Mining, Writing, GL, Phil, NC?

[killerloop]

I just did a deity on quick:

Monty GLib on turn 19, Pyrs on 35

Harun built Colussus on turn 17, SH on turn 27 and on turn 29 he DoWs me and shows up with 10 units, 3 Archers, 7 Warriors. Wow!! I managed to survive with 2 archers and a bought warrior. At turn 28 he already had 42 gpt (= a warrior per turn) By turn 50 I gave up, as Harun was teching away with 2% per turn. By then he was slaughtering Monty with his Pikes, Horses and a Knight and had 10 cities!!

How do you do 42 gpt with 3 cities, must be lux trades, I guess, with the 2 settlers and 2 workers.

Any ideas how a mortal guy like me should win such a game?

 

[Randall Turner]

I just did a deity on quick:

Monty GLib on turn 19, Pyrs on 35

<snip>

Any ideas how a mortal guy like me should win such a game?

I'm not sure anyone can, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Civsassin]

I just did a deity on quick:

Monty GLib on turn 19, Pyrs on 35

Harun built Colussus on turn 17, SH on turn 27 and on turn 29 he DoWs me and shows up with 10 units, 3 Archers, 7 Warriors. Wow!! I managed to survive with 2 archers and a bought warrior. At turn 28 he already had 42 gpt (= a warrior per turn) By turn 50 I gave up, as Harun was teching away with 2% per turn. By then he was slaughtering Monty with his Pikes, Horses and a Knight and had 10 cities!!

How do you do 42 gpt with 3 cities, must be lux trades, I guess, with the 2 settlers and 2 workers.

Any ideas how a mortal guy like me should win such a game?

Mortals aren't supposed to win on Deity. It's called Deity after all.

 

[Calouste]

Mortals aren't supposed to win on Deity. It's called Deity after all.

Mortals aren't even suppossed to beat Immortal. Well, maybe if you're Odysseus or Heracles you can beat Immortals, but there are few other documented cases.

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree the Great Library -> NC strat is a bit too clear-cut right now, which is why I lessened its strength in TBC. It's more fun to have a variety of potential opening strategies, instead of one or two especially powerful openers.

 

[aimlessgun]

I agree the Great Library -> NC strat is a bit too clear-cut right now, which is why I lessened its strength in TBC. It's more fun to have a variety of potential opening strategies, instead of one or two especially powerful openers.

Rather extreme change though. You're paying more than double hammers over a normal library just to get +3 science?

 

[Thalassicus]

The actual breakdown in TBC with the free tech removed is:

Great Library
110 net cost over a Library
+5
+1
+1
+1
Excludes other leaders from the bonuses.

This is approximately the same production cost as a Colosseum and Temple (100 each). I've seen opinions stated several wonders are overpowered, so I suspect an overall reduction in power for the GL is justified. If necessary I'll add an extra science point or two.

I feel it's most exciting for each of the world and national wonders at a given tech level to be about equal in value, with a wide variety of strategies to pursue.

 

[vexing]

+free tech. it's well worth the additional hammer cost on difficulties where you can get it (ie not deity).

 

[MadDjinn]

+free tech. it's well worth the additional hammer cost on difficulties where you can get it (ie not deity).

yup.

Though, I've seen the AI go for the Pyramids before the GL post-patch. It's likely due to having to get Masonry for the stone though.

There has been times where the GL goes on turn 39+ now, while the Pyramids are going on turn 29+. Of course, that's still rare.

 

[snarzberry]

You can build the GL on deity if you pop Pottery or Writing from a ruin, yes that only happens a small percentage of the time, but worth remembering as if you do get lucky this way and manage to build it then it really can catapult you forwards.

I just finished a deity game as the Babs where I popped Writing and built the GL on turn 36. By turn 79 the capital also had the HS and PT, National College, 2 academies and a university. Also had a second city and had researched to Astronomy.

It's not gonna happen often but the opportunity presents itself now and again.

 

[vexing]

I just finished a deity game as the Babs where I popped Writing and built the GL on turn 36

you still needed some further amount of luck given that the AI can complete it well before 36. it's not a safe bet in any deity game, unless you don't mind restarting 9 of 10 games when it's failed.

 

[snarzberry]

you still needed some further amount of luck given that the AI can complete it well before 36. it's not a safe bet in any deity game, unless you don't mind restarting 9 of 10 games when it's failed.

OK, you're not saying that you estimate the probability of successfully completing the GL on deity, given that you can do so by turn 36, as .1? I'll assume you're talking about a regular game, one where you're not gifted a lucky tech.

It isn't a safe bet, but if you pop pottery on turn 3 and have some forest to chop then I don't think you need to be too lucky to get it. You may be a favourite, although I haven't played enough games since the patch to be confident of knowing the average finishing time. So far I'd say it seems in the mid to late 30's most often. Does that seem off the mark?

It's not a game-over moment anyway because you'll only be attempting it after a lucky occurrence which increased your chances of winning the game. You are just wagering some of the win equity you picked up from the lucky ruin in order to gamble on getting the GL. It could work out to be the best play sometimes, even if you think your fail rate is something like 50%.

 

[vexing]

So far I'd say it seems in the mid to late 30's most often. Does that seem off the mark?

i have only started a couple games on deity, so i clearly haven't done an exhaustive analysis, however just in this thread people have been consistently saying pre 35 it's done. it undoubtedly matters somewhat on the leaders you roll. leaders with high science flavor are likely to tech writing first, leaders with high wonder flavor are likely to build it first.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I've run some tests with the ruins off, and the GL will go sometime between the late 30's and 50 on standard speed, Deity. That's slow enough that you can get it, but not slow enough to slingshot Medieval (except with Babylon).

The downside is that you're locked into a single city for a very long time unless you're playing France.

 

[Tabarnak]

Tried another game at deity standard everything, continents, ruins enabled(got 4 of them) and random civs(DLC included). I picked Darius and spawned close to Babylon. I didn't go for the GL but this wonder have been built at turn 69. Babylon built the HG. I declared war to him, i throwed 2 archers, 1 cat and 3 swords(had 4 iron) and 2 spears and i almost conquered his 2nd big city for a big hurt...at 1 hp left . My wounded army got owned by archers right after the last attack. It was a better game than my previous one. Didn't get DoWed at all. We were 3 civs on the continent. Babylon already had 5 cities when i fought him.

But i did go for NC first and managed to keep sufficient forces to prevent a DoW(at least in this game) with 2 archers and 3 warriors before a library. Built another city, but only had 3 luxs total for both cities. Hadn't enough place for a 3rd one.

A 6 iron tile is crucial for a more powerful swords/cats attack with a 3rd city.

 

[Plasmo]

A bit of oddness for y'all. I think I got the new record for latest GL on deity at turn 81. I've never played deity before so I was going full-on defensive mode as Babylon in a standard game on continents plus with ruins on. Grabbed archery and went to masonry to build some fancy walls. Built a couple archers for defense but never really needed them. Eventually used the writing GS to bulb Phil and build NC. When I saw that GL hadn't gone up at that point I decided to give it a shot just for giggles and got it. I know I'll be curb-stomped soon, but I'll enjoy this bit of silliness while it lasts.

 

[Txurce]

A bit of oddness for y'all. I think I got the new record for latest GL on deity at turn 81. I've never played deity before so I was going full-on defensive mode as Babylon in a standard game on continents plus with ruins on. Grabbed archery and went to masonry to build some fancy walls. Built a couple archers for defense but never really needed them. Eventually used the writing GS to bulb Phil and build NC. When I saw that GL hadn't gone up at that point I decided to give it a shot just for giggles and got it. I know I'll be curb-stomped soon, but I'll enjoy this bit of silliness while it lasts.

The post-patch AI is very erratic in terms of its pursuit of Wonders, so this can happen... although on Deity, I agree you probably did set a record.

 

[joncnunn]

In my own game; since I had Marble in my capital, I did consider the wonder tactic; but rejected it since I'm playing Rome.

I did my Writting & Phio a priority, but not so high as the poster.
I had Luxaries needing Mines, Camps, Quarries, and forest chopping to clear. (Between Rome & Antium; the second hut gave me a bunch of culture so I got my free settler early)

And I always make Animal Domestication a priority to find out where the Horses are. Timing worked out good, my Libarary in the capital got followed by a cash rush in Antium and the Philo tech was discovered two turns after the cash rush.

Gandhi though succeeded in making himself both Washington & my first target. (Founding a city in what would have been my next city; first ring from Rome, he probably did something similar to Washington) Since 1 Spear & 1 Warrior weren't quite enough I had to follow Philology with Iron Working. It seems when I relocated my starting settler, I unknowingly placed it on top of Two Iron. Warrior just upgraded to Legion; 2nd Warrior was under construction which will be upgraded as well. And the city is already size 2 so I'll get to keep it.

 

[snarzberry]

After playing a lot more games since the patch it's clear that the GL goes way to early on average to consider it part of a consistent strategy. I take back my earlier comment, I wouldn't even go for it if I popped pottery or writing from a hut.

 

[MadDjinn]

I found that it appears to be more consistent to go Pottery->Writing->Mining.

The very first tech you research will be 10 turns no matter what. (Pottery) So going Mining first doesn't really change that. Writing will take ~10-12 turns (based upon population and if other AIs went for it) Mining then falls to 6 turns or less, depending on the number of AIs you've met as well as your bpt.

So that's 20-22 turns to writing and turn 25-26 on mining.

if you go Scout->Monument->worker (while food focused to grow) this also takes ~20-25 turns; depending on the terrain.

So given you don't have a worker until you steal one, get it free from Liberty or build one, there's no need to grab Mining. (unless you settled a mining resource)