[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Chammadai]

Yeah, I have worked speced on the slavery option. Its supposed to give you a chance to enslave units you beat in combat. Slaves are low performance workers with no upkeep cost that can be sacrificed for production. Once I add that in the civic will be more worthwile.

I will take a look at Social order and see what can be done. But keep in mind, not every religion is good at all things. The Fellowship civic doesn't have to be as good as the Veil civic as long as the Fellowship overall is as good as the Veil overall. Likewise the Veil unit doesnt need to be equal to the Overlords unit, etc.

That's obvious that one religion civic won't be as powerful as another one's... But when someone decides to convert to a religion making the civic a bit better than others in it's category could make it worthwile and someone would actually use them.
I've never used Slavery in your mod as Military State came always pretty soon and I favor Consumprion over Social Order as it gives me more money and makes more cities happy (market + theatre).

And speaking of civics, I have yet to see Free Religion being used - never in your mod has AI adopted it and I wouldn't exchange my religious bonuses for it as well .

 

[Lightzy]

Is there a way really to add offensive terrain bonuses to units?
OK, elven archers defend better in the woods, but shouldn't they also have a bonus to attacking units in woods? or some way to negate the forest defense bonus?

I mean, the way it is they're purely defensive units because they're rather weak and their only advantage is forest defense.




EDIT:

Oh, and, er, I think that spellcaster class units should get ridiculous (+200%, 300%) defense bonuses against fireballs/meteors/summoned units.
Makes sense and adds a gameplay mechanic

As it is, 3 archmages are all you need to completely and utterly defeat an enemy civ (I just rolled over the aztecs and egyptians using 3 archmages defended by 3 bronze golems).
And I noticed that the AI seems to keep mages for defence in some cities (maybe only the capitals, not sure, don't recall), so it can actually work.

 

[pippin_nl]

Yeah, that would allow them to build the special units from their cities like normal civs do. But most of the barbarian units you run into while playing weren't built normally, they are spawned using a special routine. Thats the rountine I don't have access to.

So I could give the barbarians access to a special unit, but you would never really see it. Normally barbarian cities dont last long enough to actuallt produce much.

I have tried playing with a copied warrior and transformed it into an orc. It did not look like an orc but its name was orc warrior. Actually the only thing I did change was remove city defense and add city raider (attack). Thing was the "orc" did show up as a barbarian more often than the warrior for some reason.

 

[loki1232]

I dont know if Im going to have this new area simulate the Underdark, another plane (maybe into the bowels of hell where a computer controlled civ full of demons waits) or just a wild area that is completly baricaded off by mountains or suchs and need to have portals activated to get through it.

Bowels of Hell sounds really cool, but you would need to to be a different terrain type than the rest of the world. What if there was only one was to hell?

On the topic of Orcs instead of Barbarians, can't you just add Orcs in as animals instead of making them barbarians?

Also, whoever said that the slayer promotions need to be upgraded is right. In fact, I think that they should give you a +100 percent bonus.

 

[seamus75]

I'm going out of state for a while so I'm gonna leave you with some nuggets to chew on.

With your planned magic rework - several fields of study and all - I was thinking it should work like the other units. If you want to build an earth mage than you should have to first build a school of earth magic and so on. Each field should have it's own particular school of magic. It would allow civs to not only specialize in magic, but also allow it's cities to specialize in one particular field.

Also, an idea for a coresponding Wonder would be a Magic University which would allow that city to build all fields of magic users. I would think it would have to cost some ridiculous amount since it would create such powerful unti producing abilities.

In the same vein (magic & all) there could be the introduction of a magic related civic, placed somewhere under school system perhaps. Heres my idea:

Name: Etude
Bonuses: increased research rate &/or increased rate of production for magic-users &/or +? experience for magic users
Negatives: decrease in finances (spending to much time studying) &/or decreased rate of production for melee units

Again I offer them in humility - let me know what you think.

Thanks - Seamus

 

[loki1232]

In the same vein (magic & all) there could be the introduction of a magic related civic, placed somewhere under school system perhaps. Heres my idea:

Name: Etude
Bonuses: increased research rate &/or increased rate of production for magic-users &/or +? experience for magic users
Negatives: decrease in finances (spending to much time studying) &/or decreased rate of production for melee units

Yeah I had the same idea for a wonder or civic that would basically make it so your army only worked if it was mostly magic units.

Magic Units: Double XP, 1/2 Build time
Non-Magic Unite: 1/2 XP, Double Build Time

 

[Janusi]

My own suggestion for the future:
A ghostship. This can be either a barbarian sea unit or one for the Ashen Veil. In any case it can load only undead units and when it defeats another ship it has a small chance to spawn a new ghostship.

As for Ashen Veil terrain, how about something that saps the lifeforce (negative healing factor like the plague) out of any living thing that resides there. A good way to defend your territory and the drawback could be that it hardly/didn't give you any food, hammers or coins.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Kael]

Hi!

I gave your mod a try and there are quite a few things i liked(like the new tech tree, new religions, more RPG feel for units with the reworked promotions), but, perhaps I dont see the forest from all the trees, I felt that something was broken. To be specific, farms and irrigation. There should be some way to spread irrigation or build alternate food production improvements. Any city that was not built on a river was doomed to stagnation at size 2-3, and the AI seemed completely confused(Russians did not build a single road). This was the 0.6 version, I think.

The big difference between 0.60 and 0.70 is the AI gets much better. Irrigation is also allowed away from water in 0.70. In 0.80 Windmills, Workshops and Lumbermills get boosted with laters game techs so it will make the economic model even better (0.80 isn't out yet).

 

[loki1232]

My own suggestion for the future:
A ghostship. This can be either a barbarian sea unit or one for the Ashen Veil. In any case it can load only undead units and when it defeats another ship it has a small chance to spawn a new ghostship.

As for Ashen Veil terrain, how about something that saps the lifeforce (negative healing factor like the plague) out of any living thing that resides there. A good way to defend your territory and the drawback could be that it hardly/didn't give you any food, hammers or coins.
.

I think the ghostship works better as a sea barb, but maybe once the Ashen veil gets more undead/minion units it would work for them too.

I like that idea for the ashen veil terrain, but have a couple of modfications.
1. Ashen Veil Uniques residing there would get a strength bonue.
2. It actually gives units passing through, and staying there the plauge.
3. It can be only built by demon summoners, but can be built on any land terrain.
4. It has a cool name: "Gate to Hell".
5. It has a small chance of sawning a barb "Hellspawn" which is a something like 10 strength, but isn't "summoned".
6. It adds to global warming.

 

[Kael]

That's obvious that one religion civic won't be as powerful as another one's... But when someone decides to convert to a religion making the civic a bit better than others in it's category could make it worthwile and someone would actually use them.
I've never used Slavery in your mod as Military State came always pretty soon and I favor Consumprion over Social Order as it gives me more money and makes more cities happy (market + theatre).

And speaking of civics, I have yet to see Free Religion being used - never in your mod has AI adopted it and I wouldn't exchange my religious bonuses for it as well .

Yeah, the mod is about a world in the middle of an ideological war, free religion will never be a very viable option. The closest to it will Cassiel and the Grigori who believe that it is wrong of the Gods to use men as pawns to fight their conflict for them. Cassiel will have the Agnostic trait, making it difficult for religions to spread into his cities and special abilities that help to stomp out religions. But all of that isn't coming until phase 2.

 

[loki1232]

I gave the slaying promotions so thought and had a breakthrough.

What if whenever a unit killed a race specific unit, it got that promotion to symbolize that no they know the best ways to kill elves or dwarves or etc.
This way you can leave it at +40%, but units will still end up with it.

 

[loki1232]

Yeah, the mod is about a world in the middle of an ideological war, free religion will never be a very viable option. The closest to it will Cassiel and the Grigori who believe that it is wrong of the Gods to use men as pawns to fight their conflict for them. Cassiel will have the Agnostic trait, making it difficult for religions to spread into his cities and special abilities that help to stomp out religions. But all of that isn't coming until phase 2.

No offense, but in this case you might as well get rid of free religion all together right now.

 

[Kael]

Is there a way really to add offensive terrain bonuses to units?
OK, elven archers defend better in the woods, but shouldn't they also have a bonus to attacking units in woods? or some way to negate the forest defense bonus?

I mean, the way it is they're purely defensive units because they're rather weak and their only advantage is forest defense.

Yes although its a bit of a pain (I would have to watch every unit move and then apply or remove promotions based on the sort of tile they entered). I wish there was an easier way to do it. In the end I will probably add it, because I agree it is a good idea.

EDIT:

Oh, and, er, I think that spellcaster class units should get ridiculous (+200%, 300%) defense bonuses against fireballs/meteors/summoned units.
Makes sense and adds a gameplay mechanic

As it is, 3 archmages are all you need to completely and utterly defeat an enemy civ (I just rolled over the aztecs and egyptians using 3 archmages defended by 3 bronze golems).
And I noticed that the AI seems to keep mages for defence in some cities (maybe only the capitals, not sure, don't recall), so it can actually work.

I do have a magic resistent promotion planned that will give bonus's similiar to the ones you mentioned. I don't think it will be applied to spellcasters but to a range of units that can be used to counter spellcasters.

 

[Snake Pliskeen]

This mod is great and it's the only one I play these days, but has a big problem. You cant even imagine to start a war before 1600-1700, you simply cant build your buildings to produce units keeping expanding and researching.
Even specializing cities for a single units production you need too long time to create an ordinary army. Not to say if you want to build some wonders, simply impossible!
If you balance the cost of building allowing a faster production this will become soon the best mod ever created.

 

[loki1232]

This mod is great and it's the only one I play these days, but has a big problem. You cant even imagine to start a war before 1600-1700, you simply cant build your buildings to produce units keeping expanding and researching.
Even specializing cities for a single units production you need too long time to create an ordinary army. Not to say if you want to build some wonders, simply impossible!
If you balance the cost of building allowing a faster production this will become soon the best mod ever created.

I generally go the economic route, but i do agree with you on this.
I think it was added to make it harder to rush the enemies and win that way, but i agree that there is probably a better solution.
One solutions would be to start with a very powerful only defending unit for your capital which would allow defense, especially if that unit could cast spells.

 

[BlakTooth]

This mod is great and it's the only one I play these days, but has a big problem. You cant even imagine to start a war before 1600-1700, you simply cant build your buildings to produce units keeping expanding and researching.
Even specializing cities for a single units production you need too long time to create an ordinary army. Not to say if you want to build some wonders, simply impossible!
If you balance the cost of building allowing a faster production this will become soon the best mod ever created.

lol, i didn't get this experience at all!

Making 3 cities and then starting an early horseman/horse archer push with plundering can demolish the AI in the early game. In fact, dedicated city attack units (aka macemen) aren't needed until mid-late game (vs other crossbows/macemen).

And even they become obsolete when you get national units (who, like Lightzy said, can even in small numbers roll through whole civilizations on their own )

The key is to not be land-greedy and expand at a slow, gradual pace. Any tries at fast expansion will get you eaten alive (by both the maintenance costs and the barbarian raids).

 

[Kael]

lol, i didn't get this experience at all!

Making 3 cities and then starting an early horseman/horse archer push with plundering can demolish the AI in the early game. In fact, dedicated city attack units (aka macemen) aren't needed until mid-late game (vs other crossbows/macemen).

And even they become obsolete when you get national units (who, like Lightzy said, can even in small numbers roll through whole civilizations on their own )

The key is to not be land-greedy and expand at a slow, gradual pace. Any tries at fast expansion will get you eaten alive (by both the maintenance costs and the barbarian raids).

I think these are just 2 different styles of play. Some people don't like to wage war until they have an overwhelming force ready to go. Other people pop out 4 units and start terroizing their neighbors with them.

But I agree with you, I am more worried about early rushes being to effective rather than not effective enough.

 

[Chaosrik]

How about the possibility of adding a couple of naval/air units. I know obviously fantasy orientated but maybe some sort of Dwarven Steam boat/submarine that could carry maybe 6 units and move a bit faster than a Galleon or a Goblin Zepplin type unit or balloon that could fly units about/recon/bombard. Possibly Dragons and the like? It just seemed to be a bit slow moving units to other continents and also not many naval battles. Just an idea as I'm not sure how you want the mod to progress in terms of technologys?

Keep up the great work guys...

 

[loki1232]

How about the possibility of adding a couple of naval/air units. I know obviously fantasy orientated but maybe some sort of Dwarven Steam boat/submarine that could carry maybe 6 units and move a bit faster than a Galleon or a Goblin Zepplin type unit or balloon that could fly units about/recon/bombard. Possibly Dragons and the like? It just seemed to be a bit slow moving units to other continents and also not many naval battles. Just an idea as I'm not sure how you want the mod to progress in terms of technologys?

Keep up the great work guys...

Lol how many times have people wanted this?
I personally agree with you on everything except the golblin zepplin, because goblins don't play much of a role in this mod.

 

[Kael]

How about the possibility of adding a couple of naval/air units. I know obviously fantasy orientated but maybe some sort of Dwarven Steam boat/submarine that could carry maybe 6 units and move a bit faster than a Galleon or a Goblin Zepplin type unit or balloon that could fly units about/recon/bombard. Possibly Dragons and the like? It just seemed to be a bit slow moving units to other continents and also not many naval battles. Just an idea as I'm not sure how you want the mod to progress in terms of technologys?

Keep up the great work guys...

That would all be awesome. Right now I am limited by the models available. Although I was able to make the amazing hawk (/sarcasm) there isn't much more I can do with the models I have available. Hopefully once the SDK comes out we will have access to more models and I can do that kind of stuff.