !

Spoiler :

1 down south and 2 up north. With Currency in, there isn't such a hurry to tech up anymore, so troop production will actually be emphasized.
The future Heroic Epic spot, Tlatelolco, Tenochtitlan and our westernmost cities will all contribute.
Capturing barb cities can be an essential source of income, it denies them to the AIs, and if we keep them, they help control the land.

So, at 400 BC, we're able to trade Currency for Calendar with Ramesses.
A few trades we made on the way :

Spoiler :

Here's an update of trades we're having at this point. Currency + Calendar widespread are good for us :

Spoiler :

With Calendar in, about half of our workforce is tasked with improving bananas. But we keep up with the cottaging effort in the north.
Asoka is now researching Civil Service and trading for that tech will be a major objective in the upcoming turns.

Spoiler :

Tlatelolco has to delay Jaguars and whip a Monastery, there. The cow tile is 49% Indian and will pass under Asoka's control for some time, before our city passes the 100 culture treshold.
We could up the worker count to 9 worker. So, while we could use some extra workers, the shortage isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.

Mostly, the jungle cities could use more workers to clear the tiles and develop the food (plantations/farms).
A size 1 city like Tlacopan has 9 happies. So, really, to make our newer cities productive, food is all we need. Once we get the food surplus we need, however, we can think about mining/cottaging.

Southern cities :

Spoiler :

Granaries aren't up, yet, but they're well on their way.
Calixtlahuaca will get another chop and won't need to whip.
Tlacopan has already gotten its chop (clearing a cottage tile for Tenoch, I believe) and will whip 1 pop at size 2.
Xochilcao has just whipped 1 pop.

The spearman, of course, has endorsed the noble assignment to capture a barbarian city. That's his endeavour.
WWII Jaguars will run on its trail, so he'd better go fast.

@ Revent :
Yes, I don't think this is a map for a speedrun...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

To 75 BC (Civil Service) :

Spoiler :

So, from this point, I'm looking for useful trade baits that will grant us Civil Service.
Research will go : Code Of Laws, Metal Casting, Compass, Drama.

It's questionable whether it's wise or not on the player's part to self-research Compass and Drama...
... it's possible going straight for Philosophy would have been better, allowing an earlier switch to Caste + Pacifism.
Well, it made sense at the time.

In any case, this is a set, in which we realize it will be hard to bulb Astronomy before Liberalism.
Indeed, Paper, Education and Printing Press all have higher priority than Astronomy, for Great Scientists.
So, once we get Civil Service... we need Printing Press before we can bulb into Astro.

Regarding the Caste System switch, it's also a set in which I stay into Slavery... precisely because I lack Philosophy. Running Pacifism halves the opportunity cost of running Caste.
So it's a precious combination.


Let's see how it goes.


Overall objectives are :
Grow Tenochtitlan, capture barb cities, set up infrastructure.

On turn 101, 350 BC, we get a nice gold trade from Churchill that helps complete Code of Laws.

Spoiler :

From this point on, we're also Friendly with Asoka, which ensures he'll trade us Civil Service as soon as he gets it.
325 BC, a border pop in Xochicalco gets us a 1st ring banana that Asoka improved (nice).

Spoiler :

And way down in the south, a scout lures an archer out of the barb city. We have two axemen in the vicinity !

Spoiler :

Asoka's chariot clear that archer.
Result :

Spoiler :

We get 120 gold, a worker...
... And I decide to keep the city.
The reasoning being that Ramesses is my war target. So I'd rather deny him the land.
It can be used to open a sort of a 2nd front. If only a defensive one with 2 axes, 2 archers and a few other units to draw Ramesses' fire.
Finally, the city can work 3 strong specials and has 3 forests, so it will be easy to set up (although a drain on the economy).

Anyway, this is the turn we went for Metal Casting (instead of Philosophy). Maybe the right choice, maybe a misplay.
The situation looked like this :

Spoiler :

I think the determining factor behind my choice is that : no AI, at the moment, can research (nor trade for) Philosophy.
I had, also, only a meager 99 gold in treasury, doing -48 per turn. Philosophy being a 7 turns research was a little impressive at the time.

Hmm... Maybe it was the right decision after all. Researching more smaller techs contributed to gain more money because we could sell techs more often.
So, overall, maybe we missed the optimal tech target but got a better overall tech pace.

Of note on this tech trading screen above : Stalin is very much isolated, very backwards and won't trade with anyone (requires Pleased status on his part).

So we went for Metal Casting. A nice tech, on the way to Machinery.
Once we'll have Civil Service, we'll want Machinery asap for Macemen. Ramesses will probably have Longbows sometime soon, so we need Maces if we want to invade him (and Construction, too).
Engineering and Optics are also down the Machinery line but a little too far for us to consider at the moment.

225 BC, turn 106, we get Metal Casting.
We're about to break the 200 bpt treshold and about maxed in the north.
That could have been a time, in another game, in which we could have switched into more favourable civics (say... Caste System and Pacifism).
Still, probably it's no big deal, we whipped here and there and can't bulb Astronomy anyway.

Spoiler :

Churchill went HBR, Currency, Theology.
Now, with Asoka 7 turns from his tech and Churchill 8 turns away, we have a nice window of security. There won't be any surprises, there.
We're starting on Compass. Still the "trade bait" reasoning at work. And if an AI gets to research Optics (unlocking Caravels), that's a gain for us.

Westwards, we've mapped out the two barb cities. They're goodies and I'll keep them, given the opportunity. Especially given they're West coast and I've just mentioned Caravels. Also, come on, three resources each, some tiles already improved :

Spoiler :

Of course, to get Metal Casting in such a timely fashion, we had to run 100% science slider most of the time, if not all.
So, along the way, a few trades happened, with only Code of Laws to sell :

Spoiler :

Those might seem like bad deals (they did, to me, at first glance) but we're converting those 110 gold into 400 beakers...
... and we're also racing against another continent. The game will be a lot easier if our continent is the more advanced one. So, really, it's not a problem to sell CoL at a discount.

We also get to use this fun little trick to improve the diplo and scrap some more gold :

Spoiler :

And a few turns later, we'll let Asoka have Code of Laws (saw it coming ? I didn't) :

Spoiler :

This is a case of :
"Fine, I'll let go of my trade bait and research another one. Oh the Drama..."

...

Cities keep growing, workers keep working,

We get a few more trades to fund research :
Compass for 100 gold with Ramesses
Drama for 70 gold with Ramesses
Drama for 80 gold with Churchill

The Axeman in the West gets to kill 2 barb archers running around the cities (getting City Raider 2 for himself),

Jaguars keep running until they get in position :

Spoiler :

Asoka's axeman is escorting a settler.
We have 3 Jags, 1 spear, 1 wounded axe. There are 2 Archers in the city : it will be an easy grab.

Research has started on Machinery, so we can produce Macemen.
Fair trade has bumped Churchill to Friendly : he'll trade us Construction.
And this is also the turn we trade for Civil Service.

Spoiler :

Situation at 75 BC :

Tenochtitlan is size 16 and the world's second greatest city :

Spoiler :

I suppose I should get Monasteries, there, sometime soon.
I couldn't get the 3rd worker to improve tiles (because Calendar), so I'm just starting to mine the hills. I also want to cottage the riverside plains 2S.

In the north, cities are productive but, somehow, we lack improved tiles... or just tiles. It's a little cramped :

Spoiler :

In the south, our workers still have a lot to do. Cities can whip units, though, so the lack of workable tiles isn't too bad :

Spoiler :

Some news from the world :

Spoiler :

The others have build the Apostolic Palace, which is okay, I guess.
We've missed on the early wonders, but we're making up for it, now.
We actually have some VIPs :
Churchill has the Mausoleum of Mausoles. That will be a hard grab. Churchill is sort of a runaway and he has the Statue of Zeus on top. Just for kicks.
Ramesses has loaded his Holy City with a Shrine, the Great Library and the Parthenon. Memphis is our major war target. It's deep within his territory, however. Ramesses also has marble, which we could use if we get there soon enough (Taj Mahal). It's not sure we can get there in time, though.

That's all. They also have founded Taoism.
There won't be any fancy play with Liberalism, here. A modest pick will be a good pick.

What else ? We're not 1st in GNP anymore. F1, this is always informative :

Spoiler :

Stats screen, showing infrastructure and improvements :

Spoiler :

Infra is well on its way. Only 1 forge but 3 more are in progress.
Theatres are for border control.


I haven't switched into Bureaucy, yet, because I was still contemplating a Caste System switch at the time.
Now, I think our northern GPP producing cities whill whip a few catapults to help with the war effort. I'd like to get about 15 catapults, asap, at least 10, so we don't have to worry too much about reinforcements when the war breaks out.


Anything more ?

It's been a lot of tech trades screens, yes. But, really, this is what this set has been about. Navigating through a sea of trades.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

1 AD, as good a comparison point as any other :

Spoiler :

So, there's this little skirmish:

Spoiler :

Asoka has settled right between the two barb cities, with rice in the first ring. This isn't too good.

We beg 60 gold from Ramesses, giving us a 10 turns peace treaty.
That makes the envisioned DoW date in ten turns.

Spoiler :

And we feed Churchill and Asoka Compass and Construction for HBR and some more gold.
Those two dudes have radically raised their espionage investment. We'll lose vision over their tech path, soon.

A few more Forges are built. Population is whipped.
2 Catapults are out.

We're standing at 1 AD.
Overview:

Spoiler :

Techs:

Spoiler :

Stats:

Spoiler :

Nothing spectacular happened, so far, just a low-risk expansion game. Withouth being tremendous, the situation is acceptable.
In retrospect, it's apparent we've missed on a few things.

Caste System:
We couldn't find the window of opportunity to switch into this civic.
I recognized that fact very late: too late. Our northern cities would be better developped if they hadn't run scientists for so long.
The lost production, there, is considerable (about 70 food, plus growing into unhealth).
It isn't as if the loss was absolute, however. We have 3 cities with 100+ gpp stored. That will make it that much easier to pop Great Persons when the Empire is ready (Liberalism race in mind).
Overall, delaying the Great Persons isn't too bad either. There isn't much we could have done with the earlier GPs (bulbing Philosophy, sure...).

Astronomy bulb:
Another miss. Bulbing Astronomy before reaching Civil Service is tough.
The best chance we could have had would involve early Philosophy, I think. But even then, the beaker cost of Metal Casting, Compass, Machinery and Optics is a serious obstacle.
As it is, we'll get Astronomy after Printing Press and after Liberalism as well, provided we can be first to Lib.

Early war:
That was a complete miss.
Maybe someone will show up with some successful early harassment / conquest, making good use of Woody 2 units.
Going for the pigs grab in the North East and for 7 settlers did prevent us from making any early agressive move (that could have made for a spectacular game).
As it is, we'll go to war a little before 300 AD.
From the position we're in, one could argue Cuirassiers would do a better job than Macemen (and it's possible they would) but I find being AGG is a good enough incentive to use melee. Also, if we use melee, we can focus on getting economic techs, rather than military ones.
We'll see how it goes, it's possible the war against Ramesses gets ugly (if he goes he Feudalism into Machinery, for example).
Did I mention Ramesses has marble? Getting control over that tile is high priority to build the Epics and, maybe, some wonder (Taj Mahal). We'll be getting there late, however, so this is sort of a miss as well.


War targets:
We can bribe Stalin on either Asoka or Ramesses.
Asoka being sandwiched between us would make for an easier invasion. We share a very long border, so it's conceivable to capture 3 or 4 cities on the first two turns of a war.
That would be easier with a mounted play (Cuirassiers), however. With Macemen, we'd need a very large amount of units before being able to afford that (say... 3 maces, 3 cats for each city...).
So, essentially, while the war against Asoka could be easier, just looking at the lay of the land, the time required for the build-up would be longer.
Against Ramesses, we've got a rather straight invasion route going North-South, straight into Memphis (Parthenon, Great Library, Jewish Shrine).
Finally, if would be nice if Asoka did found the Mahabodi before we invade him.
EDIT : Finally : all of Ramesses' cities on the way to Memphis are on flatland. So we'll have an easy time capturing them (even against Longbows), as long as we don't stumble upon a stack of Crossbows.

Save is attached, for those of you who are curious or have played up to this point already.

 

[shpeka]

Great writeup, BIC!

I haven't had such fun since Kossin wrote his deity adventures.

Keep 'em going, there are a lot of people here that are not afraid of big chunks of text.

p.s.: Participation? Lots of land, deity, continents. A bit too much of a challenge for me.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks, shpeka, I'll continue this fairy tale when I have the time and energy.

The way I do this is I spam saves while playing and then review the saves, looking for meaningful screenshots. So it does take a little time.

I haven't played much during the forum's downtime, so I wouldn't forget what happened.
So I don't have a whole, overwhelming lot of updating to do.

Still, I can tell I've played up to 620 AD and am sort of sitting pretty.


Oh, come on, I can't leave you like that.
Here are a couple of teaser screenshots at 620 AD :

Spoiler :

War in progress.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

From 1 to 250 AD (turns 115-125) :

Spoiler :

At 1 AD, we're preparing for war against Ramesses. This is the focus of this update.

Ramesses has 13 cities and room for some more.
At least 6 of his cities are size 8+ and, thus, highly productive ones.
We don't have vision over his demographics but it is safe to assume that his military is much larger than our (almost non-existant) one: 4 Jaguars, 3 Axemen, 2 Catapults...
We're getting Machinery (Macemen) next turn.
Clearview of Egyptian lands:

Spoiler :

The good news is that Ramesses is one of the two backwards AIs on our landmass: he has neither Metal Casting, Feudalism, nor Civil Service.
Once again, it is safe to assume, however, that he will get those techs in short order.
Longbows aren't much of a problem against AGG Macemen, especially considering most of his cities are on flatland. Macemen shouldn't be troublesome either against City Raider units. However, Crossbows could be a pain.

So, first thing, before declaring war, we need to reach some kind of critical mass of units, so as to be able to capture cities and keep marching within Ramesses' territory.
If we're forced to stop our advance, Ramesses' cities will produce an endless stream of units that will force us to invest a lot more heavily in our military.
On the opposite, if our force is such that we can conquer swiftly, then it will deny Ramesses the ability to reinforce.

Reaching a critical mass of units,
Has to be weighted against declaring war sooner.
The sooner the war is declared, the more backwards Ramesses will be, and the easier it will be to clear a large number of his units.
So we probably won't be able to reach said critical mass before DoWing.
What we can do, howver, is assemble an operational stack of units, start capturing a few cities and keep up the military building until we reach that critical mass.

Fortunately, it's a sure thing that we can bribe Stalin against Ramesses, so we will have at least one war ally.


There are some other things we want to do during these next few turns.
A/ We're producing 4 espionage per turn. Asoka is now investing 7 points per turn on us and Churchill 12. So we can't afford to split the points anymore. It would be nice to raise our espionage output, so as to keep some information over those rivals.
B/ Teching up. We don't want to fall completely backwards, just because we'd have started a war. So we need to preserve our population count and commerce output. At some points, popping Great Scientists to bulb into Education/Printing Press/Astronomy is also very appealing.
C/ Exploration. Optics is only one tech away. We need that one soon. The upside is much higher than that of any other tech (even Paper), because it will let us meet the other AIs. From that point on, we'll be able to trade techs with 4 additional partners and, very important, to know how secure any Liberalism play is. It's possible a rival already is researching Liberalism, right? Such knowledge should affect our research plans.
Conveniently enough, we have a spare Scout within Churchill's territory. That one will be able to board a Caravel when we have one. Since we have Jaguars (and can promote them against barbarian cities), the Scout medic isn't very appealing.
D/ Finally, infrastructure. We're doing fine regarding our Granary count (9), Library (6), and even Barracks (4) but we could use some additional Forges, having only 5 at the moment.
Typically, it's better to get the Forge first and then the units. That is, if the city is going to produce enough hammers to justify the Forge in the first place.
Regarding Barracks: we'll get a mix of Macemen and Catapults in the cities where we have one.
In cities without Barracks, we'll mostly get Catapults.

Catapults are the epitome of sacrificial units, so having some not promoted isn't a problem. Which is more, the first promotion only unlocks City Raider, whereas Accuracy is the nice promo to have (double bombardment speed).
The extra 3xp is nice to have on Macemen, however. Those are very durable units and the additional survivability is most welcome. Essentially, once we're deep into the war, we're aiming to have a horde of CR3 Macemen, which would make it unnecessary to build any more.
If we can successfully get to that point, we will be able to focus only on Siege and Counter-units, which will make it that much easier to keep research up and compete with the other AIs.


Short notice about military production.
In the abstract, to maximize production, we need to combine city management and worker use.
--> Workers farm, chop and eventually mine.
--> Cities whip at maximum population // maximum food surplus.
Both aspects go hand in hand, since a worker that completes a farm allows a city to grow 1 more size and get 1 more food surplus.
Here, we have to accept that some cities are more productive than others.
It would be foolish to 2pop whip every city down to size 2: they would lose all natural production they have AND would lose a lot of food surplus. That would be a sure way to go broke, on top of being inefficient = losing commerce and production.

If you're in doubt, it's a good practice to compare the hammer output of a size 4 city with 4 food surplus with that of a size 6 city with 6 food surplus.
Growing on grassland farms increases production.


That was a long intro.

25 AD, we get Machinery and start to combine Macemen production with Catapults.
Research is directed to Optics.

Here's a clearview of our core:

Spoiler :

Our two northern cities stop producing GPP and contribute non-promoted catapults.
Tenochtitlan completes some infrastructure before starting on Macemen. It has another Monastery to build before then.
Tlacopan completes its Forge before starting on non-promoted catapults.
Calixtlahuaca is a dedicated commerce city and won't contribute much.
Tlatelolco, Tlaxcala and Xochicalco are set (Barracks, Forge) and go full on Macemen, with the odd Catapult here and there.

50 AD, we break the 300 bpt threshold.
75 AD is the turn we capture the last Barbarian city:

Spoiler :

We now have 2 6xp Jaguars. Our western troops head for the Egyptian front, except for a lone unit that will explore Stalin's lands.

So, on 100 AD, we get Optics. We immediately insert 2 Caravels in our build queues.
One will depart from the north-eastern coast and another from the west coast.
At that point, research is set to Paper. Astronomy bulb is hopeless, at that point, but we can still Liberalism --> something.
Units start streaming down:

Spoiler :

At this point, some workers are tasked with roading.
This isn't too important for the first units we train but it is crucial that reinforcements can stream quickly down the map.
With the northern lands mostly developped, the bulk of our workforce has moved south, where we have a lot of jungle clearing to do.
Naturally, the riverside is cleared first, and farms are the first improvements (after resource specials).

Jungle cities have only a limited number of tiles to work.
That means they're prime locations for whipping. A city like Xochicalco is actually a powerhouse, even from its 4 tiles. It can whip 6 --> 4 every 4 turns...


150 AD, our first Caravel sails away, and will greet the scout aboard in a few turns :

Spoiler :

We make some preparations in our southern enclave, so it can hold its own. A few units, a Sac Altar :

Spoiler :

We're now getting Paper. Unfortunately, our gold count has reduced drastically. So we will have to bank gold for a while (into Education).
The second Caravel is whipped in the West in 175 AD.

By 225 AD, the Peace Treaty with Ramesses expires. We've produced 10 Macemen and 9 Catapults.
This is a functional number but they're still in transit, of course.

We'll declare war on the next turn, 250 AD, with 2 more Macemen produced.
We can bribe Stalin and Churchill (!) into the war. Churchill neighbouring Ramesses is very nice, here, since it will make the war a whole lot easier for us :

Spoiler :

Here's what the front looks like :

Spoiler :

We're sort of rewarded for Ramesses being so backwards. At least the first city capture will be an easy one. We're going for the culture bombed city first, so as to get control over our tiles again.
We have two scouts in the west, to check the walled city of Alexandria, a potential 2nd target, unless we head straight south, towards Thebes and Memphis. That would have the benefit of some additional speed. And war ally Stalin can ensure Alexandria's units don't bother us, messing with Ramesses' reinforcement route.

Situation in the north :

Spoiler :

With the first wave of units produced, Xochicalco is now getting its Sacrifical Altar, to soak up whip anger.
We'll keep reinforcing as much as possible and try to double our army count (roughly).

Finally, the western Caravel makes a nice discovery : a cluster of islands :

Spoiler :

 

[soundjata]

So where are the scary monsters ?

Spoiler :

Across the sea ?

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh ! Very nice, I love this pic !

We meet the Scary Monsters in the next set.
They're a bit unprepared, not sure they deserve the title, yet.