[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Ploeperpengel]

Yepyep. Use that fancy art your creating. I like peeing swords.

That's Kael's work just made the requested button for him of it. You'll see it in phase3 of FFH So please give the credits to him for that wonderful peace of art!

 

[chocmushroom]

The biggest problem is that the AI civs are using Warriors as city defense WAY too late in the game. It is very common for me to have taken out >6 cities with a couple of non-rushed Axemen because the AI has nothing but Warriors defending. The fix I propose is to make Archer's much easier to get. I would replace Militia with Archery. Once the AI gets Archers they become far harder to take. They can also defend themselves much better against Barbs. As it is, I almost never have Archers until I have Axemen and a religion special, and that doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd take the old Archery tech slot and add in Blacksmithing. A dead end that allows construction of Barracks (now called Blacksmiths) and its units. That way you can get Bronze Working to find copper and cut down forests, but not also give the military advantage without having gotten Warfare. And if you don't have Copper you don't have to get the tech.

The way I see it, it does seem historicaly true to have people able to put a bit of copper on a bit of wood & bash peoples heads in, rather than on a small bit of wood then another shaped bit to shoot with. So I agree that achers should come after axeman.
What is needed is a basic defender unit that does not require any other building.
Perfect solution, A Slinger.
We know it's a very basic weapon, easy to use and very easy to make.
With a linger you can keep achery along same line as barracks, just have a axtra tech, or incorporate it into an early tech.
Make a slinger the same strength as a warrior, but it has a basic +xx% to city defence... or even +xx% to defending
(sorry if this has been mentioned, i've only read about 100 pages, this thread is TOO LONG)
But, GREAT MOD, Thanks

 

[CurtisC]

So far I've seen some recent recomendations for a stone man or an slinger. Personally I like the idea of a stonechucker, avail w/ stone who would throw stones on invading troops. I would make them cheap, like 25 shields, and with only 1 str, but give them +50% city defense and +100% city defense with walls. But really I don't think it would serve much purpose when you are trying to prevent your improvements from being annihilated during a Barb rush.

A much cooler unit, and one that fits better with the 'dark fantasy' theme of this mod would be a bone shaman, avail with animal husbandry, ancient chants (or maybe mysticism), a smokehouse, and an animal food source. make them expensive, like as much as a dwarf, and str 3, but no other benefits, except that they would be upgradable to a mage later? (if they could gain exp that might really unbalance the mod, and thus be a really bad idea).

Also, and this would have to be phase 2, but maybe you could make volcanoes? which could provide obsidian for early obsidian based weaponry. I'm thinking obsidian knife bearers (would totally have to change the name to make it sound cool) which would have normal warrior stats, but a +100% v.s. demonic (totally stolen from george r.r. martin's game of thrones series)? This could make up for those agonizing early wars v.s. OO civs where you watch level 6 axeman after level 6 axeman get cut down by level 2 drown, because you never bought them the demonic upgrade when the barbs were trashing your empire?

 

[chocmushroom]

So far I've seen some recent recomendations for a stone man or an slinger. Personally I like the idea of a stonechucker, avail w/ stone who would throw stones on invading troops. I would make them cheap, like 25 shields, and with only 1 str, but give them +50% city defense and +100% city defense with walls. But really I don't think it would serve much purpose when you are trying to prevent your improvements from being annihilated during a Barb rush.

HHhmmm, well, you can use slings with anything like pebbles, but with worked stone they become a military viability with the sling-stone. I think a slinger would do the job of a stonechucker if you made them cost 25 shields more than a warroir, with the same stats as warrior, but with a new ability, lets call it Stone-use. This give the ability to defend city's with rock-chuckers (+75% city defence), and the ability to use sling to defend workers and improvements (+50% defence).
It would mean that there is no over-power of a unit, but it would be a good & cheap unit for early game time. when bronze working comes along, the warriors with their weapons and armour would still be more powerful, but would still find it hard to attack them.

 

[CurtisC]

I guess we're talking about two different things, I was talking about the AI doing something to provide more city defense when I come after it with axemen at 100 yrs or so, and I think you are talking about a cheap anti-barb unit. Err maybe not, maybe it is the same idea.

 

[Oran-ge]

Hello, I've a really hard time getting experience points for my summoners and conjurers, I know this is intentional, but are you guys planning anything in 1.0 or phase 2 that would allow spellcasters to gain experience points faster?

Also, when my demon summoner's not doing anything, I usually just summon demons for kicks and use it to scout and things. But I don't think that's really how Demons are suppose to be used. So consider the following proposal: make Summon Demon promotion -10% strength, and beef up the demon and summoners slightly, that way the Demon Summoner gets weaker and weaker for each Demon he summons (what with the blood sacraficing and such). Thus, players won't Summon Demons lightly, and will try even more to shelter the Summoner. Plus, if the Summoner gets beefed up a bit they can gain experience points faster.

 

[Kael]

Hello, I've a really hard time getting experience points for my summoners and conjurers, I know this is intentional, but are you guys planning anything in 1.0 or phase 2 that would allow spellcasters to gain experience points faster?

Also, when my demon summoner's not doing anything, I usually just summon demons for kicks and use it to scout and things. But I don't think that's really how Demons are suppose to be used. So consider the following proposal: make Summon Demon promotion -10% strength, and beef up the demon and summoners slightly, that way the Demon Summoner gets weaker and weaker for each Demon he summons (what with the blood sacraficing and such). Thus, players won't Summon Demons lightly, and will try even more to shelter the Summoner. Plus, if the Summoner gets beefed up a bit they can gain experience points faster.

Spellcasters don't level in phase 1, just because i hijacked the level/promotion system to use it for spells since the vanilla game didn't have a "spell system" of its own.

We couldn't assign "negative effects" to the spells in phase 1 because the AI doesn't understand them. In the situation you describe the AI would kill its own summoners while recasting demons for no good reason and not understand why.

Talchas has written an entirely new spell system for Phase 2 from the ground up. I went through and deleted every piece of spell code I had last weekend and started converting them. Its way to early to go into specifics, but mages that level and pick new spells and abilities when they level is one of the top features for phase 2.

 

[SteamPower]

I have run the download which installed in the standard Program Files Civ 4 directory. I cannot see it as a Scenario choice however.

I installed Ancient Med into my My Documents\My Games\Civ4. That appears as a Scenario choice. I tried installing Fall from Heaven into there but still no joy.

Any ideas?

Thankyou for such quick help looks really great

 

[Lunargent]

The way I see it, it does seem historicaly true to have people able to put a bit of copper on a bit of wood & bash peoples heads in, rather than on a small bit of wood then another shaped bit to shoot with. So I agree that achers should come after axeman.
What is needed is a basic defender unit that does not require any other building.
Perfect solution, A Slinger.
We know it's a very basic weapon, easy to use and very easy to make.
With a linger you can keep achery along same line as barracks, just have a axtra tech, or incorporate it into an early tech.
Make a slinger the same strength as a warrior, but it has a basic +xx% to city defence... or even +xx% to defending
(sorry if this has been mentioned, i've only read about 100 pages, this thread is TOO LONG)
But, GREAT MOD, Thanks

Well, historically, archers came along long, long before anyone figured out how to make copper ore into anything. They would be a starting tech if they weren't strength 3. It's more a balance decision than a realism thing. A slinger sounds like a cool unit, (those Iberian slingers in TAM kick arse! ), but I dunno if we are going to have any more units. I'd love to have a teir one slinger unit available with tracking, upgradable with masonry. Tracking definately needs something more, as it's the weakest starting tech by far. Maybe I'll pencil it in there

And on the subject of the AI needing a warrior improvement, in my latest game, a barbarian hunter wiped out an AI city right in front of me. Saved me the trouble of invading I guess.

 

[Lunargent]

I have run the download which installed in the standard Program Files Civ 4 directory. I cannot see it as a Scenario choice however.

I installed Ancient Med into my My Documents\My Games\Civ4. That appears as a Scenario choice. I tried installing Fall from Heaven into there but still no joy.

Any ideas?

That's because it's not a scenario.

Got to Advanced-> Load a mod, and it should be there. You'll have to restart the game.

 

[AljayBoy]

I have run the download which installed in the standard Program Files Civ 4 directory. I cannot see it as a Scenario choice however.

I installed Ancient Med into my My Documents\My Games\Civ4. That appears as a Scenario choice. I tried installing Fall from Heaven into there but still no joy.

Any ideas?

Its not in the scenario directory it should be in the Mods folder, so when you load civ4 click advanced, load a mod, and then FfH should be there, select that and then it will ask you to restart the game, which you do, and then thats you sorted. Don't install Mods in the my games folder, best bet is my comp; programs; firaxis etc.

 

[Lunargent]

double post.

 

[CurtisC]

I've beat a few games on emperor now, generally on either large ice-age maps or large highlands w/ raging barbs and I have a few comments/suggestions:

1) adding the sustained animals is awesome, thanks a lot.

2) I know you've been talking about adding a space-ship victory of some sort to ffh, this could be neat. As it is, I think more infinite tech options would be nice. I know that normally I just stop tech research after my fifth or sixth future tech.

Instead of just allowing future tech maybe you could have golem mastery be an infinte tech, with each level increasing the movement/strength/city attack of the civ's golems (or just one level increasing one attribute (or even a whole seperate endgame tech tree only available after golem mastery, craftmanship, and armageddon))? Kind of like a universal aggressive leader trait only applied to golems?

These would have to be hugely expensive to research, but they wopuld certainly alter any end game

3) The Meshabber of Dys can initiate war by walking up to any civs border (I haven't tested this w/ open borders) that has units within range of Meshabber's fire aura. Combined with defensive pacts this can really be abused. Just wanted to make sure you knew.

4)Maybe the Mithril golem and meshabber could destroy any land improvements that they walk over? This seems reasonable, and kind of keeps better with the double edged sword feel of the other armageddon enabled thingys. Meshabber could even cause radiation (fallout) damage.

OK that's all, if these aren't helpful let me know and I'll stop making suggestions. Cheers!

 

[Lunargent]

We have 21 different replacements for future tech in store, actually. Each will be tied to a type of mana, give some related benefit, be high up the tech tree, and be repeatable . Water mana might give +1 navigation each time it is researched, for example.

The general problem with double edged swords is that the AI never uses them right. So an AI that created the Mithril Golem would probably destroy it's own lands, even in peace time. You could abuse this by attacking their city that is the farthest from the unit, and laugh as the AI goes about wrecking its own lands in an effort to get it to you.

 

[CurtisC]

We have 21 different replacements for future tech in store, actually. Each will be tied to a type of mana, give some related benefit, be high up the tech tree, and be repeatable . Water mana might give +1 navigation each time it is researched, for example.

This sounds awesome, and also answers all of my questions about why water units have such awful mobility.

The general problem with double edged swords is that the AI never uses them right. So an AI that created the Mithril Golem would probably destroy it's own lands, even in peace time. You could abuse this by attacking their city that is the farthest from the unit, and laugh as the AI goes about wrecking its own lands in an effort to get it to you.

Yeah, well, I haven't seen an AI ever produce one of these units. I'd play on diety or immortal, but I'm not good enough to beat off the barbarians.

 

[Maarak]

I can confrim Using Meshabber of Dis to start wars. This would make sense and stay balanced if not for the fact that it doesn't count as you declaring war, but the damage from Meshabber's fire aura causes the other civ to declare war on you. This makes it incredibly useful for avoiding defensive pacts.

Speaking of the fire aura, can it be made a litte smaller in terms of animation? Whenever I use the unit, the fire aura obscures most of the map around it. Also for those of use with slower computers, the large and detailed animation can slow down the game significantly.

 

[Yakk]

Is there going to be a merfolk civilization at the end of development?

I'm seeing how water-tied I can make units.

Can I make units that can only travel in water, or in land squares adjacent to water?

This would be useful for a hypothetical merfolk civilization ("true" merfolk units could be restricted this way), and also for the "drown" unit.

Some aside notes:
1> In this game, +raw culture is harder to get from buildings, while +% culture is easier, than in the standard game.

2> The archmagus is seriously overpowered. Moreso than any other pre-armagheddon unit in the game.

3 archmagi tossing out meteor storms can melt any stack in any city in the game. The mix of the huge collateral damage with the "throw away"ness of the unit lets you weaken any stack down to 40% of it's original power. Then the rest of your units can have a field day.

If you restricted him to be a national unit with a max of 1, he'd be more reasonable.

3> Low-end buildings become obsolete eventually. Barracks, for example. Maybe you could toss a +1 XP to (unit type) on the base buildings? This would help out the AI (who probably is less choosy about buliding these buildings).

Barracks: +1 Melee unit XP
Hunting Lodge: +1 Recon unit XP (this needs this least)
Archery Range: +1 Archery unit XP
Harbor: +1 Naval unit XP
etc

4> Many of the high-end specialist buildings are much more boring than the low end ones. Compare "the grove" to "the hunting lodge".

Maybe if you tossed another +1 XP to the high end pre-requisit buildings, plus some minor benefit? (ie: Grove: +2 food)

5> I really like your +X gold / +X flask buildings / etc. Interesting and different. (be wary it doesn't encourage too much city-spam...)

6> I disagree with the "anti-elven religion" comments. A follower of the elven religions can get simply insane production, very quickly, with lumbermill city spam. Chop down a small amount of forests (3 or 4 squares) to make some farms and build your grainery/storehouse, tell the AI to emphasize food, and your city very rapidly grows. Your health/happiness isn't a problem. Lumbermill spam the area, and the city production shoots up.

The big flaw is the lack of commerce this generates. However, spreading the dwarven religion in parallel, and building dwarf temples+markets+court houses keeps your economy afloat with any number of such production-farms.

I'll note that this seems wrong somehow. The elven relilgion is best for a high-production strategy, while the dwarven religion provides the economic funding? I'd expect the dwarves to be high-production and the elves to be high-research. And the lumbermill spam seems ... off for elves.

Great mod. =)

 

[Lunargent]

This sounds awesome, and also answers all of my questions about why water units have such awful mobility.

I think they still need to be faster to start with, personally. No way should a land unit outpace a ship until railroads. This is a problem in vanilla civ too. Until the railroad was completed in 1867, it was almost faster to sail all the way around the tip of South America than it was to travel by land across the continent. I'm clueless as to why they made ships so slow.

Yeah, well, I haven't seen an AI ever produce one of these units. I'd play on diety or immortal, but I'm not good enough to beat off the barbarians.

I've never seen them make them either, but you have to consider that eventually they will when the weights get adjusted. Usually they either hurt themselves with apocalypse or blight. But that won't always be the case.

 

[Kael]

Is there going to be a merfolk civilization at the end of development?

No, the Lanun are the pirates of the world but they are human.

I'm seeing how water-tied I can make units.

Can I make units that can only travel in water, or in land squares adjacent to water?

Yes, in 1.0 the Drown, Fireballs and Meteors all travel on land and sea. The Drown are exactly as you describe, able to travel on the land and coast tiles but not enter the ocean tiles.

This would be useful for a hypothetical merfolk civilization ("true" merfolk units could be restricted this way), and also for the "drown" unit.

Some aside notes:
1> In this game, +raw culture is harder to get from buildings, while +% culture is easier, than in the standard game.

2> The archmagus is seriously overpowered. Moreso than any other pre-armagheddon unit in the game.

3 archmagi tossing out meteor storms can melt any stack in any city in the game. The mix of the huge collateral damage with the "throw away"ness of the unit lets you weaken any stack down to 40% of it's original power. Then the rest of your units can have a field day.

If you restricted him to be a national unit with a max of 1, he'd be more reasonable.

The whole spell system in changing in phase 2, I'll check into tweaking this down slightly for 1.0 though.

3> Low-end buildings become obsolete eventually. Barracks, for example. Maybe you could toss a +1 XP to (unit type) on the base buildings? This would help out the AI (who probably is less choosy about buliding these buildings).

The ai hates the unit enabling buildings (it doesn't cost in the fact that they allow it to build units) and has to be pushed to build them, although it could be more efficient with its builds but i dont think it overbuilds to badly.

4> Many of the high-end specialist buildings are much more boring than the low end ones. Compare "the grove" to "the hunting lodge".

Maybe if you tossed another +1 XP to the high end pre-requisit buildings, plus some minor benefit? (ie: Grove: +2 food)

I dont like just tossing bonuses but I do agree with you that the t4 buildings are to bland. The reason for this is that the t4 buildings weren't in the origional design doc. The plan was to units to have to get to a certain level before they could get promoted to t4 units. When I wasn't able to do that I added the t4 buildings, so they tend to be kinda bland. I will review that for phase 2.

5> I really like your +X gold / +X flask buildings / etc. Interesting and different. (be wary it doesn't encourage too much city-spam...)

6> I disagree with the "anti-elven religion" comments. A follower of the elven religions can get simply insane production, very quickly, with lumbermill city spam. Chop down a small amount of forests (3 or 4 squares) to make some farms and build your grainery/storehouse, tell the AI to emphasize food, and your city very rapidly grows. Your health/happiness isn't a problem. Lumbermill spam the area, and the city production shoots up.

The big flaw is the lack of commerce this generates. However, spreading the dwarven religion in parallel, and building dwarf temples+markets+court houses keeps your economy afloat with any number of such production-farms.

I'll note that this seems wrong somehow. The elven relilgion is best for a high-production strategy, while the dwarven religion provides the economic funding? I'd expect the dwarves to be high-production and the elves to be high-research. And the lumbermill spam seems ... off for elves.

Great mod. =)

The "true elves" that are introduced in phase 2 wont be able to chop forests or jungles. The "elven" and "dwarven" aspects that we have now aren't racial, they are just a nature worshipping and an earth worshipping religion. In phase 2 you will have true racial civs that have more distinctive flavors.

 

[darkedone02]

when will you release a patch or the next version? I think it's time that you finished your currect thing and place in the new version.