[MOD] Fall from Heaven

Samuelson said:
Hey Kael, Chalid, Corlindale, C.Roland, Loki1232, Lunargent, Talchas, Wilboman and Woodelf.

What game settings would you guys reccomend? (such as game speed)

Also, I think one of you guys mentioned a hell map that you were working on that would open up midgame. Are you still doing this idea?

Keep in mind that the design team has been playing phase 2 for almost 2 months now so we may not be a good judge of what is best in 1.00.

Personally I play a variety of maps, Prince difficulty, normal barbarians, Aggressive AI, Normal game speed and a few civs less than the map normally allows to create more wilderness.

The Hell map as the others mentioned is scheduled for the next major release ("Fire"). Right now we are preping to release the "Light" beta. Check out the 7th post in this thread for all the details.
 
First of all, I love your mod. It's all I ever play anymore. The religion-specific buildings and units are pure genius, as are the magic units.

That said, I have some criticisms.

1.) Too god damn many different buildings. Seriously. Not that I dislike the variety, but it's a lot of trouble to keep track of which city can make archers, which city has the barracks, etc etc. This confusion just gets worse in the later game. I always try to have all my cities build all available buildings, but that is just impossible in FFH.

I like the religion and race-specific aspects of the game, perhaps the game can be simplified by (for example) making the hunters lodge elf-only. You could likewise restrict the mages to certain races/religions, etc etc. Seriously, one player can only make use of about a third of the buildings that are available.


2.) Too hard to get established in the early game.
I find myself with my cities garrisonned with warriors far far longer than is safe to do so. The problem again is that I have to discover archery, build an archery range, and then distribute archers to all my cities. Once I get all that accomplished Grog the flaming barbarian king has taken half my cities.


3.) Subdue animal:
Awesome. At this point in the game however there are usually no animals to subdue.

4.) Worker sniping barbarian scouts:
Gay.

5.) Heroes that accrue experience while sitting on their asses:
Confusing, but ok.

6.) Reagents:
If they're going to play such a huge role in the game, they should be a bit more plentiful I think. More fantastical resources that do interesting things would be quite cool also.

That's all! Hope that was constructive.
 
Hangly Man said:
4.) Worker sniping barbarian scouts:
Gay.

5.) Heroes that accrue experience while sitting on their asses:
Confusing, but ok.

6.) Reagents:
If they're going to play such a huge role in the game, they should be a bit more plentiful I think. More fantastical resources that do interesting things would be quite cool also.

That's all! Hope that was constructive.

4)agreed, god i hate those scouts, they waste a worker without you ever seeing them coming, and sending a warrior around to keep him safe is tedious micromanagement
5)it doesnt bother me, it's better than any other way to implement this. if it makes you feel better imagine them doing quests in your city or something. ( killing rats in the sewers, a la morrowind)
6)one again, agreed, i'd rather have them be a little too plentiful than not enough. i hate missing out on such an important game mechanic
 
also, is it possible to play this multiplayer? specifically the 'internet games' option, as this is the only thing my friend and i have been sable to get to work for us.
when we tried before neither of us could see any games in the list, even as the other was sitting in the staging room.
grar...
 
Hangly Man said:
First of all, I love your mod. It's all I ever play anymore. The religion-specific buildings and units are pure genius, as are the magic units.

That said, I have some criticisms.

1.) Too god damn many different buildings. Seriously. Not that I dislike the variety, but it's a lot of trouble to keep track of which city can make archers, which city has the barracks, etc etc. This confusion just gets worse in the later game. I always try to have all my cities build all available buildings, but that is just impossible in FFH.

Its intended to be impossible, you will need to specialize your cities. I am working on cutting late game buildings (wizards tower, cathedral and the summoning chamber are currently on the chopping block) in FfH2. A few buildings were cut in the last few betas of FfH1, but where it is at is as thin as I was able to get it.

I like the religion and race-specific aspects of the game, perhaps the game can be simplified by (for example) making the hunters lodge elf-only. You could likewise restrict the mages to certain races/religions, etc etc. Seriously, one player can only make use of about a third of the buildings that are available.

That is what we are doing in FfH2. For example the Doviello cant build barracks, libraries, archery ranges, alchemy labs, bowyers, machinists shop or monasterys. In some cases this will keep them from making certain units (they can make monks for example) but in other they can build the units without the buildings. Other civs like the Balseraphs can build a lot of units out of carnivals instead of needing multiple buildings.

The nice thing about making the civs different form each other is we can make civs that people who dont like a ton of options will enjoy, and another civ that people who want tons of choices will love. As long as we keep them balanced it should work out well.

2.) Too hard to get established in the early game.
I find myself with my cities garrisonned with warriors far far longer than is safe to do so. The problem again is that I have to discover archery, build an archery range, and then distribute archers to all my cities. Once I get all that accomplished Grog the flaming barbarian king has taken half my cities.

Thats intentional Orthus is made to hit early enough that players who dont focus on a defense (who economy or religion rush) will be hard pressed to fight him off. Its still possible, and I usually still worthwile, but it is the disadvantage of a non-military starting build. What difficulty level do you play on?

3.) Subdue animal:
Awesome. At this point in the game however there are usually no animals to subdue.

This may be a function of the difficulty you are playing on as well, though I am kinda surprised by this. It tells me your opponents are getting out and grabbing all of the animals first because they never dissapear. You may want to lower the difficulty a little.

4.) Worker sniping barbarian scouts:
Gay.

In FfH2 the barbarians have been replaced by orcs, and the scouts by goblins that can only move 1. So this won't occur any longer in the next version but I probably won't change it in 1.0.

5.) Heroes that accrue experience while sitting on their asses:
Confusing, but ok.

Its not the best system, but we have been unable to come up with a better system that the AI will use as effectivly as a human player.

6.) Reagents:
If they're going to play such a huge role in the game, they should be a bit more plentiful I think. More fantastical resources that do interesting things would be quite cool also.

That's all! Hope that was constructive.

Yeah, one of my biggest headaches has been trying to get some resources to be rare by always present. I need a "minimum" number of a bonus that will appear on every map but I havent figured out a way to do it yet. If I figure out a way to do it and its simple I'll look at backporting it to 1.0 too.

As for fantastical resources, there are 16 new resources in FfH2 so you will definitly get that request.
 
Kael said:
[...] The nice thing about making the civs different form each other is we can make civs that people who dont like a ton of options will enjoy, and another civ that people who want tons of choices will love. As long as we keep them balanced it should work out well. [...]

Great. I just wanted to encourage you to not delete too many buildings :) . But this seems to be a nice compromise.
 
Hangly Man said:
6.) Reagents:
If they're going to play such a huge role in the game, they should be a bit more plentiful I think. More fantastical resources that do interesting things would be quite cool also.

Kael said:
Yeah, one of my biggest headaches has been trying to get some resources to be rare by always present. I need a "minimum" number of a bonus that will appear on every map but I havent figured out a way to do it yet. If I figure out a way to do it and its simple I'll look at backporting it to 1.0 too.

Since you implent Mana nodes in Phase 2:
Why not make reagents a really common good thats needed for more things than mages?
For example for laboratories, healers,...
And a nation with more nodes would have better mages (Which is already planned as far as I know).
 
Kael said:
Check out the 7th post in this thread for all the details.
... So I did! And near the end of post #7 I found...
A vampire can pass vampirism on to a living unit in its stack that is level 6 or higher, or level 4 or higher if it is a Moroi.

Nice to see some Romanian mythological creatures in FfH! :D
Unless there's some other mythology that has Moroi...
 
redradish said:
Just a quick heads up for people that read penny arcade. This mod got referenced in todays comic. +1 kudos to the dev team. keep up the good, and justly popular, work. :worship:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic

LMAO!!! GOOD CATCH REDRADISH!!! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS!!! IM ROOTIN' FOR YAH!!! :lol:
 
Mary Mallon (September 23, 1869 – November 11, 1938), also known as Typhoid Mary, was an Irish immigrant who was the first known healthy carrier of typhoid in the United States. She contracted a mild case of typhoid fever but was never cured, so she spread the disease to others. Having no particular job skills she obtained employment in private homes around New York City, eventually obtaining the relatively well-paid position of household cook.

Mary worked as a cook in the New York City area between 1900 and 1907. During this part of her working career she infected 22 people with the disease, one of whom died. Mary was a cook in a house in Mamaroneck, New York, for less than two weeks in the year 1900 when the residents came down with typhoid. She moved to Manhattan in 1901, and members of that family developed fevers and diarrhoea, and the laundress died. She then went to work for a lawyer, until seven of the eight household members developed typhoid. Mary spent months helping to care for the people she made sick, but her care further spread the disease through the household. In 1904, she took a position on Long Island. Within two weeks, four of ten family members were hospitalized with typhoid. She changed employment again, and three more households were infected. Frequently, the disease was transmitted by a dessert of iced peaches, her favorite recipe.

- Wikipedia
 
great mod!!

We played it in multiplayer game.

Some things that we found a bit unbalanced.

The drowned are by far to strong. if your discover the religon and religion spreads fast, you got Units with Str 4 with 2 times Cityattack (trainigyard and civic) -> (Str 4 +80%= 7,2 when attacking Cities!).
It was very easy even at emperor Level to wipeout 3-5 nation and become the strongest Nation.

Dwarfen religion is the nearly the same.

Elven are quite weak. 60% forest Def doesnt bring much when the enemy moves around your Units and in Cities the Bonus dont apply and you need a building fist to produce the Elvenarcher!

Other religons a bit late.

Im not sure, but 3 Gold per dwarfen tempel - isnt that a bit to much ..?

_____

The fantasy 03 Map is very nice. ( :goodjob: )

One last thing, is there a way to get other victory conditions?

on a Huge Map at high difficulty it is booring/imposible to submit the world by coquest or religios victory.

Idea -> what about 3 unique worldwonders for every nation (example: 3 Trees of Nature for the Elves, Chaotic Tempels for Mab, 3 times Blight for Necron and so on). The first nation who builds all 3 of its national-victory buildings wins the game (some sort of Spaceship). :)
 
Bheleu21 said:
great mod!!

We played it in multiplayer game.

Some things that we found a bit unbalanced.

The drowned are by far to strong. if your discover the religon and religion spreads fast, you got Units with Str 4 with 2 times Cityattack (trainigyard and civic) -> (Str 4 +80%= 7,2 when attacking Cities!).
It was very easy even at emperor Level to wipeout 3-5 nation and become the strongest Nation.

The game is at the moment a bit easier than vanilla CIV. The two main reasons therfor are that the AI does not use its Magic users very well, and that it does not grasp the concept of building requirements for units. We hope to overcome both problems in a later release of phase two (certainly not at the first releases). Until then we recommend to play one or two difficulty levels higher than vanilla civ.

One last thing, is there a way to get other victory conditions?

on a Huge Map at high difficulty it is booring/imposible to submit the world by coquest or religios victory.

Idea -> what about 3 unique worldwonders for every nation (example: 3 Trees of Nature for the Elves, Chaotic Tempels for Mab, 3 times Blight for Necron and so on). The first nation who builds all 3 of its national-victory buildings wins the game (some sort of Spaceship). :)

We have been discussing this for a while within the design team but have not yet come to an conclusion. The idea to implement one or two builder type victories is well accepted but we do not yet know how we will implement them, as we do not want simply to reproduce the vanilla spaceship.
 
Kael said:
Speaking from a purely game design perspective, if I did want to include a civ that had a "home terrain" that limited the mobility of other civs I would probably go for some extended ice or lava tiles and a civ it supported before I made a water civ. I know from a flavor perspective water makes more sense but I don't want to change the seas current purpose.

More civs with home terrain, eg playing as frost giants on ice, would be great. :goodjob: Civs having a different playstyle due to eg a preference for hills or forest is what makes Fall from Heaven attractive to me.

May I ask though, what is the "different strategic element" of water? As far as I can tell, the only thing the sea adds is that you need to build a couple boats to reach some civs. And build a workboat once in a while. Big deal. The sea in Civ4 is BORING! If water was made more like land regarding the things you could do there, that would be a GOOD thing.

Anyway, just let me assure you as a SMACer where the sea does play a bigger role, that enhancing the aquatic aspect would definitely be an improvement! :)
 
M@ni@c said:
More civs with home terrain, eg playing as frost giants on ice, would be great. :goodjob: Civs having a different playstyle due to eg a preference for hills or forest is what makes Fall from Heaven attractive to me.

May I ask though, what is the "different strategic element" of water? As far as I can tell, the only thing the sea adds is that you need to build a couple boats to reach some civs. And build a workboat once in a while. Big deal. The sea in Civ4 is BORING! If water was made more like land regarding the things you could do there, that would be a GOOD thing.

Anyway, just let me assure you as a SMACer where the sea does play a bigger role, that enhancing the aquatic aspect would definitely be an improvement! :)

It sets the boundries for the early half of the game and introduces strategic choke point and defensive aspects to city placement outside of just the highest yield tiles. Along with coast trading, water resources etc etc.

Basically waters biggest effect is just that it isn't land. The more we make it like land the more we lose that distinction. So I would be hesitant to make many units that treat land and sea equally. Especially settlers since that would remove the "area blocking" aspects of the early games city placement strategy.
 
Hi,
several things I have in mind, I didn't read all the thread so I hope I do not repeat anything already discussed.

- Resurrect heroes, a dead hero is a shame, but in all my fantasy role playing experience, a player could get his hero resurrected in a temple or by a priest in his group.
I think that in the game it should be possible to resurrect any fallen hero if you have the right religion.

- Heroes at sea, also a thing to consider, hero is represent one person unlike other units that represent troops. A Hero on a boat/ship should be able to influance the battle in some menner.

-Catching great person, in regular civ can't be done and it's a shame, I think that great minds can transfer between nations, thus when a city with a "unused" great person is captured he shouldn't be destroyed.

-There are too few sea units currently in the game, but you probably already addressing that.

-I just saw you already answered this topic, so I made it silver...
Too many units avalible to every civ, if I remember correctly it was meant to restrict access to units according to type/origin &/or religion.
It's not common to dwarves to have elve unit with them unlike human units (with human they get along a bit better).

*again I must say, the mod is balanced & fun!
**Can't wait to phase 2 !!!
 
mamimo said:
Hi,
several things I have in mind, I didn't read all the thread so I hope I do not repeat anything already discussed.

- Resurrect heroes, a dead hero is a shame, but in all my fantasy role playing experience, a player could get his hero resurrected in a temple or by a priest in his group.
I think that in the game it should be possible to resurrect any fallen hero if you have the right religion.

Ressurection may be possible at a later date but it will be very difficult. We dont ever want heroes to become disposal, they should be a big advantage to get and a big cost to lose.

Ideas we have considered: A national wonder that ressurects the next hero that dies and is then destoryed. A resurrection spell that allows a high priest that has gone trough all the levels to learn the ability cast and resurrect the unit but he loses the ability to cast the spell.

- Heroes at sea, also a thing to consider, hero is represent one person unlike other units that represent troops. A Hero on a boat/ship should be able to influance the battle in some menner.

Hmm... we havent really considered this outside of a few sea based heroes. This would be good though, I would hate to lose a level 15 hero just because his ship sinks. It makes me thinkt hat at the very least we should allow heros lost like this to wash up on the nearest shore.

-Catching great person, in regular civ can't be done and it's a shame, I think that great minds can transfer between nations, thus when a city with a "unused" great person is captured he shouldn't be destroyed.

I don't agree with this, in my mind a great person tends to be even more loyal to his home emprie than a normal unit so they wouldn't be open to easy conversion.

-There are too few sea units currently in the game, but you probably already addressing that.

They are getting better, we could definitly still use a bit more variety here.
 
Kael said:
Speaking from a purely game design perspective, if I did want to include a civ that had a "home terrain" that limited the mobility of other civs I would probably go for some extended ice or lava tiles and a civ it supported before I made a water civ. I know from a flavor perspective water makes more sense but I don't want to change the seas current purpose. [...] It sets the boundries for the early half of the game and introduces strategic choke point and defensive aspects to city placement outside of just the highest yield tiles. Along with coast trading, water resources etc etc.
If I may suggest, what you could do if you wanted to make an aquatic civ without ruining the strategic aspect of the seas, is you could make a civ that has aquatic settlers instead of normal ones, and can only spread on land (military or settler wise) through the research of a tech, say, "Landfaring".
This civ (or race, as it would be sensible to make more than one civ so that they don't go completely unchallenged) would have a significant territorial advantage, but it's military viability would be pretty limited, making it a good choice for a player who wants to go for a more peacable victory. (religious, political, or scientific)
 
The problem with a civ on water might be conquering this civ. So either all cities would be razed on conquest or all could be able to get cities on the water.

Furthermore there other problems involved (excerpt the design thing, where i am of the same opinion as Kael). For example we all know that the AI is not the best concerning Seawarfare. But Introducing such a civ would need not only need a rewriting of the Seawarefare and the DOMAIN_LAND units to conquer sea cities, but also a rewriting of the entire Team, Player, Area and UnitAIs. This seems not worth the effect at the time beeing as there are many much more interesting - from my point of view - mechanics waiting to be implemented.
 
Kael said:
Ressurection may be possible at a later date but it will be very difficult. We dont ever want heroes to become disposal, they should be a big advantage to get and a big cost to lose.

Ideas we have considered: A national wonder that ressurects the next hero that dies and is then destoryed. A resurrection spell that allows a high priest that has gone trough all the levels to learn the ability cast and resurrect the unit but he loses the ability to cast the spell.
Both are nice ideas, the second is a better fit to fantasy rulls, however level up a priest? I guess you make a spellcasting spheres & spell hierarchy for diffrent level spell casters in the next beta (can't wait).
I wonder how you give XP for spell casters?



Hmm... we havent really considered this outside of a few sea based heroes. This would be good though, I would hate to lose a level 15 hero just because his ship sinks. It makes me thinkt hat at the very least we should allow heros lost like this to wash up on the nearest shore.
That is a very cool idea, reminds me of HOMM



I don't agree with this, in my mind a great person tends to be even more loyal to his home emprie than a normal unit so they wouldn't be open to easy conversion.
mmm... in any world war there was captured work force & scientists that worked for the enemy to spare their lives.


They are getting better, we could definitly still use a bit more variety here.
Any way your work is sacred!
 
Back
Top Bottom