MLDR003 - NOW in the big D

[Northern Pike]

Originally posted by meldor
I would like to cut the Babs off, but it may already be too late.

Yes, that ship may have left the dock. If we just want to found useful cities while keeping a compact, defensible position, we should consider the grassland site NNE of Istanbul, on the river, at corruption distance 3.5.

 

[Coffee]

Its a good spot but too close for this variant. The end game will likely be in the modern age and we will need the production from well spaced cities.
I estimated for size 16 cities. With all that food I figured 4-5 tiles out and 3-4 tiles between. The first gets the tile area and the second makes it defensable.

Which is what I had in mind when considering the idea of combat settlers and how to use them during expansion.

 

[Northern Pike]

Too close, in a war variant at deity? I don't claim to speak from much personal experience, but the principle which seems to emerge from the heavy-war games which have been played here is the harder the fighting, the denser the build. If we can get to the Modern Age we'll win with any rational build pattern, given the many options available to the player(s) then. I'm just more concerned than you seem to be about our surviving to that point at all.

 

[Belial]

Having well spaced cities is ideal, but you'll always be in war and early on, you want to maximize on production and less corruption (size 12 cities) and the more than likely, you'll draw lots of leaders and workers to push a new core to a very well spaced area after conquoring it. Of course, costs a leader, but I figure you will have lots of them to come.

 

[Coffee]

Thanx for the compliment, but I don't consider myself any more experienced than anyone else in this game. And I do enjoy the dialog. Thats not to say that at some point I won't allow myself some braggin rights.

However, yes I'm confident that the worst is over. The Babs are gassed as has been said. So yes, I do think a wider build is preferred. On winning, well, I'm not as confident. But not planning/preparing early for the end game is likely a mistake. My full nickel.

 

[Coffee]

@Belial, I would say that you can never get a second core like the first. The possible exception is with a palace jump and then your talking about staying within your primary core anyway. So depending on the variant and level I prefer to go 16-18 pop in the center and 12-14 outside. At the corruption mark I just forget it mostly. If this were on Emperor, see Mldr02, sure then size 12 is fine. But thats because the tech pace is slower. I doubt we will be able to research at an equal pace until we get about twice the size of our largest rival. Much of our success here will depend on trading and diplomatic alliances.

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by Arizona_Steve
Sure, but think of the cheap libraries and universities that we're going to need when we start researching for ourselves. You gain some, you lose some...

Yes, but because of the exponential form of our growth-curve the question arises what's more important. If we get walls and raxs in place earlier, not only the libs are started earlier (and thus finished about the same time as if they were cheaper but started later) but also our military situation (the most important fact in this eraly-war variant) is much stronger because more units are vets, they are available earlier because the rax would be finished quickly and walls would be in place faster even in small cities with little production. Most of these aspects don't apply in a standard game because walls and raxs are not built in every city, they are not the number-one priority, less shields are invested in military production and the militaristic trait is therefore less advantageous.
And by the time we are building unis the game certainly is on its way towards victory.

I traded for Writing... only Literature to go... Great Library prebuild anyone?

A prebuild would kill our production, so our options are rushing it with a GL in time (hopefully) or capturing it later.


On city placement: I already stated my preferences for a semi-dense build with 3-tile distances between the sites wherever possible.
However, this is not appropriate in every case (see our cow-city)
As far as Northern's NNE-site is concerned: It could be useful if we capture Eridu, but if we (auto)raze it, we may consider a slightly different location.

 

[meldor]

1500 BC (0)
The workers move to hook up the horses
(I) The Romans start the Great Lighthouse.

1475 BC (1)
Move elite spear to cover workers.
(I) Istanbul archer=>spear. Bursa spear->walls.

1450 BC (2)
Movement.
(I)

1425 BC (3)
Kill off archer outside of Edrine, cover warrior with a spear.
(I) Second archer kills itself on the covering spear. Istanbul spear->chariot

1400 BC (4)
But HBR for 73g and 1gpt. Chariot swaps to horseman. Kill off spear the came to pillage. Warrior and spear retreat to Edrine. Spear on workers steps over to protect our elite archer.
(I) More bowmen appear. Bursa walls->settler.

1375 BC (5)
Move the archer back and the spear goes back to the workers. There are 7 bowmen visible at this time.
(I) One bowman impails himself on a spear at Edrine. The rest advance on the city. Our elite archer dares to attack a regular bowman across the river. he goes to one HP but produces our first leader.


I put the game on hold at this point and defer a question to the other members and lurkers. We have possiblities witht he leader.
1) Save until Math is done, swap for Lit and build the GL.
2) Take settler and build a coastal city, get MM and build the Great Lighthouse.
3) Build a spear or horseman army and get an early HE for even more leaders.
4) Rush a needed building somewhere, Rax, temple, granary, or walls.

I think that 1) is pretty much the way to go, but I might have missed something. Ideas?

 

[LKendter]

I suspect the Pyramids are already built. That would also be awesome.

This early leaders are far and few between. Getting the Great Library would be unreal. My choice is 1.

 

[ChrTh]

We need the GL, I reckon, and on Deity that would be pretty nice. How many Civs do we know, though?

 

[Belial]

A palace jump is what I meant by stating that.

Early on, in deity the AIs have a good count of units they can throw at you and having a denser build means getting defense and offense to city locations much quicker. Also it's a tid bit less work to connect cities which is very important with luxuries and resources. 75% of the game (or in all always war/oscilating wars, are done in the first half of the game). My opinion anyways, I always prefer more widespread builds myself, but it varies from case to case.

For the leader - a pity to miss the pyramids, but I'd say GL would be number one priority, not having to buy tech until, usually, until gunpowder is discovered is a great way to start - especially when getting early libraries and universities for self-research, if chosen to go that route.

Just wanted to explain my reasoning - will continue to lurk, as these types of games are typically my favorite to follow and play.

 

[ChrTh]

Yeah, the Pyramids have been built: I've confirmed (also the Oracle and the Colossus). As of the last save, no one had Lit, but yeah, I'd aim for the GL.

BTW, the KILL order is:
Babylon
India (any chance we can get rid of them before Oliphaunts?)
Rome (UU will be long gone)
Rest unknown...

 

[Coffee]

Thats a good question about the pyramids, I don't remember it being completed. First thoughts: Pyramids or Library, Army. Tough call. Nice turns.

x-post with ChrTh

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Great library, for sure. Leaves us with cash to rush units and infrastructure (once in Monarchy) up until Education. Second leader might want to create a horeseman army for Heroic Epic (not spears, I've noticed the AI seems to steer clear of defensive armies, a fact that makes them DEADLY when it comes to pillaging). The other priorities of course would be Sun Tzu's, Leos and any "happy" wonder, due to our hurting for luxuries.

 

[meldor]

There are currently no wonders available. I would assume that someone will have lit shortly. We can most like trade Math for either it or MapMaking (or both since we know two civs besides the Babs). We would need another leader to get either Sun's and/or Leo's. I think we are a long way from where we can do prebuilds.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, absolutely the Great Library. Good work!

 

[Belisar]

Nice work Meldor.
We need the GL, tech will be one of our problems.
I have played 3 solo emperor AW games, in 2 of them I secured the GL. Now guess which of the 3 I lost
Sun and Leo both would be nice, but I guess we will get at least another leader in time.

I'm now giving us very good chances

EDIT: It suddenly hit me: Are we at war with someone else? You mentioned you killed archers, not bowmen or is it just a typo?

 

[meldor]

1350 BC (6)
OK, after opening the prisons and consulting with past despots, Meldor moves Orhan back down the new road to Edrine into Istanbul to sit safely awaiting the Grand Opeining of the much anticipated Great Library. One of the past leaders is rushed medical aid as Meldor accidental mentions archers instead of calling them Bowmen. The workers, having completed the road, and becuase Istanbul'sborders expnded again, will move to hook up the iron as soon as irigtion is completed. BTW, India has Philosophy, MM and Mysticism, while Rome has the later two. I would assume that India just finished researching Mysticism and we will see what Rome was working on.
(I) Edrine is attacked by three Bows. The first one ooses but the second two kill off our spears. Istanbul horseman->spear

1325 BC (7)
The elite spear moves into Edrine leaving the workers exposed for a turn but in no danger. The spear and two archers from Istanbul also move into the city. Unfortunately none of them could fortify this turn, it being across a river. Both India and Rome show up with CoL, so that was Rome's research. No one has Lit as of now. I was hoping that was what Rome was working on. Maybe the Babs are and they will sell it around.
(I) Istanbul is attacked by two bows but both die on our elite spear with it taking no damage. There are now six bowmen and one spear in the area.

1300 BC (8)
The horseman damages a bow but retreats. We go 1 for two on the archers (not good for us). Both Eridu and Samarra are size 2 if we can ever mount an attack.
(I) Two Bows attack and die, two move off to heal. Ther are 4 Bows in sight. The spear moves towards pillage spots. A settler/spear pair show headed for north of Eridu. Istanbul Spear->Horseman.

1275 BC (9)
No offense this turn. I whip the Rax in Edrine which will help there. Move the archer and horseman back to Istanbul so something can go after the spear and settler/spear pair. All three workers are on the iron to road it. Our *elite archer move to intercept the settler/spear pair.
(I) The Bowmen tire of implaing themselves at Edrine and now advance on Istanbul. The foolish settler/spear pair move next to our *elite archer. Erridu drops back to pop 1 so either a whip was done ro a worker was built. Bursa settler->spear. Edrine Rax->Horseman (once the bow moves we need to work the forest to get the shields).

1250 BC (10)
Our elite archer redlines again, but manages to take out the spear and we have two new slaves. Since it won't keep Math from completing next turn, nor stop Istanbuls production, I set it to have a lone scientist and turn Science off for a turn to get us 2 more gold (Whoopee!). Lit is still unknown on our land mass. My biggest fear right now is that the other landmass is ahead on tech and someone will build the GL before we can rush it. I cross all fingers and toes.

The settler is moving toward Istanbul. I was eyeing the hill two NW and one N as it is on a river or someplace else that is safe for the time bieng. We need another productive city or two if we are to mount a good offensive. I meant to build another settler in Istanbul but we needed the units. It is now size 7, and maybe should build a settler next build. I thought about geting a temple in at Edrine to expand borders, maybe we shold build the GL there to give it some cheap culture.

The hit list:
1) Babylon
2) India
3) Rome

NorthernPike (up)
CtrTh (on deck)
Belisar
Coffee
Arizona_Steve
Meldor

The save at 1250 BC

Our view of the world:

 

[Coffee]

No more comments from me on city placement. Northern Pike is up now -> his call.

 

[Northern Pike]

Originally posted by meldor

The elite spear moves into Edrine leaving the workers exposed for a turn but in no danger. The spear and two archers from Istanbul also move into the city. Unfortunately none of them could fortify this turn, it being across a river.

I may not be picturing this situation correctly, but...if you move units into a city containing even one unused unit, activate that unit, and hit "Fortify All", everything's fortified.

Again, nice work getting the Leader and the slaves.