Mining, Writing, GL, Phil, NC?

[Zeknichov]

Is this going to be the cookie-cutter opening?

 

[Randall Turner]

A Wonder-centric strategy in general (GL is key) seems like it might be the way to go, though I'm not sure about the secondary tech choices - mining for chopping, yeah, but maybe one more. (Aside from Masonry if you have Marble, that's a no-brainer.)

Problem is that if you miss, argh. Wrecks the whole game if you invest that much early production without a payoff. Don't see another high payoff early strategy, though.

 

[Zeknichov]

A Wonder-centric strategy in general (GL is key) seems like it might be the way to go, though I'm not sure about the secondary tech choices - mining for chopping, yeah, but maybe one more. (Aside from Masonry if you have Marble, that's a no-brainer.)

Problem is that if you miss, argh. Wrecks the whole game if you invest that much early production without a payoff. Don't see another high payoff early strategy, though.

I dislike wonder centric strategies as well because of the "what if you miss" scenarios. The only issue is that wonders got such a buff this game it almost seems like you have to rush for wonders or get left way behind.

I wonder how beneficial rushing The Hanging Gardens would be as an alternative. With a quick expansion and hanging gardens perhaps the loss of the science can be gained from your cities to even things out. I would guess you would run into happiness problems quite fast though.

 

[Polycrates]

I hope it doesn't...I hate these fixed opening gambits, and I really hoped this patch had gotten rid of them. But given that GL keeps its tech, it may be that this remains the way to go.

Certainly, rushing to Education while picking up the Liberty finisher or Hagia Sophia to rush-buy the Porcelain Tower seems like it might be a pretty default strategy now. Porcelain Tower seems just so ridiculously overpowered as to make it a must-build. Hopefully it won't combine with the GL->NC gambit to make some fixed mega-build.

Hanging Gardens, on the other hand, is interesting. Building that in a Tradition capital with Monarchy could be a very nice alternate road. And you've got colosseums and Circus Maximus right there to help with happiness too.

 

[Randall Turner]

while picking up the Liberty finisher

HS, yep. That Liberty GP isn't coming in soon enough to help with the Porcelain Tower, though. That's one of the things I noticed - without playing a culture civ, the speculation that finishing the Liberty tree happens soon enough to help out w/Theology or Education wonders doesn't seem to hold true. ymmv.

 

[Zeknichov]

I hope it doesn't...I hate these fixed opening gambits, and I really hoped this patch had gotten rid of them. But given that GL keeps its tech, it may be that this remains the way to go.

Certainly, rushing to Education while picking up the Liberty finisher or Hagia Sophia to rush-buy the Porcelain Tower seems like it might be a pretty default strategy now. Porcelain Tower seems just so ridiculously overpowered as to make it a must-build. Hopefully it won't combine with the GL->NC gambit to make some fixed mega-build.

Hanging Gardens, on the other hand, is interesting. Building that in a Tradition capital with Monarchy could be a very nice alternate road. And you've got colosseums and Circus Maximus right there to help with happiness too.

I wonder if you stayed as 1 city if you would have time to go for NC then Longswords like you did prepatch. Could I still realistically go for NC, pump out a bunch of warriors as I beeline to longswords. Attack my first civ after iron working then go for Porcelain Tower after steel? I wonder if it would be manageable or if the AI would most definitely beat me to Porcelain tower if I went for Steel even though I got both the GL and NC.

Going to be my first test after I get home.

 

[_hero_]

I don't really think so. It's a solid opening, but it's not so superior to other options that you must do it now. On the higher difficulties, it's going to be quite a gamble to base your strategy around a wonder.

I see 4 options now.
1. GL->NC like you listed.
2. Tradition>Hanging Gardens
3. Liberty>Rex
4. Honor>Barb hunting>fill out the tree quickly and wage war with your super troops.

I think you'll find on Emperor and higher that GL->NC is too slow and will often get you wiped to an early invasion now depending on how close and whom your neighbors are. Delaying it to make extra troops will usually cost you the GL. I think it can still work well with a few civs, like Egypt (cheaper wonders), France (can get either a free worker or Aristocracy really early), Babylon (because science based strategies always are great for them), but most of the civs aren't going to dominate with an NC rush now.

 

[Txurce]

I think you'll find on Emperor and higher that GL->NC is too slow and will often get you wiped to an early invasion now depending on how close and whom your neighbors are.

I think it can still work well with a few civs, like Egypt (cheaper wonders), France (can get either a free worker or Aristocracy really early), Babylon (because science based strategies always are great for them), but most of the civs aren't going to dominate with an NC rush now.

I used this strat with Babylon, and had to delay the NC to fight off Greece. That's where the Bowmen come in very handy. I didn't build my second city until turn 78, and it turned out to be my last - there was no room left for any more. All the rest (in a Science victory) came from conquest.

 

[sebasm]

I've tried the GL->NC strategy today twice on Emperor and while I managed to get them done it just took way too long. Got DoW'd and while I could fight them off I was left with looking forward to Rifles with no real options of expansion. I did not continue the games but I expect I would've just been too much behind by the time I got to rifles to be able to make a meaningful push.

 

[Martin Alvito]

It isn't an option on standard speed, Deity. At least, I haven't managed to pull it off yet after ten attempts with Babylon. I'm being greedy and trying to GL Theology, but I'm always limited, so trying for Theo isn't impacting my odds of getting the GL.

I suspect that the only way it's going to work on Deity is with Egypt, Aristocracy and a hard-built Worker. That introduces a large risk of getting killed by an AI.

EDIT: Yup, got it that way the turn before I died to an 8 Warrior rush. Oligarchy is such a worthless Deity policy.

EDIT 2: Better start, loaned out per turn surplus to rush a Granary (2 Wheat, Deer) and push up pop for . Hit a ruin as well, so tried Monument and Liberty for Worker, built Warrior with saved . GL went up on turn 28, about six turns before I could have finished. Did avoid the DoW that way.

 

[Polycrates]

HS, yep. That Liberty GP isn't coming in soon enough to help with the Porcelain Tower, though. That's one of the things I noticed - without playing a culture civ, the speculation that finishing the Liberty tree happens soon enough to help out w/Theology or Education wonders doesn't seem to hold true. ymmv.

Good to know.
Perhaps with a staffed temple or two, that might change? And prioritising the "reduction in city culture cost" policy? I'd imagine it could well be worth the expense, given that you're getting two powerful wonder effects AND a great scientist out of the finisher policy (provided nobody has built them already, and given that the AI isn't so wonder-happy any more that's probably a reasonable gamble).

 

[Randall Turner]

You have Marble in those test games, Martin?

I don't know how much of a cheat re-rolling for it is. Pretty mild, imo.

 

[Rittmeyer]

You have Marble in those test games, Martin?

I don't know how much of a cheat re-rolling for it is. Pretty mild, imo.

this may not be a cheat, but it's certainly no opening strategy either... not if it only works when you have marble...

 

[Randall Turner]

this may not be a cheat, but it's certainly no opening strategy either... not if it only works when you have marble...

"re-rolling" == restarting until you do have it. I think it is a cheat, but that's an aside - what I'm asking here is whether or not he had it in his tests.

(It's real common to not have it hooked up in time for the GL, too, but it's possible, and likely for NC etc.)

 

[Martin Alvito]

No on both Egypt tries. IIRC, I had it once with Babylon. Didn't do me any good; I think that was one of those games where the GL was gone by turn 30.

The only way to have Marble fast enough is to settle or hut luck it. It's very difficult to hut luck it with Babylon, since Pottery -> Writing is obligatory.

 

[Sainhann]

Well in the first game that I started after the patch Standard size Pangea map King with Arabia I got lucky with a hut and was able to start up The Hanging Garden.

10+ food means that I quickly built a size ten city very quickly. This helped when Washington declared on me and sent his army at me. He lost every unit except the Archers who retreated.

A big city early means you are building things fast due to having the workers to work the land.

Though happiness can quickly head into the gutter. It was a good thing that I had a Great Engineer sitting around since I need the Notre Dame Cathedral quick.

Working on the getting happiness up into the positives.

As for Washingtion he keeps on giving me offers of Peace Treaties that are asking for all of my money along with most of what I make per turn and one of my cities.

I think that I will need to teach him a lesson.

 

[dubrown]

I've only done one attempt on emperor so far with the new patch, Aimed for the GL gambit and missed by 7 turns which ofc set me back as my library now was delayed as I had to hard build it, the cash earned from the initial exploring/resource trading had went to a granary to be able to work more hammers.

I dare to say the safest opening with a research aim is still going for an NC start, though with NC moved up the techtree you probably can afford a second city with a liberty opening and rushbuying a library there without delaying NC.

 

[Zeknichov]

Well I got home to test this and omg did they ever boost the aggressiveness of the AI. This strat cannot work on deity from what I've seen. I don't think wonders are even a viable option. I've been DOWed within 20 turns 3 times now. Each time I've had 3 warriors. The AI doesn't wait around. I haven't figured out how to avoid a dow right off the start. Warrior warrior warrior warrior lol.

 

[darune]

This strat is doable on Immortal if GL is build aggresively (hard build one worker and get the other free from liberty and chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, chop). At least that worked in my current game. I was even greedily delaying GL to free tech Theology (however that may have been a bit risky - not sure here).

On Diety i have a hard time imagining it (the AI seems to love GL).

Btw. how bad is it if they beat you on wonder. You get a chunk of gold in return, but anyone know the percentage ?

 

[Montov]

This strat is doable on Immortal if GL is build aggresively (hard build one worker and get the other free from liberty and chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, chop). At least that worked in my current game. I was even greedily delaying GL to free tech Theology (however that may have been a bit risky - not sure here).

On Diety i have a hard time imagining it (the AI seems to love GL).

Btw. how bad is it if they beat you on wonder. You get a chunk of gold in return, but anyone know the percentage ?

100%.

So it is always better to build a Wonder than building wealth, if there is a wonder to build of course.