MNAI-U: unofficial build & bugfixes

[lfgr]

That's not intended. I think the best solution would be to simply forbid rebellions while sanctuary is active. Not sure how hard this is to implement, though.

 

[Bickendan]

As I'm playing a Marathon game with Revolutions on, I'll have some thoughts in a bit as I feel the implementation is far too punishing.

Is it intended for a Kuriotate city under Elohim control (in this instance, Cardith asked to be assimilated into Elohim culture proper from voluntary vassal) to be limited to the conventional fat cross opposed to the Kuriotate/City of a Thousand Slums super city? I can see this both ways -- it can make the Elohim unbalanced if they can have a Kuriotate city at full potential, but it loses on the Kuriotate flavour (outside of the unique buildings and units).
For example: Cardith Lorda has five full cities (assuming huge map) plus a handful of Settlements. The Elohim begin capturing cities. We'll assume there's always a cap of 5 Super Cities (not counting 1000 Slums) per power: As Cardith loses cities, he upgrades a Settlement; as the Elohim capture, they reach the 5 cap, plus any Settlements would be regular Elohim cities.

On the other hand, it feels like the Tolerant trait would include this ability, as the super city isn't part of the Hero limitation explicity spelled out in the tooltip.

 

[Tielby]

Is it intended for a Kuriotate city under Elohim control (in this instance, Cardith asked to be assimilated into Elohim culture proper from voluntary vassal) to be limited to the conventional fat cross opposed to the Kuriotate/City of a Thousand Slums super city? I can see this both ways -- it can make the Elohim unbalanced if they can have a Kuriotate city at full potential, but it loses on the Kuriotate flavour (outside of the unique buildings and units).
For example: Cardith Lorda has five full cities (assuming huge map) plus a handful of Settlements. The Elohim begin capturing cities. We'll assume there's always a cap of 5 Super Cities (not counting 1000 Slums) per power: As Cardith loses cities, he upgrades a Settlement; as the Elohim capture, they reach the 5 cap, plus any Settlements would be regular Elohim cities.

On the other hand, it feels like the Tolerant trait would include this ability, as the super city isn't part of the Hero limitation explicity spelled out in the tooltip.

Personal opinion, that would be overpowered for the Tolerant trait.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Personal opinion, that would be overpowered for the Tolerant trait.

Either it would be overpowered (if they can keep infinite cities at +3 instead of +2) or aggravatingly arbitrary if they couldn't. Plus honestly I think it kind of does fall under the hero exception. I mean, the only reason why the K can maintain their cities like that lore vise is because their empire is very much micromanaged from the top by their godking who happens to be a kid possessed by their hero unit.

 

[Bickendan]

I'm fine with this being left as is: Elohim Kuriotate cities being +2 instead of +3.

On another, hilarious note: One of my vassals built the Mecurian Gate and summoned the Mecurians... who auto-became another vassal of mine, instead forming a Team with their summoner or with the vassal master.
That leads to an interesting question: If the Infernals get summoned in (they haven't yet), can they petition vassalage or forced into capitulation if the Mercurians are already vassals?

I know vassaled Infernals will be forced out of vassalage and into war if the vassal master builds the gate and brings in the Mercurians as a Team.


Revolutions: I'm noting that cities built far from the capitol(s) are set at 25% Revolution Sentiment; captured cities are set at 33%. This is extremely punishing before later civics are available or the economy is strong enough to dole out bribes, as captured cities will end up rebelling then revolting before any buildings that can marginally help with stability (monument being the cheapest) can even be built. And while I'm currently playing on Marathon, even on Quick the revolution counter's going to mount faster than can effectively be reacted to.
I'll also note that playing an evil civ is far more likely to run into problems, as they don't necessarilly have the impetus to be using civics to prevent revolutions -- why would an evil civ not want Slavery, for example?
I'm not certain adjusting rates for the Revolution counter is needed yet, but the initial 25%/33% base may be worth lowering. It'll lower silliness like in the screenshot.

 

[King Bulrush]

I'm fine with this being left as is: Elohim Kuriotate cities being +2 instead of +3.

On another, hilarious note: One of my vassals built the Mecurian Gate and summoned the Mecurians... who auto-became another vassal of mine, instead forming a Team with their summoner or with the vassal master.
That leads to an interesting question: If the Infernals get summoned in (they haven't yet), can they petition vassalage or forced into capitulation if the Mercurians are already vassals?

I know vassaled Infernals will be forced out of vassalage and into war if the vassal master builds the gate and brings in the Mercurians as a Team.

I had a similar situation recently and my experience is that you can have both Mercurians and Infernals as vassals at the same time. The exact situation was the following: I had aquired a peacetime vassal and they summoned the Mercurians, which also became my vassals (although they also did form a team with their summonner). The Infernals were also in the game and a bit later I attacked them and forced a capitulation, so I had both civs as vassals with no problems. And yes, the Infernals did have the AshenVeil religion.
The only caveat was that the game was already over at that point (Because my vassals went on and won an altar victory right under my nose while I was not paying attention ). The only reason I was sitll playing is that I had already gone to a lot of trouble creating a large army and fleet for the invasion of Infernal lands, so I decided to continue the game for a few more turns, so I could play with all my new toys before starting a new game. I don't know if this had any influence on the behaviour of the AI civs.

 

[Bickendan]

Elohim: Building a city with a Settler from a captured city currently gives the new city 100% Elohim nationality.
Like the captured Kuriotate city +3 discussion above, this could overpower the Tolerant trait, but I can see merit new cities have mixed nationality (random % - can be challenging with Revolutions on) and/or founding a city with the Settler's nationality so that it can produce its units/buildings (ie, Warrens for Clan).

 

[lfgr]

I think the tolerant trait is fine as it is with respect to Kuriotate sprawling cities.

I had a similar situation recently and my experience is that you can have both Mercurians and Infernals as vassals at the same time. The exact situation was the following: I had aquired a peacetime vassal and they summoned the Mercurians, which also became my vassals (although they also did form a team with their summonner). The Infernals were also in the game and a bit later I attacked them and forced a capitulation, so I had both civs as vassals with no problems. And yes, the Infernals did have the AshenVeil religion.

I made a note to try and prevent this sort of thing.

Revolutions: I'm noting that cities built far from the capitol(s) are set at 25% Revolution Sentiment; captured cities are set at 33%. This is extremely punishing before later civics are available or the economy is strong enough to dole out bribes, as captured cities will end up rebelling then revolting before any buildings that can marginally help with stability (monument being the cheapest) can even be built. And while I'm currently playing on Marathon, even on Quick the revolution counter's going to mount faster than can effectively be reacted to

Could you specify what exactly you mean with "Revolution Sentiment"? I don't recall ever seeing a percentage value anywhere. But I confess I don't fully understand all the revolutions mechanics (I wonder if anybody still on cf does...).

I'll also note that playing an evil civ is far more likely to run into problems, as they don't necessarilly have the impetus to be using civics to prevent revolutions -- why would an evil civ not want Slavery, for example?
I'm not certain adjusting rates for the Revolution counter is needed yet, but the initial 25%/33% base may be worth lowering. It'll lower silliness like in the screenshot.

Yeah, revolutions currently are unbalanced. I'm currently (again) working on untangling the stability code, so it can be displayed more transparently, and is easier to modify by me (and, well, so I actually understand it). When(/if) that is done, I plan to do some rebalancing, but I will post here beforehand so that people can comment on my ideas and contribute their own.
That said, could you maybe post a savegame of that or a similar game with revolutions on? It usually doesn't get that bad for me, probably because I usually play on smallish maps.

 

[lfgr]

Elohim: Building a city with a Settler from a captured city currently gives the new city 100% Elohim nationality.
Like the captured Kuriotate city +3 discussion above, this could overpower the Tolerant trait, but I can see merit new cities have mixed nationality (random % - can be challenging with Revolutions on) and/or founding a city with the Settler's nationality so that it can produce its units/buildings (ie, Warrens for Clan).

The tolerant trait is not base on nationality at all, but rather on the original founder of the city. Still, what you propose sounds nice, I'll consider it. A similar thing could work for grigori diversity, i.e., a city founded with an orc settler could be more likely to produce orc units.

 

[Bickendan]

Could you specify what exactly you mean with "Revolution Sentiment"? I don't recall ever seeing a percentage value anywhere. But I confess I don't fully understand all the revolutions mechanics (I wonder if anybody still on cf does...).

Percentages are visual estimations from looking at the Revolt Status bar in the City Screen (above the Nationality and Culture bars). I'm planning on starting a game and using World Editor to add a bunch of cities to see how distance affects initial %.

Yeah, revolutions currently are unbalanced. I'm currently (again) working on untangling the stability code, so it can be displayed more transparently, and is easier to modify by me (and, well, so I actually understand it). When(/if) that is done, I plan to do some rebalancing, but I will post here beforehand so that people can comment on my ideas and contribute their own.
That said, could you maybe post a savegame of that or a similar game with revolutions on? It usually doesn't get that bad for me, probably because I usually play on smallish maps.

From the attached save game: Note cities Einion Hold (which gained 90+% Sheaim nationality on founding by Elohim -- used to be in a Sheaim sphere of influence before the AI razed a city in the area, I believe; Ring of Scion (different continent no foreign culture); Heimseter (captured Doviello); Deluoc (captured Doviello); Achill (distance); Shazak (captured Clan); Inishmann (Illian culture, founded well after Illians ejected from game); Sapientia (same as Inishmann); Ithralia (captured Luchuirp); Drax Tallen (distance); Glulynn (distance); Urslo (captured Doviello); Suderholm (distance - see Ring of Scion); Dis (captured Infernal); Kuldevind (distance); Olricstaad (distance - see Ring of Scion); Tia'minar (Elohim founded within former Doviello culture); Hyll (Ljosafar captured from Acheron); Ventry ('distance'); Solium (distance); Ahepetr (captured Lanun); Maron (distance); Miro (distance). Currently, the main AI city having issues is Enoreth (in the former Illian/Doviello zone), as a rebellion against the Mercurians popped Illians back into play.

Main thrust has been building stablizing buildings (Monument > Market > Elder Council > Archery Range > Courthouse > Dungeon > Chancel) before even thinking about building units.

 

[lfgr]

Percentages are visual estimations from looking at the Revolt Status bar in the City Screen (above the Nationality and Culture bars). I'm planning on starting a game and using World Editor to add a bunch of cities to see how distance affects initial %.

Okay, I looked at the code and it says the following:

• 40% of "always violent threshold" for newly founded barbarian cities (affects new RevIdx after conquering, see below)
• 35% of "instigate revolution threshold" for newly founded cities on a different continent then the capital
• 25% of "instigate revolution threshold" for newly founded cities on the same continent

The "instigate revolution threshold" is the full bar in the city screen, and 1000 by default (can be changed in debug BUG options, but this seems to not affect all parts of the code, so don't do it).

When a city is acquired, it gets more complicated (see updateRevolutionIndices in RevEvents). Basic RevIdx is 400 (i.e., 40%). Then, depending on how you got the city:

• Conquest: Add one forth of the current revolution index (of the previous owner), but don't increase to more than 600. So 400-600.
  
• Trading: Add one third of the current revolution index, up to 650. So 400-650.
  
• Otherwise (cultural conversion): Reduce by a flat 100. So 300.

Then, reduce it based on the culture you have in the city, up to 75 when conquering, 50 when trading, 25 otherwise. If you are a rebel, you get another -200 bonus. Otherwise, if you are the original owner of the city, another -100.

So, in conclusion:

• 25% for newly founded cities on your home continent
• 35% for newly founded cities on another continent
• 40-60% for conquered cities without any culture from you or previous ownership

I will reduce those values for the next version, maybe 15%-15%-20%, let's see if this helps a little for now. I don't like the distinction between home and foreign continent. It think they had this in the original Revolutions mod to get American-Style colony revolutions, something that is not specifically desired in FfH.

By the way, you can see the exact RevIdx of a city by hovering the mouse over the city name bar on the main map. I think you also should be able to see more numbers in the revolution status tooltip if you enable "CheatCode = chipotle" in your CivilizationIV.ini.

 

[Rodge]

Should Workshops be buildable on any flat terrain? Or only terrain that has the one food available to penalise? (ie, not snow?)

As Illians, Snow tiles are (mostly) treated like Grasslands. Workshops continue to work, if one is built (on grass/plains/tundra) and the tile is, later, converted to snow (via Temple of the Hand).
However, it does not seem to be possible to build workshops on natural/converted flat snow tiles.

Is this intended?

 

[lfgr]

This will be fixed in the next version.

 

[Deaf Metal]

Despite there being options for # of cities and power ratio to display on the scoreboard, they do not display even when the information is accessible to the player.
Is there a way to disincentivize the AI from building near Pristin Pass? I recently had a game in which the Lanun built its capital on an adjacent tile.
The loading screen tooltip which mentions it still refers to it as "Pristinus Pass".
In the sevopedia entry for Angel Unit, Angel Race links to Angel Unit instead of Angel Race.
A similar problem is present for all Lizardman Units.

 

[lfgr]

Despite there being options for # of cities and power ratio to display on the scoreboard, they do not display even when the information is accessible to the player.

The loading screen tooltip which mentions it still refers to it as "Pristinus Pass".

This will be fixed in the next version.

Is there a way to disincentivize the AI from building near Pristin Pass? I recently had a game in which the Lanun built its capital on an adjacent tile.

I put this on my TODO list, could be hard to do. In any case the Gargoyles shouldn't be able to attack cities.

In the sevopedia entry for Angel Unit, Angel Race links to Angel Unit instead of Angel Race.
A similar problem is present for all Lizardman Units.

This is a known problem that I can't fix currently.

 

[omegaflames]

I've always thought that Pristine pass shouldn't spawn close enough to a civ's starting area for the ai or human to want to build a capital that close to it. Then again I've never tested whether or not the gargoyles can destroy a city either.

For Lizardman race you could rename the display name for the race from Lizardman to Lizardmen, that would be enough to fix them. How best to do that with the Angels I'm not sure.

@Deaf Metal If you really want to challenge your civlopedia skills, find the entry for the dark elf race

 

[lfgr]

New release: mnai-2.9u.
Should be compatible with the 2.9-beta3u savegames.

Download setup
Download archive

Highlights of this release:

• The Customizable Domestic Advisor (CDA) now works properly. You can activate it in the BUG options (you need to restart civ to actually activate it). The CDA allows arranging columns and saving and loading settings. The (now functional) tooltips should explain its usage.
• If the Revolution gameoption is activated, the new "Revolution" page of the CDA that shows the stability modifiers in each of your cities. There is much more detail available here than in the old Revolution advisor. Please note that this is WIP and not very polished yet. The revolution tooltip in the city screen and the old Revolution Advisor are largely unchanged, but I plan to replace both in the long run.
• I also simplified many of the stability effect calculations. I tried to restrict myself to simplifications that are necessary to (even roughly) explain the effects in a tooltip, and other things that I considered no-brainers. Please see the changelog for more details. I tried to keep balance largely the same, and, in doubt, tried to err on the side of caution (so, if anything, keeping cities stable could be slightly easier now). I do plan to rework the Revolutions component further, and I will make a separate post soon where you can read and comment on my ideas.
• I made three gameplay changes: Illians can now build workshops on snow; the Clairone (Harpy) event has it's frequency reduced considerably; and the inquisition spell no longer removes wonders (but still removes temples).
• I implemented several small UI improvements, notably, the civ pedia pages now show more information such as unique spells and civics.
• Finally, I fixed several AI bugs and rewrote AI terraforming. You also should be able to automate your terraformers now.

For a full changelog, see the file mnai_changelog.md included in the download or here.

Thanks everybody for bug reports, discussion and contributions.

 

[Calavente]

thanks !

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I'm having an issue installing both this and Extra ModMod. The installer for both point towards a Steam installation I don't have (I bought the boxed game many moons ago), and the archive, once installed, gets stuck on the intro movie splash screen and the game crashes as soon as I press any button.

My version of Fall from Heaven is 0.41 with patch o.

 

[lfgr]

Is your mod folder called "More Naval AI"? I assume FfH 0.41o does run fine?