Mining, Writing, GL, Phil, NC?

[Martin Alvito]

I found that it appears to be more consistent to go Pottery->Writing->Mining.

Yes, which de-emphasizes the first Worker. You need it, but not in a hurry. You can generally steal one and pop another in the Liberty tree in time, so you aren't locked into hard-building a Worker. You can build your Monument and Scouts/military, then start on the GL immediately upon researching Writing.

The very first tech you research will be 10 turns no matter what. (Pottery)

Unless you hit a pop ruin. That isn't as good as hitting a tech on the beeline, but it definitely helps and it's a lot more common.

3 tiles also help. One will generally shave a turn from Pottery; two will shave a couple of turns from Writing as well.

And I always make Animal Domestication a priority to find out where the Horses are.

That works well for a lot of strategies, but the GL isn't one of them. Usually you're forced into Calendar or Masonry as the fourth tech.

@ w a i n y: So am I. The GL is a risky play at Deity. There's no doubt of that.

 

[w a i n y]

If you have a calendar or mining lux that you'll be able to get a worker to before you can finish the lux tech, it's often worth going for them first. Likely you'll follow up with a settler after the worker anyways. The pottery -> writing opening got nerfed with the NC first start.
Edit: @Martin Alvito: I'm thinking of deity here, in which case GL wouldn't work. On immortal and below, it might be better to sword or even archer rush than to build the GL for conquest victories. So I'd say the Pottery -> writing -> GL strategy is a good immortal and below builder strategy only.

 

[evahaut]

That works well for a lot of strategies, but the GL isn't one of them. Usually you're forced into Calendar or Masonry as the fourth tech.

On Deity researching Calendar early seems too slow, I always wait with that until I have bulbed Civil Service (bulbed as in the Civil Service slingshot discussion http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=429910). Though I am not sure if I can pull this off on normal (or faster) speed or with anyone other than the Mongols.. the Keshiks are such strong units on slower speeds that they well make up for the lack of development by the time you hit Chivalry.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The downside is that you're locked into a single city for a very long time unless you're playing France.

Even with France you're still locked into 2 cities for a very long time. Slingshots are not hard to do, I just can't produce enough hammers to survive the inevitable attacks that come later.

 

[avl8]

As far as I can see, going pottery/writing/GL atm is the single best strat for both cultural and science victories below deity.

Am I missing something?

 

[Vo01985]

I just want a solid strategy that works on deity, I have been trying loads but I always fall so far behind after about 100 turns that I just tend to give up. Maybe I am too impatient to catch up. On immortal I generally fall behind too but I recover and catch up fast enough

 

[Furycrab]

On the subject of the Great Library... to me it always seems like it's fairly average as choices go if you have to rush it and get a classical tech (Deity), but a bit ridiculous/hard to ignore if you can use it to slingshot into medieval or further.

If I really wanted to change the GL to be in line with other starting wonders at all difficulties, I would just limit it to Classical free techs even if I know it sorta makes it less interesting for Babylon and could get theology legit under 40 turns.

Btw Wish I could tell you how exactly I ended up with this... But playing a game, Standard/Deity/Incans/Pangaea... And I managed to get the GL on turn 70 and Stonehenge is somehow still available at turn 85

Even the AIs I'm against aren't all warmongers, got Isabella, Arabia, Siam, China, Iroquois, Babylon and The Ottomans.

 

[Thalassicus]

I personally like the solution where the GL simply gives 2 free Scientist Specialists, like in Civ 4. It's still useful in the long term, while avoiding the overpowered early slingshots.

 

[MadDjinn]

On the subject of the Great Library... to me it always seems like it's fairly average as choices go if you have to rush it and get a classical tech (Deity), but a bit ridiculous/hard to ignore if you can use it to slingshot into medieval or further.

It's still useful. You get Philosophy for free (17-19 turns of research gone) while spending that time on other techs to prepare for the RAs you'll sign. That, and the free library helps you drop straight into the NC.

It's only when you miss it that it becomes a problem.

 

[w a i n y]

I personally like the solution where the GL simply gives 2 free Scientist Specialists, like in Civ 4. It's still useful in the long term, while avoiding the overpowered early slingshots.

This would be totally overpowered in CiV, due to the increased power of each individual specialist and the increased usefulness of Great Scientists relative to other GPs. Even one free science specialist (when you can only have 3 for most of the game) would be worth an extra 1 or even 2 great scientists, in addition to the substantial research boost over the course of a game.

 

[MadDjinn]

I personally like the solution where the GL simply gives 2 free Scientist Specialists, like in Civ 4. It's still useful in the long term, while avoiding the overpowered early slingshots.

lol... overpowered sling shot ...

This would be totally overpowered in CiV, due to the increased power of each individual specialist and the increased usefulness of Great Scientists relative to other GPs. Even one free science specialist (when you can only have 3 for most of the game) would be worth an extra 1 or even 2 great scientists, in addition to the substantial research boost over the course of a game.

2 slots = 6 gs points/turn ~= 17 turns until the first GS. so hmm... 17 turns = easy medieval slingshot to Steel even on Deity. Nope, not OP at all...

Babylon would just GS pop to Rifles again (and could likely ignore Universities to do it.. again)

 

[Txurce]

lol... overpowered sling shot ...

Are you saying it's not OP? Because if it isn't, why is there an entire thread devoted to how best pull it off?

LOL.

 

[Furycrab]

It's still useful. You get Philosophy for free (17-19 turns of research gone) while spending that time on other techs to prepare for the RAs you'll sign. That, and the free library helps you drop straight into the NC.

It's only when you miss it that it becomes a problem.

Well ya, but just saying that some people here are saying it's a bit too powerful on lower difficulties, which I'm inclined to agree, but only because you can use it to do some pretty powerful slingshots and it makes the other Ancient Era wonders look terrible in comparison.

On Deity it's a decent choice, just not a broken choice, so I would think that if you really wanted to make it feel of the same "power" on all difficulties, I'd just limit the free tech you get from it to classical techs.

 

[Thalassicus]

This would be totally overpowered in CiV, due to the increased power of each individual specialist and the increased usefulness of Great Scientists relative to other GPs.

And if scientists and great scientists are balanced to be equally useful as the other specialist types...?

In the balance mod scientists give 2 (instead of 3), and great scientists give a limited amount of research (instead of unlimited). Merchants and great merchants are also improved to be more useful.

Even one free science specialist (when you can only have 3 for most of the game) would be worth an extra 1 or even 2 great scientists, in addition to the substantial research boost over the course of a game.

The balance mod also makes each individual specialist slot less important, because the availability of specialist slots is increased, especially for tall empires. This makes an earlier specialist economy viable for tall empires (like in Civ 4). This adds strategic depth and complexity to the game since there's two possible ways to develop our economy.

 

[Furycrab]

Are you saying it's not OP? Because if it isn't, why is there an entire thread devoted to how best pull it off?

LOL.

It's all relative... I mean sure it feels cool, but it's still just one free tech. Nothing you will pull off with it is going to be ground breaking because no matter how you use it you can have access to free techs in other ways later.

 

[Thalassicus]

The power of the Great Library is consistently rated over the power of other world wonder options. Just look at strategy discussions like this very thread, or the Wonder Elimination Thread. I like options to be equally balanced and useful.

 

[MadDjinn]

The power of the Great Library is consistently rated over the power of other world wonder options. Just look at strategy discussions like this very thread, or the Wonder Elimination Thread. I like options to be equally balanced and useful.

then it's rated by people who play on lower diff. levels. They should move up another level and try again. Getting anything more than a classical tech requires either pure luck, (the right free tech(s) from ruins) playing on a low diff. level, or changing the game. (using a mod or changing the XML directly)

Sure, the GL as is gives a decent start; if you can pull it off. There's risk-reward for you.

By far Hagia Sophia is the current most OP wonder. the GL doesn't even compare. This thread is talking only about a specific opener, not other wonders.

getting the HG is just as valid a choice in some circumstances, and even more powerful than the GL. But again, it's risk-reward.

It's a completely different thread to discuss opening with Honour and going barb hunting. I've completed the entire Honour tree, Quick speed - Emperor diff in MP - within 70 turns. And that's with only a monument and my capital, and the rest came from barbs. (I had ~4cpt, so there was likely the NC or something else there)

 

[RiceAndChine]

By far Hagia Sophia is the current most OP wonder. the GL doesn't even compare. This thread is talking only about a specific opener, not other wonders.

getting the HG is just as valid a choice[...]

I completely agree. The hagia is just broken I think. The free GP is way over the top.

And I also agree that the GL doesnt give you that much of a boost. Sure its a free tech and lib. But on Deity you really have to RUSH it (so chop chop chop) to get it, and in most circumstances I avoid it completely to get out some units to defend. The AI gets more n more aggro if you go for scout->monu->worker->wonder or even scout->orker->wonder. =)

 

[Thalassicus]

@MadDjinn
What I'm pointing out is about A, not B:

• Great Library -vs- other early wonders
• Going for a wonder -vs- not going for a wonder

To put it another way...

We're having this do-or-don't discussion about the GL and Hagia Sophia, not the Great Lighthouse and Angkor Wat. I think we can agree the first two are better than the second two. That's the basic point, not if wonders are better/worse on a particular difficulty level.

 

[Furycrab]

On a side note, there's some serious randomness based just on who you have on the map and what type of map.

On Island hop maps, on Deity, I've found it hard to get any wonders, if Egypt is on the map even PT and HS is hard to get.

So going GL --> NC won't quite work... On the other hand, I started a Pangaea game where it was a even mix of Civs but no Egypt and many wonders were available (I got a GL on turn 70 with Stonehenge available at turn 85 and ruins ON), but by turn 100ish it was getting seriously aggressive. Getting the wonders did seem to impact my survival chances.

P.S.: Been messing about with peaceful games on Deity... I hate them with a passion... On top of being boring, I feel like I'm always on the edge on a bad AI decision that will send my entire game plan to shambles.

I have this culture game going with Polynesia, and everything is setup, it's just now I get to spend the next 80-100 turns wondering if an AI will twitch and sneeze me out.