[MOD] NEW BALANCE for Warlords (was slower tech + other changes mod)

Dearmad said:
The pigs... were in a jungle tile? I've never seen that before. What map style was this?

Although historically when pigs are introduced to jungles they do OK... but Imean just game mechanic-wise, I've enver seen a pig tile be formed in a jungle.

Shuffle, large map, epic speed. It turned into a pangea style, temparate I think, because there is a jungle belt at equator, grasslands and desert north and south, capped by tundra.

As I said, I wish ressource tiles in jungles should be usable. Gradually through the ages, so that you begin with roads and mining in jungle (after iron?), plantations, pastures and farms. Because you work on 5-10 tiles, there are still about 200 jungle tiles left to make life a *****, anyways :)

Btw. The clumpiness generation is.. a bit clumpy. I had 10 spices spawn within one city radius on this map, too. Thats a bit harsh, isn't it?
 
I play using 18 total civs & the normal map generators "huge" map is 128x80 which isnt nearly big enuff for that many civs. After messing around with all of the smartmap settings, 160x100 is perfect for 18 civs. If there was a way to play a larger sized, normally generated terra map, believe me, Id be all about it. I think I found the answer to the problem tho, Ive been using standard for Bonus Placement, Bonus Density & Goodies which would seem to be the right choice but isnt. Using SmartMaps normal settings gets resources close to normal, I made 2 maps & actually saw 2 whales on both & a decent amount of fish. Should still be alot more but I mite be making progress, 2 tired 2 mess around with it nemore, must....get....sleep. Ill keep things updated so smartmap users have an idea what to use to make things right.

About the ICBM sound, never heard the original civ4 one because I never got around to getting that far but they have been annoying as hell in past civ games. Listened to 2.3a's & it sounds good.

I agree 100% that coastal cities are important but when theres no whales or fish to support them, its hard to get one to become anywhere as close to as quality as far as population/culture & production like an inland city backed by resources. You really have to play a messed up smartmap to understand. lol
 
Slow. What is slow? Anyways, forget about smartmaps for now, really!

It seems that dale's combat mod is geared for Warlords compatibility with the release of 1.01. I wonder how that mod will work with this mod. Do you think they will be compatible? You already did something for balance with your unit tweaks, but Dale's mod is a reworking of how combat works, especially arty units and trebs, cats.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168966&page=18
 
lol 4get smartmaps? thats like when warlords came out ppl were like, 4get warlords users lol. Hah reminded me ofa Southpark episode, Red hot catholic love, where the priest guy ( forget his name ) was all like, maybe we should just 4get about the Gelgomecs, ravvle, ravvle, ravvle. Haha, Im prolly the only fan & one that will get that & that will only just amuse me but 1's good enuff. Newayz fact is theres no other solution if you want/need a larger map to play on, as many ppl do because vanilla civ maps are way to small unless you like an unrealisticly & unenjoyably small world where only 6-8 civs exist. Not really my cupa tea, so "forget smartmaps", isnt really um an option.

As for contacting its creator, hes away ona business trip for an undetermined amount of time & even so, smartmaps & this mod worked 100% perfectly together & made easily the best civ game ever ( check my 1st post, 1st page I believe ) b4 this new resource thing was introduced, if I can just delete it or get it to work how it does on normally generated crap maps, thatd be gr8. Its not a big deal about seafood resources being off no & small resource " glitches " no but its more of an issue then jungles & all the other minor stuff IMO. If I can help make this gr8 mod fully compatible with smartmaps to help the countless others who do like playing a realistic game, confortably ona realistically sized map w/ more than 6 civs ina game, which from the number of downloads of smartmap seem to be the majority ( 37,772 views, 407 replies ) then Im gonna. I really dont know how I ever enjoyed Civ4 w/o NewBalance & Smartmap. Ive done some research in the forum & am gonna keep testing things until I get things fixed just right. Wish I had more ( any, haha ) modding knowledge & expereince but if learned myself enuff & got Oblivion "running" w/o effecting graphic quality ona Nvidia 6800XT in 1080iHD mode, 1712x928 resoultion, which was said 2 be " impossible " then I know I can figure this out eventually lol. All I really know to date is tweaking ini. files which isnt going to be much help here but if I have to take some time 2 educate myself on other ways, then so be it, its worth it to me to have a realsticly sized & enjoyable map. & I really dun have much else to do at work sometimes, so getting payed how to mod civ4 sounds aight to me. hah
 
Point being, SmartMaps actually scans your start location for items, if I understand the script. So the way that ressources are altered is messing up with smartmaps. But doesn't that point to a problem with smartmaps? I mean, if you cannot alter any ressources ever, because it messes with smartmaps, then a balance mod might just as well not be there?

But perhaps Dearmad can tell you which files that the ressource changes are contained in, so you can simply edit that to default values?
 
In my opinion, tech is a bit too slow for my liking right now. I am going to see if I can change the research buildings back to their default rate, while leaving economy buildings alone, and see how it fares.
 
Immacolata said:
Shuffle, large map, epic speed. It turned into a pangea style, temparate I think, because there is a jungle belt at equator, grasslands and desert north and south, capped by tundra.

As I said, I wish ressource tiles in jungles should be usable. Gradually through the ages, so that you begin with roads and mining in jungle (after iron?), plantations, pastures and farms. Because you work on 5-10 tiles, there are still about 200 jungle tiles left to make life a *****, anyways :)

Btw. The clumpiness generation is.. a bit clumpy. I had 10 spices spawn within one city radius on this map, too. Thats a bit harsh, isn't it?

What is "shuffle?"

If this is "smartmap" I can't address its issues. I've never seen any of the issues you all are bringing up on resources. Since I don't, how can I fix them?
 
Shuffle? thats the last selection on the play now selection screen. It randomly chooses between some map types, forget which. But one of them is a Pangea type, which I am playing on now. You can have my savegame if you want. I am not using any map scripts, its your mod and warlords only.

By usable jungle tiles, I mean that they should all be improvable before Biology. Ie. you can build plantation on sugar, farms on rice, pasture on pigs, and mine on gems before invention of biology. In late game, the release of one ressource tile with rice or pigs is not as significant as it would be if you gained access to it way earlier.

Im vying for a bit more use of the tiles you DO get. You aren't letting people burn 60 tiles of jungle by allowing to improve the jungle tiles with bonuse ressources on them, hardly.

I haven't been able to figure out how to change the building research bonus yet. can you give a hint to where it is ?
 
I dun think shuffle has to do with smartmaps. & there werent any issues at all with this mod & smartmap b4 the resource change u made, wish i could find out what you changed so I can change it back so its not a problem at all nemore. In the 1600s with a game right now & Im liking the new balance speed as far as tech & everything goes. Turns are going by a lil little to fast for my taste but the techs & units being discovered/used are almost perfect with the dates in our time. Ill try a game on epic when I get back monday & see how that goes, every1 havea good weekend. Even u non smartmap users haha.
 
The resources changes were in it from day one, a year ago. So the data I'm getting by report isn't, sorry, but exactly accurate.

"turns are going by too fast"? I'm not sure what that means.

Just delete the resources.xml if you want more of them. I don't want more. There's no challenge with them everywhere for me.

building research is in buildings.xml

you can improve almost every jungle square to use it if there's a resource there prior to biology. I've written this many times its even in the readme. Unless you are making avastly differnt point, I am done discussing this "issue." The jungle thing is something at the core of the mod for me. I'm not about making it easier for the player to do anything the player wants. I'm about setting up fair challenges for the player- challenges the AI can face in the game- swarming the map with 18+ civs isn't about a fair challenge unless your map is, literally, 3x larger in all directions (so 9x more tiles) than anything available in the civ game without modding. If you mod it that way expect to mod it in others ways yourself. If challenge=frustration for you, I'm sorry, but it doesn't for me. Especially when it is fair.

Pastures and farms though? Sorry. 1: that's too advanced IMO. 2. I've yet to see pigs and farmable things in jungle tiles... in any game I've played in Civ IV. So I'm confused. Rice, yes occassionally, but here's the deal. Rice isn't an exportable *commidity* until you grow it in mass amounts.. meaning you CLEAR the jungle. Not going to happen in this mod prior to Biology. You DO, as with any resource, however, get bonuses without even clearing it.
 
need to add this:

Criticism are good. I take them and employ a lot of them. But you all need to remember something: if your crit goes to something that is a founding idea to the mod, maybe you should embark on your own. I'm really not agreeable to changing certain fundamental elements to the mod. The mod isn't, really, for other people, it's for me, I just share it in case others might like it. When flaws and bad thinking are pointed out, OK, I'll change that. But playstyle and "annoyances" simply don't map equally among all players.

I've layed out in this thread somewhere a fairly concise outline of the core ideas driving my mod and what I wanted to change to make the game more fun for me. Asking me to then, for example, add in the [xxx] tribe as a civ, or fantasy units, or magic... would obviously not fly. SImilarly, asking the jungle thing to be nerfed... probably not going to happen. If anything I'll make it more challenging for a civ to advance if its dealing with jungle. Jungles aren't, I'll say it till i'm blue, places adaptable to commerce, human life in cities, masses of agriculture, or resource extraction. Period.

I have no illusiuons that I'm making civ perfect or anything. Just different in ways that help the AI a bit, add some challenges to the player, slow things up a bit to allow more color into the game (hence why I added in the flavor units- for color). That's all.

Sorry for the little lecture, but maybe it would help clear things up.
 
Dearmad said:
Pastures and farms though? Sorry. 1: that's too advanced IMO. 2. I've yet to see pigs and farmable things in jungle tiles... in any game I've played in Civ IV. So I'm confused.

Well Im speaking the truth here, guv. Using vanilla civ 4 warlords maps, a litter of of the rare breed of jungle pigs have been laughing their arses off about 2 tiles from my new capital. They still are, at the fine year 1830. Thats 11830 years of mockery >.<

Rice, yes occassionally, but here's the deal. Rice isn't an exportable *commidity* until you grow it in mass amounts.. meaning you CLEAR the jungle. Not going to happen in this mod prior to Biology. You DO, as with any resource, however, get bonuses without even clearing it.

I wasn't aware that they gave bonuses even unimproved. And Ive played Civ 4 since last year :blush: Still, seems like an arbitrary choice to me. You can build a plantation but not a farm or pasture?

As for speed. At year 1830 I have about 220 turns left and I am just researching biology. This means that the modern age is going to be a very short period of time in the game. So Ill experiment with speeding up research about 5% or so, see what that does. I was really happy with the classical era, and the musketman era was FUN :) Had lots of great battles there. Half the continent were at each other. Me and my 2 vassals against Hannibal and his 2 vassals, THEN after that against the Chinese and his two vassals.

Perhaps that stunted research...

[EDIT]
I altered the research bonusses back to their original values. I left all commercial buildings. So the tech research should progress a bit faster, but not by much. Money is still slowed down to New Balance speeds, meaning that you cannot convert so much wealth to research as in vanilla.

The resources.xml file is called CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml I believe. I don't want to delete it, because your jungles idea is fundamentally sound, and the ressource scarcity drives the game aggressively forward. The whole mod is a pleasure to play. I just have this nag that I don't like that my bonus lies unused for millennia upon millennia. Altering the fact that I can improve a tile before biology does not remove the basic problem of jungles just like that. As I said, on my Pangea map (shuffled) I saw how this jungle made the game develop a distinct "civosphere"

North: dominant Hannibal.
South: dominant me.
middle: suffering germans and japanese.

I even bothered upgrading several of my units with 2 times jungle warfare promotion for extra moves :)

[EDIT2]

Farms are not really possible in jungle squares without removing the jungle, is it? So if you can farm a jungle square, you can remove it. Ie you don't need biology? I see why allowing farms could ruin the whole jungle theme.

But what about pasture? How does that affect the tile? Can you build a pasture without removing the forest/jungle? And if you can, it doesn't allow for "cheating" since the number of animals in jungle tile squares is really limited I think. What xml file affects this behaviour?
 
I'll add in pasture building at gunpowder without jungle removal. We'll see how that flows.

I'm still amazed you have pigs in Jungles though.

Also, research is too slow in later times, but IMO the slowdown does NOT start near Education, so speeding up universities again would rush too fast through the gunpowder/rennaissance for me. So, I moved laboratories earlier, they come with Electricity now. This leaves the tech computers rather empty- so I moved the FIRST FREE ENGINEER to computers from fusion (which seems a little late to me anywhere... I've been looking for a beter place for that guy for a long time).

Oh on the Manhatten Project thing. There's no way to mod it without going to the SDK, afaict. So I've made a different change. First one to fission gets 1 free nuke. This, actually, reflects history a little closer... you get one nuke to use, but any others will be a long ways off and at about the same time other developed nations will have plenty too. This isn't so powerfulas one may think since the diplo cost of using it is high, unless you're a pure warmonger, then there's no hope for you anyway. So far, I like this change. It makes it a little more scary when the AI gets there first... I could always beat them to Manhatten project.
 
Hehe, I haven't seen many animal tiles in jungles myself either. It can just be a fluke of the terrain generation script. The pig is at the very south borders of the jungle belt, right near grasslands and plains, so it probably happens rarely since you never see it. Pasture it be, then, but probably affecting few if any games.

Im not anywhere near your insight into the modding so you are probably right about the research. It is mostly fueled by commerce, isn't it? Your modification of commerce slows the money making at early ages, also damping research. Is a free engineer anywhere near enough to boost later stage research? We shall see :)

Im playing a new game with new balance speed, Ill let you know how research flows, with my vanilla uni/obs/lab research values. Im playing as Mongols on a terra map, and Im already looking forward to my faster produced armies, since I decided to warmonger my neighbours for some lebensraum. A good ole war feels good at 2350 bc!
 
Immacolata said:
Im not anywhere near your insight into the modding so you are probably right about the research. It is mostly fueled by commerce, isn't it? Your modification of commerce slows the money making at early ages, also damping research. Is a free engineer anywhere near enough to boost later stage research? We shall see :)

The free engineer was a by product. You missed the meat: laboratories (a research building of +20%) was moved up to a much earlier tech. This will push technology faster about 20 turns after electricity is accomplished. So the beginning of the the Infantry era will see a pick-up in tech pacing.

On the pigs... I think maybe the jungle spread to that tile after game start... that is possible.
 
Back early, newayz about recent posts....

Dearmad:
o slow tech research brutally
+ use the gamespeed xml
+ increase a few key tech costs
o slow tech indirectly
+ cool down the overall economy
# postpone certain advances (villages, for example)
# lower budget gains (banks and markets)
# terrain is harder to work with (jungles)
+ upset the population a bit so they aren't so productive
# greater unhappiness from certain buildings and actions
# greater pollution
- " - # less occurance of resources overall (not enough for everyone) - " -
o Grant player some controls to combat the slowdowns
+ greater civic affects
+ slightly longer golden ages
+ etc

You posted this at 2.2s intial release on page 3 I think. Whatever "this" change was, is whats been conflicting with the water tile resources for me. Its very rare ( twice outta 15 test maps ) I get a land resource glitch like the 20 or so gold tiles. I actually like that theres less land resources now but it seems like a redicolously small amount of fish & whales, especially when the crabs & clams seem to be untouched & gr8ly outnumber the fish & whales. Ill look for the file you mentioned & just remove it & Im confident the problem will go away. However that post you made above disputes this....

Dearmad " The resources changes were in it from day one, a year ago. So the data I'm getting by report isn't, sorry, but exactly accurate. "
As for this....

Dearmad " I'm about setting up fair challenges for the player- challenges the AI can face in the game- swarming the map with 18+ civs isn't about a fair challenge unless your map is, literally, 3x larger in all directions (so 9x more tiles) than anything available in the civ game without modding. If you mod it that way expect to mod it in others ways yourself. If challenge=frustration fr you, I'm sorry, but it doesn't for me. Especially when it is fair. "

Having more civs makes it much more of a challenge tho? lol. After testing several map sizes, 160x100 is perfect for 18 total civs, if you try to go one or 2 steps larger, like I said before, barbarians will wipe out at least 4-5 civs & you will never get a rest from attack after attack & by the mid game, the barbs have more cities/units easily then any civ will. If you know of some chart or something that recommends the amount of civs for a map size, its well lol simply wrong. I even tried all of the above out on Noble, I cant imagine a larger map on Prince or higher. On 160x100 you dont meet every1 until a realistic time either, which is also more accurate & even in my 1st game that I posted, in the 1800 & 1900's there was still some undeveloped land, unused resources & completely unihabited islands.

If you try & " flood a map with 18 total civs " ona standard " huge " vanilla civ 4 map, which is 128x80, then yeah I agree with what you said. If you even step up to the next biggest size it still isnt good but 160x100 is perfect for the max civs allowed in the game which is 18 ( w/o modding ).

Maybe the difference is, I play for realism, & in saying that, the game was not realstic enuff or a challenge enuff to be enjoyable for me until I used both this mod & smartmaps. Playing on a small, cramped map with like 6-10 civs in the whole world isnt realistic or enjoyable to me, just my taste. Doesnt make for good world wars, competition, allys, trade or in anyway a good, realistic game.

As for recommending changes, Ive only done so on actual gameplay & testing experience & the ones ive made have honestly been limited & accurate ( for example, musketmen & knights & 5% bombard only to frigates ).

The jungle change has been good where it is IMO as the AI doesnt expoit the very minor flaw in it & unless you tell your worker to do it, then u cant exploit it either. Its now perfect but before it was good enuff. As far as friagtes, Im happy to report that at 5% the AI doesnt seem to mass flood me with pointless city attacks/fishing boat attacks nearly as much
& doesnt seem to produce nearly as many as you also expereinced. My only real problem I guess has been the major diplomacy flaw which I mentioned in a very early post. However the issue has started being addressed as of last week or so & when signficant progress is made, Ill get you a link so you can look it over if interested. & the only other one Ive commented on is the seafood resource problem & I even stated ina post if you could just tell me what was edited ( which youve done ) because asking for a change when it doesnt seem to bother ne1 else to much seemed like to much to ask for to me.

Dearmad
" "turns are going by too fast"? I'm not sure what that means. "

Simply means like 5-10 or so years or going by per turn in 1600's & the world seems a lil behind on research. Just read turns per year starts to slow up soon so Im not to worried now.

Im really liking New Balance Speed more than I thought i would. Will try getting an epic speed game going later 2nite as I want my game as long as possible & so ppl can know what to expect before getting to in2.

EDIT : Im liking the idea of the ICBM/Manhattan Project change. Also liking the Lab & extra engineer earlier change.

Immacolata. lol @ Horrible Block of Doom. Sorry about the eyesore
 
Subaru? Have you heard of the tags QUOTE and /QUOTE? No? Well it is simple. You put [ quote ] in front of the block of text you quote, and you put [ /quote ] at the end. Of course without the blank spaces, but I have to include them or it turns them into tags.
Then the text looks like this and its really nice to read
unlike that HORRIBLE BLOCK OF DOOM you have up there. Real painful to read.

If you are real nitpicky you can even do this [ quote= Dearmad] and it reads like this

Dearmad said:
I didn't write that. Stop making quotes up!


Anyways. Am having the most interesting game right now. Terra map, huge with 13 civs on. I think a terra map with 13 civs is too much. But anyways, I begin as Mongols. I do a quick land grab and secure 4 cities. But I have no copper! Daym. So I decided to play my aggressive mongol cards and amass a huge army of chariots. I wage war on my northern neighbour, France, and have it eliminated around 1500 BC ^_^

Then I beeline for iron. GASP! I have no iron either! And it seems theres none to be had around. Catherina, my russki neighbour, has none of that either. My now new northern english - nothing. Turns out the nearest ressource is like 20 turns away in viking lands. Panic! The whole Southwestern part of the continent has no metal ! ! ! ! !

At last I find iron at the heart of the persian empire, by Persepolis none the less. So I play my Keshik UU card and start gobbling up Persian lands. Around 800 AD I finally get my iron! Luckily my metal starved neighbours didn't build a lot of spearmen, or I would have been in bad shape. I managed to solve the problem with copious amounts of catapults and keshiks.

Interesting game so far. Im not even in the Medieval yet, since my warmongering has left my research floundering. I hope I can get some peace now that I eliminated Cyrus, too. My economy is in the red, constantly, only the gold from conquests keeps me afloat. Luckily I got the Great Lighthouse from Cyrus. That will help fill my coffers.

Oh, btw. I found another pigs in jugle tile. Guess its not a fluke.
 
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