[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Kael]

Hi!

I began with friends a multiplayer with FfH v0.9.

From around round 200 barbarian cites are founded with NO units in it.
You just walk in and destroy the city.

Is it intented to be so?

I will check it out. The barbarian placement code is all engine stuff. The only changes I make is in making the barbarians more common. Are you using Haarbals civ or the "civ4" ones that come with the mod?

 

[seamus75]

Thanks for the reply. Love what you've got planned. The Dancing bears and Future techs sound like they would address the few negatives remaining in the late game. Gonna try again on a different map type to get away from religious dominance, and maybe try with one of the good guys (last game was OO the world over). Keep it up!

Thanks - Seamus

 

[Question Mark]

I think it has been mentioned before, but I would really like a change in the hero promotion. Unique and special units are great, but simply camping in a city, waiting to level up isn't too heroic. Extra xp from fighting might be better. Apart from that I really enjoy having heroes. They add flavour and individuality.

Also, while on the subject of special individuals, I would like comment on the Avatar of Wrath. First: Great! Really great! It makes ... interesting games. But wouldn't it make sense to give some kind of benefit to the builder? A combat bonus vs. barbs for example. This might even make the AI build it.

 

[Kerrang]

What do you mean a lack of religious diversity? You mean that the other civs tend to all adopt the same religion? If so I think that is partially because of the game type (marathon and pangea map lends itself to a wide spread of a single religion).

I am having the same problem on my current .90 game, and I am doing a standard sized maze map, with normal game speed, I am also using Harbaal's civs. I founded Runes first, and spread it to a few civs, one of which eventually turned out to be my best friends, the Merfolk. I made sure every Merfolk city had Runes, in order to keep on friendly terms, and they adopted it as their state religion early in the game.

I also founded Leaves and Order, but avoided Veil and OO. Someone founded OO, and began to spread it around later in the game, within 50 turns or so of the founding of OO, eveyone except my civ and the Merfolk had converted to OO. It was about this time that I was shopping around for a civ to conquer (I had already taken out the Dark Elves), and settled on the Dark Dwarves (as we had the worst relations). Before I could declare on them the Dark Dwarves surprised me by declaring on me. They had the second lowest score, and I had the highest. I thought this would be a good time to leverage my friendly relations with the Merfolk, as they shared a land border with the DD, and I only had borders over the sea.

Just about this time, the Merfolk canceled their Defensive Pact with me, and I noticed that they had converted to OO as well. I thought that this was bery odd, as they had been the first civ I had spread Runes too, and they had been a Runes civ for hundreds of years. I thought I might want to patch things up a bit before asking them to decalre war on a civ that shared state religions with them, so I bribed them to convert back to Runes, which they happily obliged as I was offering them a juicy tech. A few turns later they were back on OO, and I could not convince them to change back to Runes (I wasn't willing to offer any bribes as I had been hosed on that before).

So it is just me with the Runes, and all 7 other civs with OO (soon to be 6, the DD have only 2 cities left). It would appear that some tweaking needs to be done to keep the later religions from becoming so dominant with the AI.

 

[Lightzy]

Dunno, I just played a map on normal/huge continents.
I'm only with 3 other civs in the continent, one is my religion (order), the rest are split between OO and Runes.

Maybe its different on pangea, but I like maps with water

 

[woodelf]

I will check it out. The barbarian placement code is all engine stuff. The only changes I make is in making the barbarians more common. Are you using Haarbals civ or the "civ4" ones that come with the mod?

I've come across this in the last 2 versions using Vanilla civs. For some reason the AI sends out it's only unit to explore....

 

[kevjm]

Most of the civs in my game end up as the fellowship (normal speed, large map)- I usually hold out for order rather than converting to fellowship when it reaches me though.

About the spell which removes promotions, will heros be imune to this?

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

A thought about future tech, could you split it up? So you can research health and happiness separetly? And add more (e.g +1 food). Would make late (marginally) funnier to play.

How would it make it funnier? I think the dancing bear bit is funnier, more food is just more power...

-El Scotto

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

A boon for our beligured Kael:

Kael - inspiration struck recently, and it would save you time if you want to implement it.

I was thinking on your promotions aimed at harming specific things like 40% vs giants, 40% vs elves or dwarves, and it occurs to me that i rarly use them, becuase the dwarves, elves etc (maybe not demonic) get outdated faster than units can get promoted to them. As there are not tier 3 or 4 elves and dwarves (as a standard unit) it makes little sense to use a promotion when a more rounded one...40% vs. all melee would still apply to dwarves, and other units as well. Perhaps make the specific anti-type promotions a bit stronger, so its not silly to take.

IN this though i was trying to figure out how to improve your dwarves and elves. I of course, want late game versions - I'd love to be able to field an army of nothing but elves, or dwarves if possible and if it fits the theme im aiming at for that game. And it occured to me, the "equipment" tech might be what im looking for. Instead of creating a "whole new unit" that comes further down a tech tree, perhaps you could just create a new promotion (and building that that provides that promotion to all x-type units) that adds 100-200% strength to the unit. This is basically then a dwarven upgrade.

If you have your Dwarven Soliders Str - 3, Mine ability, Double-uber in hills, but your facing macemen and axemen (whom are stronger) and the like, you stop using dwarves and favor other units. BUT, if you build your "Dwarven Hall" Which provides all dwarven units with the "Stalwart" promotion, suddenly your dwarves are Str 3, Mine ability, Double-uber in hills, AND +100% or 200% Str. YOu now effectively have a new unit at the 3rd teir. The dwarf effective str is 6 or 9. The promotions he's earned however (Combat I, or whatever), would reflect the base strength, not this new uber strength - i consider that something of a balancing effect so this doesnt get carried out of hand.

This could apply to any units you dont want to create a whole new graphic for, but could easily create a new quick building and promotion for. (Building-promotion for new units built and normal promotion for units that have x amount of exp)

-El Scotto

EDIT: The balancing nature would work out well, as your dwarves and elves are tier 2 cost to produce, but with the upgrades they could compete (as a functionally new unit) in a tier 3 and tier 4 world. The fact that their promotions reflect their origional values, counters the cheap cost of the units late game.

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Thanks for the reply. Love what you've got planned. The Dancing bears and Future techs sound like they would address the few negatives remaining in the late game. Gonna try again on a different map type to get away from religious dominance, and maybe try with one of the good guys (last game was OO the world over). Keep it up!

Thanks - Seamus

Kael - could it be made possible to use the inquisitor offensively? Or make a unit that is a version of the inquisitor - offensively like "the Subversive" or something.

Your spy/inquistor-cross enters a forigen city, and goes about the buisness of removing religions you dont like....there would have to be some heavy cost and limitation to this of course - but it would provide a way to reduce religion dominance in civs you dont want influenced. Perhaps you must have open boarders (friendly status) with the civ and then you could "help them see the error of their ways" I shouldnt think that the civ whom your "liberating" would be angery, but perhaps anyone who's state religion was eliminated (potentially the civ your "liberating") in the city would get slightly pissed off.

The AI could be told to use the unit much like a disciple (since in effect its still kinda spreading ones OWN religion, at the end of a sharp pointy spear..)

-El Scotto

EDIT: The potential badness of the AI turning this little thing on YOU, would have its impact as well, im certain. The Holy city should be immune from this effect - i would hope.

 

[BlakTooth]

A boon for our beligured Kael:

Kael - inspiration struck recently, and it would save you time if you want to implement it.

I was thinking on your promotions aimed at harming specific things like 40% vs giants, 40% vs elves or dwarves, and it occurs to me that i rarly use them, becuase the dwarves, elves etc (maybe not demonic) get outdated faster than units can get promoted to them. As there are not tier 3 or 4 elves and dwarves (as a standard unit) it makes little sense to use a promotion when a more rounded one...40% vs. all melee would still apply to dwarves, and other units as well. Perhaps make the specific anti-type promotions a bit stronger, so its not silly to take.

IN this though i was trying to figure out how to improve your dwarves and elves. I of course, want late game versions - I'd love to be able to field an army of nothing but elves, or dwarves if possible and if it fits the theme im aiming at for that game. And it occured to me, the "equipment" tech might be what im looking for. Instead of creating a "whole new unit" that comes further down a tech tree, perhaps you could just create a new promotion (and building that that provides that promotion to all x-type units) that adds 100-200% strength to the unit. This is basically then a dwarven upgrade.

If you have your Dwarven Soliders Str - 3, Mine ability, Double-uber in hills, but your facing macemen and axemen (whom are stronger) and the like, you stop using dwarves and favor other units. BUT, if you build your "Dwarven Hall" Which provides all dwarven units with the "Stalwart" promotion, suddenly your dwarves are Str 3, Mine ability, Double-uber in hills, AND +100% or 200% Str. YOu now effectively have a new unit at the 3rd teir. The dwarf effective str is 6 or 9. The promotions he's earned however (Combat I, or whatever), would reflect the base strength, not this new uber strength - i consider that something of a balancing effect so this doesnt get carried out of hand.

This could apply to any units you dont want to create a whole new graphic for, but could easily create a new quick building and promotion for. (Building-promotion for new units built and normal promotion for units that have x amount of exp)

-El Scotto

EDIT: The balancing nature would work out well, as your dwarves and elves are tier 2 cost to produce, but with the upgrades they could compete (as a functionally new unit) in a tier 3 and tier 4 world. The fact that their promotions reflect their origional values, counters the cheap cost of the units late game.

Wow, that's a great Idea. I second it.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

on the religion note on a three content map we discovered leaves first and within 6 to 7 turns all but one of the races on my continent had founded it as their state religion. 6 turns later the one that hated me also addapted it and thats with us also founding a secondary religion in the world and one we havent discovered yet foudning runes. but religion does spred way fast it seems maybe a couple of different religions and a slower spread rate.3

ideas for other religions: something like Baal worship of golden idol something about money and power being a worship this could be founded by gnomes since they are a greedy lot.

dragon god maybe first to build the dragon horde can addopt worship of the dragon god?

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Health and Late game:

I know we all want to have pristine little cities that utilize every bit of resource we fought for - but ill say it, i think we SHOULDNT have more health late game. If you pick a civ that utilized Fellowship - guardian of nature is your answer, their cities SHOULD be pristine. BUt the vale, the overlords and even the runes should have sweltering cities of cesspools. It A) keeps populations from getting crazy rediculous (my fellowship city had 29 pop once...yeesh) And further more it adds to the feel. The amount of food thats generated generally keeps people alive - so starvation isnt a factor unless civics alter how your doing things. Also, did i mention it adds to the feel? Slaves dont live in a eudimonian utopia with free healthcare! THey work, bleed and die for their overlords!

If there IS something to be said, perhaps make the different levels of "compassion" more different from one another, each having unique virtues and vices, isntead of just being a sliding scale - if someones going for health they go all the way, if someone doesnt care, they get their 15% gold. Maybe add production bonuses to a new compassion civic. And remove the modifier from "fend for themselvse" that could be your standard (nothing happens) civic.

5-6 Levels -
Fend for Themselves - no change
Exploit the Weak - +1 Unhealthy, +15% Production (buildiings and units)
Use the Meek - +1 Unhealthy, +15% Gold
Protect the Weak - +1 Healthy, +Maintenance (or whatever)
Universal Love of shiny happy people (or whatever) - +2 Healthy, +building happyness, -% Gold.
And whatever else fits the theme.

-El Scotto

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

on the religion note on a three content map we discovered leaves first and within 6 to 7 turns all but one of the races on my continent had founded it as their state religion. 6 turns later the one that hated me also addapted it and thats with us also founding a secondary religion in the world and one we havent discovered yet foudning runes. but religion does spred way fast it seems maybe a couple of different religions and a slower spread rate.3

ideas for other religions: something like Baal worship of golden idol something about money and power being a worship this could be founded by gnomes since they are a greedy lot.

dragon god maybe first to build the dragon horde can addopt worship of the dragon god?

Interesting religions, but i think Kael is working with a theme - Id be all for another 2 religions though if it fit with said theme.

But speaking of dragons, Why not have a Dragon Barbarian that comes out of the blue mid/late game and wreaks havoc? One unit, Maybe helicopter in style (and some way of slowly having it damage itself when its away from cities) that runs around capturing cities (oh i know, Pain in the butt, took your capital...) but whomever kills it gets a unit with a promotion that when they "use it" in a city, it creates the Dragon Horde Wonder (which by the way is listed as a national wonder if no one had reported that). Maybe make the dragon horde a little more powerful, as it would require fighting a dragon that is most likely pillaging your lands, eating your people, and destroying your cities.

-El Scotto

EDIT: OOO Another thought, Kael, will we get to play with dragons (e.g. make them) late game? *Salivates at prospect of burning enemies to a crisp in a field of fire like Aegon the Conquerer*

 

[Kidinnu]

IN this though i was trying to figure out how to improve your dwarves and elves. I of course, want late game versions - I'd love to be able to field an army of nothing but elves, or dwarves if possible and if it fits the theme im aiming at for that game. And it occured to me, the "equipment" tech might be what im looking for. Instead of creating a "whole new unit" that comes further down a tech tree, perhaps you could just create a new promotion (and building that that provides that promotion to all x-type units) that adds 100-200% strength to the unit. This is basically then a dwarven upgrade.

EDIT: The balancing nature would work out well, as your dwarves and elves are tier 2 cost to produce, but with the upgrades they could compete (as a functionally new unit) in a tier 3 and tier 4 world. The fact that their promotions reflect their origional values, counters the cheap cost of the units late game.

I think this is only a stopgap unit. E.g. a str-3 dwarf with Combat III and Stalwart would have net strength 7.8; a str-6 unit with Combat III would have net strength 9.6. Not pretty combat odds.

So your elves/dwarves would have to be significantly more experienced than the next-tier units they were going up against to have a chance of winning.

But if the cost of building dwarves was only half that of building tier-3 units, you might see a swarm be viable. Zerg is not a term I ever want to see in Civ4, thanks. *shudder*

I am with QuasiEvilScott on not needing any more health in the late game, however - but it's Kael's world. My fantasy mod (someday ) won't have any way to support cities so large.

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

I think this is only a stopgap unit. E.g. a str-3 dwarf with Combat III and Stalwart would have net strength 7.8; a str-6 unit with Combat III would have net strength 9.6. Not pretty combat odds.

So your elves/dwarves would have to be significantly more experienced than the next-tier units they were going up against to have a chance of winning.

But if the cost of building dwarves was only half that of building tier-3 units, you might see a swarm be viable. Zerg is not a term I ever want to see in Civ4, thanks. *shudder*

I am with QuasiEvilScott on not needing any more health in the late game, however - but it's Kael's world. My fantasy mod (someday ) won't have any way to support cities so large.

Im not for swarming zerg style, forgive me if i implied that, more like units to A) round out the force, or B) when you dont want to use mercs but dont have resources of other "fun" units.

And its obviously easy to change the "upgrade" to a percentage that would make it competitive with units in the 3rd teir fresh out of the city - a veteran maceman SHOULD kill a Stalwart Dwarf - as the higher cost of the maceman + expereince would warrent that. But, a Green Stalwart Dwarf and a Green Maceman might be on equal footing. The benifit going to the dwarf as its cheaper, but if the maceman lives, its veteran status would be more powerful than a veteran Stalwart.

I didnt do the math, would 250% make it better? It seems pretty easy to find the best mean.

-El Scotto

EDIT: I would think an UPGRADED unit should be fairly powerful - even for the new teir they're possessing, it would THEN warrent using promotions like "dwarf-slayer" and "Elf-slayer".

EDIT: Doing some math, perhaps +200% for a tier 3 upgrade, and another 200% for a tier 4 upgrade. This would put the Tier 3 dwarf at 9 str (without base str promotions) and a tier 4 dwarf at 15 (before base str promotions) either that or 150% twice , 7.5 and 12.

 

[Kael]

Interesting religions, but i think Kael is working with a theme - Id be all for another 2 religions though if it fit with said theme.

But speaking of dragons, Why not have a Dragon Barbarian that comes out of the blue mid/late game and wreaks havoc? One unit, Maybe helicopter in style (and some way of slowly having it damage itself when its away from cities) that runs around capturing cities (oh i know, Pain in the butt, took your capital...) but whomever kills it gets a unit with a promotion that when they "use it" in a city, it creates the Dragon Horde Wonder (which by the way is listed as a national wonder if no one had reported that). Maybe make the dragon horde a little more powerful, as it would require fighting a dragon that is most likely pillaging your lands, eating your people, and destroying your cities.

-El Scotto

EDIT: OOO Another thought, Kael, will we get to play with dragons (e.g. make them) late game? *Salivates at prospect of burning enemies to a crisp in a field of fire like Aegon the Conquerer*

Id love to have dragons, but I need dragon Models. Loki has been working on both a dragon quest and trying to find a way to slip a dragon model into the game. It won't be in 1.0. But someday we will have them (whats a fantasy mod without dragons?!?)

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Id love to have dragons, but I need dragon Models. Loki has been working on both a dragon quest and trying to find a way to slip a dragon model into the game. It won't be in 1.0. But someday we will have them (whats a fantasy mod without dragons?!?)

A man after my own heart.

-El Scotto

 

[Kael]

A boon for our beligured Kael:

Kael - inspiration struck recently, and it would save you time if you want to implement it.

I was thinking on your promotions aimed at harming specific things like 40% vs giants, 40% vs elves or dwarves, and it occurs to me that i rarly use them, becuase the dwarves, elves etc (maybe not demonic) get outdated faster than units can get promoted to them. As there are not tier 3 or 4 elves and dwarves (as a standard unit) it makes little sense to use a promotion when a more rounded one...40% vs. all melee would still apply to dwarves, and other units as well. Perhaps make the specific anti-type promotions a bit stronger, so its not silly to take.

IN this though i was trying to figure out how to improve your dwarves and elves. I of course, want late game versions - I'd love to be able to field an army of nothing but elves, or dwarves if possible and if it fits the theme im aiming at for that game. And it occured to me, the "equipment" tech might be what im looking for. Instead of creating a "whole new unit" that comes further down a tech tree, perhaps you could just create a new promotion (and building that that provides that promotion to all x-type units) that adds 100-200% strength to the unit. This is basically then a dwarven upgrade.

If you have your Dwarven Soliders Str - 3, Mine ability, Double-uber in hills, but your facing macemen and axemen (whom are stronger) and the like, you stop using dwarves and favor other units. BUT, if you build your "Dwarven Hall" Which provides all dwarven units with the "Stalwart" promotion, suddenly your dwarves are Str 3, Mine ability, Double-uber in hills, AND +100% or 200% Str. YOu now effectively have a new unit at the 3rd teir. The dwarf effective str is 6 or 9. The promotions he's earned however (Combat I, or whatever), would reflect the base strength, not this new uber strength - i consider that something of a balancing effect so this doesnt get carried out of hand.

This could apply to any units you dont want to create a whole new graphic for, but could easily create a new quick building and promotion for. (Building-promotion for new units built and normal promotion for units that have x amount of exp)

-El Scotto

EDIT: The balancing nature would work out well, as your dwarves and elves are tier 2 cost to produce, but with the upgrades they could compete (as a functionally new unit) in a tier 3 and tier 4 world. The fact that their promotions reflect their origional values, counters the cheap cost of the units late game.

Dwarves aren't melee and elves aren't archers, so those bonus's don't work against them. Making the 3 strength Dwarven Soldier more effective than the 4 strength Axeman against an opponent with the Shock promotion (and much better if they have Shock II).

The Elf Slaying and Dwarf Slaying promotions are weak, but become more powerful as new units are added to the game. When the new Civ's are introduced in phse 2 they will bring new units with them. For the elves they will get reguarly costed versions of the elven units (right now elves and dwarves are overcosted because you are buying them at "human" prices) and there will be more elven units to pick from. Making the slaying traits much more valuable.

I am only adding 1 t4 religious unit to the game in 1.0, and its for the Veil.

So for phase 1 elves and dwarves will remain minor players able to help out for specific functions in the early game, and the heroes help later, but thats about it. There will be more done with them in phase 2.

 

[Kael]

Most of the civs in my game end up as the fellowship (normal speed, large map)- I usually hold out for order rather than converting to fellowship when it reaches me though.

About the spell which removes promotions, will heros be imune to this?

That spell was just an idea tossed around. It won't be in 1.0.