[Mod] True Culture Location and Territory Naming for the Giant Earth Map

[FoxFox]

Thanks for the replies Gedemon. Great to hear more about your plans for this mod and your design philosophy in general!

Side note, the "nomadCultures" table in my code is just a helper to ID the game's Cultures that can't build city (so they can unlock other Culture without requiring a city on that Territory), it doesn't have other effects

EDIT: Ah, I realise I read that wrong. I though nomadCultures did not require a city to unlock, just an outpost!

(That's how intended it! I feel some other cultures besides the Huns and Mongols should have this ability as well, for example the Franks, English (Anglo-Saxons) and Teutons (Saxons) all were non-urbanised, tribal societies in the very early middle ages. The Byzantines in contrast were already an urban society by that time, as they were the direct successors to the Romans.)

"noCapitalTerritory" actually means the Culture can be picked by multiple Empires, could you precise how you'd like to expand its use ?

The small list forces most cultures to start with just a single territory. But the "noCapitalTerritory" have more territories, since you can't very well have multiple Empires pick that culture if they only have a single core territory. So you want them to have several territories. The downside with the "small" list then is that if you own all these territories, you inherit much more territories then with the "normal" cultures, giving them an unfair advantage. So unless it's possible to let them only inherit a single territory from the list, for the small list it would be better/more fair to give them just a few territories too.

While if there are 2 list I can use one for unlocking/keeping and one for stability bonus/penalties, I don't plan to use 1 for unlocking (large) and one for keeping (smaller), I don't see how to handle the cases where you unlock from the large list without having territories from the small list.

I'm working on the large list! I can imagine these scenarios:

- small list determines starting territory, large list determines stability bonus/penalties

- large list determines both

- additionally, the large list could also determine which territories you can keep after transcending. E.g. you can conquer India with the Harappans, but if you decide to transcend rather than become the Mauryans, you will lose some territories and the Mauryans will spawn in the Ganges territory.

The nice features of having 2 lists is that it would allow very different gameplay types by setting options and not that much lines of code (except for the relation with Stability, but I already plan to do that)

Working on it!

That would kind of break the TCL concept. But I have other possible plans for "obsolete" Cultures.

In my mind, it would represent how Egypt survived as a political entity until Roman times, but by then it had essentially become a Hellenic (Greek) state rather than being a continuation of the Ancient Egyptian Kingdoms. But it was just a thought, the main point is that "obsolete" Cultures are going to be addressed, that's great news!

If I start implementing economic features from my civ6 overhaul, this would not be an issue as Iron would stockpile from simply working some tiles, deposit just being "boost" for a strategic resource. (I'm still testing the water here, I can't say yet if HK is the platform I want to mod on the next few years, but it looks good)

...

Like forcing placements adjacent to the main district (and harbors) until later techs.

...

Agree to, my next plan when the above is coded is to keep only the core territory of the previous Culture to the new spanned Empire, which mean moving from Mycenaeans to Greece would not spawn a new major Empire (as the core would not be free for it), but minor Factions on the outside territories, 1 per city with an average life span, and one for territories without city with a low life span.

...

Your move from Mycenaeans to Celts would result in the Mycenaeans becoming a Major empire that could evolve into Greece, Italy becoming a minor who could evolve into Romans.

These things sound great!

I'd like to see the log from a change then, mine showed no loss of the calculated compensation.

Maybe with a screen of the progress bar of the next chosen techs, and its cost.

Also maybe the compensations need separate factors for science, influence and production.

Sure, I'll try and get you those the next time I transition. From what I remember, typically I unlock a single tech, but I'm not sure about how much Science is left, if any. Maybe the real problem is that by Early Modern, tech cost is so high that if you transition to a much smaller empire, it takes a while (and requires some expansion) to get Science production back to reasonable levels. So maybe the aim should be to give 2-3 techs on culture switch, or even just unlock all previous era techs.

My experience is that Money, Influence and Production give very big boosts to jump-start the new culture, while the single tech bonus can't help prevent a feeling of technological stagnation. The production bonus is maybe on the high end even, as from the example where I was able to construct 3 Wonders in a row.

too complex. let me know how it feels with AOM's mod

That's great news, I was using his mod all the time, but I was afraid it might clash with this one. I'll use it in the next run and let you know.

I don't know if there is a way to prevent Semiramis from getting picked as an Empire leader. He has the annoying trait that he will never switch cultures.

 

[FoxFox]

It makes me think of the Phoenicians who in the ancient era seem to have no chance of making it to Andalusia themselves. Maybe the Phoenicians just need to start out with embarking.

Yeah, this something that really bothers me. I'm planning to look into this once the modding tools are released, but I have little modding experience, so I kind of hope someone will beat me to it

Yes, this is a problem I noted from the mod.io build. Transcendent Nubian Africa was an issue. Would support checks and break-ups on transcending cultures.

Well, this great mod by AOM improves AI culture picks and if I understand correctly, it works with TSL.

 

[FoxFox]

Here's an update on the culture-territories lists. I'd love to hear some feedback! In the meantime, I'll start on getting these into code format.

The basics:
- There are two lists, a "core territories" list and a "maximum expansion" list.
- These lists offer two gameplay options. The core list means that in most cases the new culture inherits only a single territory from the previous culture. With the maximum expansion list, the new culture inherits all territories it historically controlled, if they are owned by the previous culture.
- For example: As the Mycenaeans you conquer all of Europe and the Mediterranean coast of Asia and Africa. Then you switch to the Romans. With the "core" option, you only inherit the territory that historically contained Rome and you will have to conquer the territories of the historical Roman Empire from there. With the "max" option, you inherit all the territories of the historical Roman Empire you controlled as the Mycenaeans.
- The "max" list can also serve as a reference list for potential future additions to the mod to give rewards/penalties based on whether territories are within the historical boundaries of the culture.

Some general remarks:
- Each culture starts with 1 or more "Core" territories. The first territory on the list is also the capital territory. Whether you choose the "core" or "max" option, for most cultures you must own the capital territory to be able to switch to that culture.
- As an exception to this rule, some cultures are marked as "noCapitalTerritory". For these cultures, it is enough to own any of the listed territories. Consequently, several empires may meet the criteria to switch to such cultures and multiple empires can adopt this culture concurrently. These are cultures that are not strongly associated with a single nation-state or empire, but historically had several distinct, independent nations.
- Some cultures are marked as "nomadCultures". These can switch to a new culture even if they only own an outpost (rather than a city or an attached territory) for the new culture.
- Some cultures have multiple core territories listed, but are not "noCapitalTerritory"-cultures. These cultures can inherit multiple territories, even with the "core" option. This is meant to reflect historical events. For example, the Byzantines can inherit several territories, since historically they were a continuation of the (Eastern) Roman Empire. They did not start from scratch with only their capital Constantinople.

Note on noCapitalTerritory-cultures:

While many cultures in the "core" list have only a single starting territory, "noCapitalTerritory"-cultures clearly must have multiple territories, otherwise it won't be possible for multiple empires to switch to these cultures. But that would give these cultures an unfair advantage and it also goes against the thematic idea. Those are supposed to be cultures that are associated with multiple independent nations, yet with the "core" option it would be easier for such cultures to inherit a large empire after switching cultures. To counter this, I tried to space out the core territories of these cultures. With the "core" option, this should make it somewhat harder to conquer all these territories. And even if you do, you will not inherit a single, continuous land mass, but you will end up with several unconnected territories.

For ease of reading, I have combined both lists below and broken them up in chunks for each era.

Ancient

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era1_Phoenicia
 //noCapitalTerritory (independent city states)
 //Core territories
 - Syria // True true starting location
 - Numidia // Carthage TSL
 //Max expansion
 - Marocum
 - Libya
 - Andalusia
 - Italia Suburbicaria
 - Sardinia

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_EgyptianKingdom
 //Core territory
 - Aegyptus
 //Max expansion
 - Sudania
 - Syria

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_HittiteEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Cappadocia
 //Max expansion
 - Lydia
 - Syria

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_Babylon
 //Core territory
 - Mesopotamia
 //Max expansion
 - Assyria
 - Syria
 - Hidiazum
 - Persia

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_Assyria
 //Core territory
 - Assyria
 //Max expansion
 - Syria
 - Mesopotamia
 - Aegyptus
 - Cappadocia
 - Persia
 - Transcaucasia

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_HarappanCivilization
 //Core territory
 - Indus

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_MycenaeanCivilization
 //noCapitalTerritory (independent city states)
 //Core territories
 - Graecia
 - Lydia
 //Max expansion
 - Thracia

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_Nubia
 //Core territory
 - Sudania
 //Max expansion
 - Aegyptus

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_ZhouChina
 //Core territory
 - Flumen Flavum
 //Max expansion
 - Planum Sinense

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_OlmecCivilization
 //Core territory
 - Yucatania

Classical

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_RomanEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Italia Suburbicaria
 //Max expansion
 - Italia Annonaria
 - Sardinia
 - Occitania
 - Neustria
 - Batavia
 - Britannia
 - Aragonia
 - Castella
 - Andalusia
 - Illyria
 - Danubia
 - Graecia
 - Thracia
 - Dacia
 - Lydia
 - Cappadocia
 - Transcaucasia
 - Assyria
 - Mesopotamia
 - Syria
 - Hidiazum
 - Aegyptus
 - Libya
 - Numidia
 - Marocum

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_Persia
 //Core territory
 - Persia
 //Max expansion
 - Persia
 - Media
 - Gedrosia
 - Afgania
 - Parthia
 - Chorasmia
 - Indus
 - Mesopotamia
 - Assyria
 - Transcaucasia
 - Arabia
 - Hidiazum
 - Syria
 - Aegyptus
 - Libya
 - Cappadocia
 - Lydia
 - Thracia

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_MayaCivilization
 //Note, for gameplay purposes it may be more interesting to include the Yucatan peninsula in the Guatemala territory, so Mayans and Olmecs have different starting territories
 //Core territory
 - Yucatania
 Culture : Civilization_Era2_MauryaEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Ganges
 //Max expansion
 - Bengala
 - Indus
 - Maharastra
 - Odisa
 - Dravidia

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_Huns
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
 //taking a broad interpretation of the Huns that includes Xiongnu and Hephtalites (White Huns)
 //Core territories
 - Mongolia Citerior //Ancient Xiongnu (200 BC)
 - Afgania //Hephtalites based in Kunduz
 - Kazachia //Later Xiongnu (200 AD)
 - Ucraina //Huns entered European history after driving the Goths and Alans from the Pontic steppe and settling there
 //Max expansion
 - Voronegia //Suspected homeland before invasion of Europe
 - Orenburgum //Suspected homeland before invasion of Europe
 - Dacia //Attila
 - Danubia //Attila
 - Mongolia Ulterior //Xiongnu (200 BC)
 - Desertum Gobium //Xiongnu (after 200 BC)
 - Chorasmia //Hephthalites (White Huns)
 - Transoxiana //Hephthalites (White Huns)
 - Parthia //Hephthalites (White Huns)
 - Tarim //Hephthalites (White Huns)
 - Indus //Hephthalites (White Huns)
 - Ciscaucasia //North Caucasian Huns

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_Goths
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
 //noCapitalTerritory: several independent tribes and later kingdoms
 //Core territories
 - Polonia //Location of ingame first city
 - Suecia //Thought to be the original homeland of the Goths
 - Dacia //Visigoths around 300 AD
 //Also cores?
 - Italia Annonaria //Capital of Ostrogoth kingdoms
 - Castella //Toledo, second capital of Visigoth kingdom
 //Max expansion
 - Ucraina
 - Thracia //Visigoths (400 AD)
 - Andalusia //Visigothic kingdom
 - Aragonia //Visigothic kingdom
 - Occitania //Visigothic kingdom
 - Italia Annonaria //Ostrogothic kingdom
 - Italia Suburbicaria //Ostrogothic kingdom
 - Illyria //Ostrogothic kingdom

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_CelticCivilization
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
 //noCapitalTerritory: several different cultural and linguistic groups with independent tribes
 //Core territories
 - Danubia //Site of the Celtic core lands (Hallstatt culture)
 - Occitania //Gauls, location of ingame first city
 - Britannia //Britons
 - Hibernia //Irish/Scoti
 - Castella //Celtiberians
 - Batavia //Belgae
 //Also core?
 - Lydia //Galatian Gauls
 //Max expansion
 - Germania //Southern Germany = site of Celtic core lands (La Tene culture)
 - Neustria //Gauls
 - Italia Annonaria //Cisalpine Gauls
 - Caledonia //Picts

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_Carthage
 //Core territory
 - Numidia
 //Max expansion
 - Marocum
 - Libya
 - Sardinia
 - Andalusia
 - Aragonia

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_AncientGreece
 //noCapitalTerritory (independent city states)
 //Core territories
 - Graecia
 - Lydia
 //Also core?
 - Thracia
 //Max expansion
 //Archaic Greek colonies, mostly just settlements along coastline
 - Dacia
 - Ucraina
 - Italia Suburbicaria //Magna Graecia
 - Occitania
 - Aragonia
 - Sardinia
 - Libya
 //Alexander the Great and Diadochi
 - Cappadocia
 - Syria
 - Aegyptus
 - Assyria
 - Mesopotamia
 - Persia
 - Media
 - Gedrosia
 - Afgania
 - Indus
 - Parthia
 - Transoxiana

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_AksumiteEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Abyssinia
 //Max expansion
 - Hidiazum

Medieval

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_Vikings
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
 //noCapitalTerritory (independent tribes and kingdoms)
 //Core territories
 - Suecia
 - Finmarchia //Norvegia would be better, but is too easy to reach from Suecia
 //Also core?
 - Islandia
 - Novogardia //Varangians
 - Britannia //Danelaw
 - Neustria //Normans
 //Max expansion
 - Norvegia
 - Baltica
 - Polonia //Prus
 - Moscovia
 - Ucraina
 - Caledonia //islands mostly
 - Hibernia //Dubliners
 - Italia Suburbicaria //Sicily
 - Numidia
 - Groenlandia
 - Terra Nova //Vinland, though there was no real permanent settlement

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_UmayyadCaliphate
 //Core territory
 - Syria
 //Max expansion
 - Assyria
 - Hidiazum
 - Arabia
 - Mesopotamia
 - Transcaucasia
 - Persia
 - Media
 - Parthia
 - Transoxiana
 - Gedrosia
 - Afgania
 - Indus
 - Aegyptus
 - Libya
 - Numidia
 - Sahara
 - Marocum
 - Andalusia
 - Castella
 - Aragonia
 - Sardinia //Baleares only
 - Occitania //Some coastline near the Pyrenees

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_MongolEmpire
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
 //noCapitalTerritory: several different cultural and linguistic groups with independent tribes
 //Core territories
 - Mongolia Ulterior //Mongolian heartland
 - Planum Sinense //Beijing, capital of the Yuan dynasty
 - Transcaucasia //Maragheh, capital of the Ilkhanate
 - Kazachia //Chagatai Khanate
 - Voronegia //Golden Horde
 //Max expansion
 - Mongolia Citerior
 - Transbaicalia
 - Cisbaicalia
 - Manchuria
 - Territorium Maritimum
 - Corea
 - Planum Sinense
 - Flumen Flavum
 - Kiangnanum
 - Sichuan
 - Flumen Margaritarum
 - Vietnamia
 - Birmania
 - Tibetum
 - Amdo
 - Desertum Gobium
 - Altai
 - Crasnoiarium
 - Tomium
 - Omium
 - Tobolium
 - Permia
 - Orenburgum
 - Casanum
 - Moscovia
 - Novogardia
 - Ucraina
 - Ciscaucasia
 - Chorasmia
 - Kazachia
 - Tarim
 - Casmiria
 - Transoxiana
 - Parthia
 - Afgania
 - Indus
 - Gedrosia
 - Media
 - Persia
 - Transcaucasia
 - Assyria
 - Mesopotamia
 - Cappadocia
 - Lydia
 - Dacia
 Culture : Civilization_Era3_MedievalEngland
 //Core territory
 - Britannia
 //Max expansion
 - Caledonia
 - Hibernia
 - Occitania //Treaty of Bretigny, 14th century, gave England control over about half of southern France
 - Neustria //Under Henry V, 15th century, England controlled northern France, including Paris

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_KhmerEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Cambosia
 //Max expansion
 - Vietnamia
 - Thailandia

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_HolyRomanEmpire
 // Interpreted as both Holy Roman Empire (starting as Regnum Teutonicum: German Kingdom) and the Teutonic Order
 //Core territory
 - Germania
 //Max expansion
 - Polonia //Never fully occupied, but large parts of it were
 - Danubia
 - Italia Annonaria
 - Batavia
 - Baltica // Teutonic order

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_GhanaEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Mauretania
 //Max expansion
 - Malia

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_FrankishKingdom
 //Interpreted as Carolingian Empire and the later Frankish kingdom
 //Core territory
 - Neustria
 //Max expansion
 - Occidentalis
 - Batavia
 - Germania
 - Italia Annonaria
 - Illyria

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_Byzantium
 //Core territories, based on territory around 480 AD
 - Thracia
 - Graecia
 - Lydia
 - Cappadocia
 - Syria
 - Aegyptus
 - Libya
 //Max expansion
 - Illyria
 - Italia Annonaria
 - Italia Suburbicaria
 - Sardinia
 - Numidia
 - Marocum
 - Andalusia

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_AztecEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Mexicum
 //Max expansion
 - Yucatania

Early modern

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era4_VenetianRepublic
 //Core territory
 - Italia Annonaria
 //Max expansion
 - Illyria
 - Graecia

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_TokugawaShogunate
 //noCapitalTerritory (to represent the Sengoku period of civil war before the Edo period)
 //Core territories
 - Iaponia Boreales
 - Iaponia Australes
 - Esonia
 //Max expansion
 - Alpes Iaponicae

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_Spain
 //Core territory
 - Castella
 //Max expansion
 - Aragonia
 - Andalusia
 - Italia Suburbicaria
 - Batavia
 - Sardinia
 - Marocum
 - Mauretania
 - Philippinae
 - Mare Caribaeum
 - Florida
 - Mississippia
 - Texia
 - Magnae Planities
 - Dacota
 - Nivata
 - California
 - Chihuahua
 - Mexicum
 - Yucatania
 - Guatemala
 - Columbia
 - Venetiola
 - Peruvia
 - Atacama
 - Pantanal
 - Flumen Argenteum
 - Chilia
 - Paragonia
 - Terra Ignium
 - Canariae Insulae
 - Formosa

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_PolishKingdom
 //Core territory
 - Polonia
 //Max expansion
 - Baltica
 - Ucraina
 Culture : Civilization_Era4_OttomanEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Lydia
 //Max expansion
 - Cappadocia
 - Assyria
 - Mesopotamia
 - Transcaucasia
 - Syria
 - Hidiazum
 - Aegyptus
 - Libya
 - Numidia
 - Thracia
 - Graecia
 - Dacia
 - Illyria
 - Ucraina

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_MughalEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Ganges
 //Max expansion
 - Afgania
 - Indus
 - Casmiria
 - Maharastra
 - Odisa
 - Dravidia
 - Bengala

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_MingChina
 //Core territory
 - Kiangnanum
 //Max expansion
 - Planum Sinense
 - Flumen Flavum
 - Flumen Margaritarum
 - Sichuan
 - Manchuria
 - Hainania

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_JoseonKorea
 //Core territory
 - Corea

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_IroquoisConfederacy
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without needing a city
 //Core territory
 - Lacus Magni
 //Max expansion
 - Massachusetta
 - Canada

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_Holland
 //Core territory
 - Batavia
 //Max expansion
 - Formosa
 - Guiana
 - Massachusetta
 - Antillae
 - Caatinga
 - Cape
 - Dravidia
 - SriLanca
 - Sumatra
 - Iava
 - Borneum
 - Celebis
 - Papua

Industrial

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_ZuluKingdom
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without needing a city
 //Core territory
 - Cape

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_Siam
 //Core territory
 - Thailandia
 //Max expansion
 - Cambosia
 - Malaesia

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_RussianEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Moscovia //starting as Grand Duchy of Moscow
 //Also core for early Tsardom Russia?
 - Novogardia
 - Biarma
 - Casanum
 - Nenetsia
 - Permia
 //Max expansion
 - Finnia
 - Kola
 - Nova Zembla
 - Orenburgum
 - Voronegia
 - Ciscaucasia
 - Transcaucasia
 - Media
 - Parthia
 - Chorasmia
 - Transoxiana
 - Kazachia
 - Iamalia
 - Omium
 - Tobolium
 - Altai
 - Crasnoiarium
 - Iamalia
 - Ienisea
 - Taimyr
 - Tungusca
 - Cisbaicalia
 - Transbaicalia
 - Chatanga
 - Lena
 - Iana
 - Amur
 - Territorium Maritimum
 - Manchuria
 - Magadanum
 - Colyma
 - Tschucoticus
 - Camtschatca
 - Mare Beringianum
 - Alasca
 - Kenai
 - Insulae Aleutiae
 Culture : Civilization_Era5_Mexico
 //Core territory
 - Mexicum
 //Max expansion
 - Yucatania
 - Guatemala
 - Chihuahua
 - California
 - Nivata
 - Magnae Planities
 - Texia

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_Italy
 //Core territory
 - Italia Suburbicaria
 // Max expansion
 - Italia Annonaria
 - Sardinia
 - Libya
 - Abyssinia
 - Somalia

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_Germany
 //Core territory
 - Germania
 //Max expansion
 - Polonia
 - Baltica
 - Cammarunia
 - Naimbia
 - Kenia
 - Papua
 - Insulae Salomanis
 - Insulae Marsaliensis
 - Insulae Marianae

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_FrenchRepublic
 //Core territories
 - Neustria
 - Occitania
 //Max expansion
 - Sardinia //Corsica really
 - Terra Nova
 - Canada
 - Ungava
 - Laboratoria
 - Keewatin
 - Lacus Magni
 - Dacota
 - Magnae Planities
 - Mississippia
 - Guiana
 - Marocum
 - Numidia
 - Sahara
 - Mauretania
 - Malia
 - Guinea
 - Nigritania
 - Tzadia
 - Ngbandia
 - Cammarunia
 - Madagascaria
 - Syria
 - Odisa
 - Dravidia
 - Vietnamia
 - Cambosia
 - Melanesia
 - Insulae Mascarene
 - Insulae Atlanticae Australis

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_BritishEmpire
 //Core territories
 - Britannia
 - Caledonia
 - Hibernia
 //Max expansion
 - Terra Nova
 - Canada
 - Ungava
 - Laboratoria
 - Keewatin
 - Nunavut
 - Kitlineq
 - Dene
 - Athabasca
 - Saskatchewan
 - Columbia Britannica
 - Haida Gwaii
 - Guiana
 - Massachusetta
 - Carolinae
 - Florida
 - Mare Caribaeum
 - Antillae
 - Insulae Atlanticae Australis
 - Guinea
 - Beninum
 - Naimbia
 - Cape
 - Zimbabua
 - Zambia
 - Kenia
 - Abyssinia
 - Somalia
 - Insulae Mascarene
 - Sudania
 - Aegyptus
 - Syria
 - Mesopotamia
 - Arabia
 - Socotra
 - Indus
 - Ganges
 - Maharastra
 - Odisa
 - Dravidia
 - SriLanca
 - Bengala
 - Malaesia
 - Andamamenses
 - Borneum
 - Papua
 - Insulae Salomanis
 - Melanesia
 - Tuvalu
 - Samoa
 - Cambria Australis
 - Australia Occidentalis
 - Terra Reginae
 - Australia Septentrionalis
 - Australia Australis
 - Tasmania
 - Te Ika-a-Maui
 - Te Waipounamu

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_AustriaHungary
 //Core territories
 - Danubia
 - Illyria

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_AfsharidPersia
 //Core territories, based on the state of the Persian Empire during the decline of the Savafid dynasty
 - Persia
 - Media
 - Gedrosia
 //Max expansion
 - Mesopotamia
 - Transcaucasia
 - Afgania
 - Parthia
 - Transoxiana
 - Indus

Contemporary

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_USSR
 //Core territories, based on the area initially under Bolshevik control after the revolution
 - Moscovia
 - Novogardia
 - Voronegia
 - Ciscaucasia
 //Max expansion
 - Biarma
 - Casanum
 - Nenetsia
 - Permia
 - Kola
 - Nova Zembla
 - Orenburgum
 - Parthia
 - Chorasmia
 - Transoxiana
 - Kazachia
 - Iamalia
 - Omium
 - Tobolium
 - Altai
 - Crasnoiarium
 - Iamalia
 - Ienisea
 - Taimyr
 - Tungusca
 - Cisbaicalia
 - Transbaicalia
 - Chatanga
 - Lena
 - Iana
 - Amur
 - Territorium Maritimum
 - Magadanum
 - Colyma
 - Tschucoticus
 - Camtschatca
 - Mare Beringianum

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_USA
 //Core territories, 13 Colonies
 - Massachusetta
 - Carolinae
 //Max expansion
 - Lacus Magni
 - Dacota
 - Magnae Planities
 - Mississippia
 - Florida
 - Texia
 - Nivata
 - California
 - Oregonia
 - Alasca
 - Kenai
 - Insulae Aleutiae
 - Hawaii
 - Philippinae
 - Melanesia
 - Antillae //Puerto Rico

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_Turkey
 //Core territories, under control after partitioning of Ottoman Empire
 - Lydia
 - Cappadocia
 //Max expansion
 - Thracia

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_Sweden
 //Core territories
 - Suecia
 - Lapponia

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_Japan
 //Core territories
 - Iaponia Boreales
 - Iaponia Australes
 - Alpes Iaponicae
 - Esonia

 //Max expansion
 - Corea
 - Manchuria

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_India
 //Core territories
 - Ganges
 - Maharastra
 - Dravidia
 - Odisa

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_Egypt
 //Core territory
 - Aegyptus

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_China
 //Core territory, Communist base of power in 1946
 - Manchuria
 //Max expansion
 - Kiangnanum
 - Planum Sinense
 - Flumen Flavum
 - Flumen Margaritarum
 - Sichuan
 - Hainania
 - Tibetum
 - Amdo
 - Desertum Gobium
 - Mongolia Citerior
 - Tarim

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_Brazil
 //Core territory, area of control directly after independence
 - Brasilia Australis
 //Max expansion
 - Caatinga
 - Pantanal
 - Amazonia
 - Paraensis

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_Australia
 //Core territories
 - Cambria Australis
 - Australia Occidentalis
 - Terra Reginae
 - Australia Septentrionalis
 - Australia Australis
 - Tasmania

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Thanks for your new lists and formatting! I took a look and have a few categories of edits: questions (?), subtractions (-), and additions (+). For the question marks, I'm not totally clear on what merited the inclusion of these territories. The inclusion of Corea and Manchuria for Japanese expansion kind of made me go back and add some other cultures' conquests as well.

My main suggestions are to add Córdoba as a separate core territory for the Umayyads and to add Numidia (core) and Sardinia (expansion) to the Goths as a representation of the Vandals.

I would like to confirm the Russian core territory, but I'm not sure how to access just the map with territory names via the editor. If someone has tips on that, please share! Otherwise, I'll wait to play from the Urals slot.

Ancient

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_Phoenicia
 //Max expansion
 - Italia Suburbicaria // ?

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_Babylon
 //Max expansion
 - Hidiazum // ?

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_HarappanCivilization
 //Max expansion
 - Ganges // +
 - Maharastra // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era1_MycenaeanCivilization
 //noCapitalTerritory (independent city states)
 //Core territories
 - Lydia // ?
 //Max expansion
 - Thracia // ?

Classical

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_MayaCivilization
 //Note, for gameplay purposes it may be more interesting to include the Yucatan peninsula in the Guatemala territory, so Mayans and Olmecs have different starting territories
 //Core territory
 - Yucatania
 //Max expansion
 - Guatemala // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_MauryaEmpire
 //Max expansion
 - Dravidia // ?

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_Goths
 //Also cores? Yes
 - Italia Annonaria //Capital of Ostrogoth kingdoms
 - Castella //Toledo, second capital of Visigoth kingdom
 - Numidia // + Vandals
 //Max expansion
 - Sardinia // + Vandals

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_CelticCivilization
 //Max expansion
 - Lydia // + Galatian Gauls

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_AncientGreece
 //Max expansion
 - Thrace // Instead of core

 Culture : Civilization_Era2_AksumiteEmpire
 //Core territory
 - Abyssinia
 //Max expansion
 - Hidiazum

Medieval

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_Vikings
 //nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
 //noCapitalTerritory (independent tribes and kingdoms)
 //Core territories
 - Finmarchia // -
 - Islandia // -
 - Norvegia // + Despite gameplay considerations, from what I've read this is ultimately where the Viking Age began
 - Novogardia // + Varangians
 - Britannia // + Danelaw
 - Neustria // + Normans
 //Max expansion
 - Numidia // ?

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_UmayyadCaliphate
 //noCapitalTerritory: to represent distinct Baghdad/Córdoba caliphates
 //Core territory
 - Andalusia // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_HolyRomanEmpire
 //Max expansion
 - Neustria // +
 - Sardinia // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era3_FrankishKingdom
 //Max expansion
 - Illyria // ?

Early modern

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_Spain
 //Core territory
 - Aragonia // +
 //Max expansion
 - Aragonia // -

 Culture : Civilization_Era4_OttomanEmpire
 //Max expansion
 - Danubia // +
 - Sudania // +

Industrial

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_RussianEmpire
 //Max expansion
 - Baltica // +
 - Polonia // +
 - Ucraina // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_Germany
 //Max expansion
 - Batavia // +
 - Neustria // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_BritishEmpire
 //Max expansion
 - Abyssinia // ?

 Culture : Civilization_Era5_AustriaHungary
 //Max expansion
 - Dacia // +
 - Polonia // +
 - Thracia // +
 - Ucraina // +

Contemporary

Spoiler :

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_USSR
 //Max expansion
 - Ucraina // +
 //Eastern Bloc
 - Baltica // +
 - Dacia // +
 - Danubia // +
 - Illyria // +
 - Polonia // +
 - Thracia // +

 Culture : Civilization_Era6_India
 //Core territories
 - Bengala // +

 

[FoxFox]

Hey, thanks Saxo! I'll look into you suggestions and react to your questions later.

About this:

I would like to confirm the Russian core territory, but I'm not sure how to access just the map with territory names via the editor. If someone has tips on that, please share! Otherwise, I'll wait to play from the Urals slot.

I'm using AOM's remove Fog of War mod - he posted about it on this forum, but I could look up the link if you want.

But here's 2 screenshots that may be helpful:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Gedemon]

I would like to confirm the Russian core territory, but I'm not sure how to access just the map with territory names via the editor. If someone has tips on that, please share! Otherwise, I'll wait to play from the Urals slot.

for reference:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-giant-earth-map.672656/page-13#post-16169030

only change since is that one:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-giant-earth-map.672656/page-13#post-16171328

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Thank you guys so much!

I'm using AOM's remove Fog of War mod - he posted about it on this forum, but I could look up the link if you want.

The screenshot is super helpful. I would just add Kola to your list of core territories and call it a day (as it turns out, despite having territorial claims, it appears Russia had some trouble holding cities on the frontier, but your list largely avoids that problem).

As for the Fog of War mod, for whatever reason, the game wouldn't load Gedemon's earth maps with the mod when I first tried. I can try again at some point and see if it was some other factor I was overlooking. Thanks all the same for the suggestion. I'm glad we're both enjoying the mods!

for reference:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-giant-earth-map.672656/page-13#post-16169030

only change since is that one:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-giant-earth-map.672656/page-13#post-16171328

Thank you so much for the links! I almost need to bookmark several pages of the thread at this point. The original map with named territories is great.

 

[FoxFox]

Thanks again for all the thoughtful feedback, Saxo!

Most of your points are about things I was on the fence about myself, so it really helps.

I like your suggestion of adding Cordoba for the Umayyads and making the a noCapitalTerritory culture. It really solves the question on how to deal with their different centres of gravity at different times. It does mean that with the "Max expansion" option selected, the Umayyads can spawn in any of those territories, not just Cordoba or Damascus.

I also like adding the Vandals as part of the Gothic cultures, so I'll include their core and other territories.

On Japan: I generally avoided adding territories that were occupied only during a period of conflict, like the Napoleonic Wars and both WWs. Reading back, I think Korea was under Japanese rule for quite some time, starting before WW I. Adding Manchuria was a mistake, I may have misread something, but I'll remove it.

Reaction to other points in the spoilers:
EDIT: removed the CODE blocks because links don't work.

Ancient

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era1_Phoenicia
//Max expansion
- Italia Suburbicaria // ? They had two colonies on Sicily. Admittedly that's not much basis to give them the region. But one of those cities later became Palermo, so it's not nothing either. I'm fine with removing it from the lost though.

Culture : Civilization_Era1_Babylon
//Max expansion
- Hidiazum // ? Nabonidus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabonidus) is claimed to have conquered an area as far south as Medina. But it seems questionable how strong Babylonian influence was and how long it lasted, so I'm fine with removing it.

Culture : Civilization_Era1_HarappanCivilization
//Max expansion
- Ganges // +
- Maharastra // +
I'm not exactly consistent on when owning just a small part of a territory is enough to add it to the list. But I see your point and since I am pretty lenient with the Greeks, Phoenicians and Carthagians, it's only fair to add these too.

Culture : Civilization_Era1_MycenaeanCivilization
//noCapitalTerritory (independent city states)
//Core territories
- Lydia // ?
Going by maps on wikipedia, they settled some coastal territories of Lydia. Not much to give them a core there, I agree. It just feels right to have them as a noCapitalTerritory culture though. But that also goes for the Harappans and I didn't want to give them anything beyond Indus at first.

//Max expansion
- Thracia // ? Yeah, looking back I don't see any basis for this - I'll remove it.

Classical

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era2_MayaCivilization
//Note, for gameplay purposes it may be more interesting to include the Yucatan peninsula in the Guatemala territory, so Mayans and Olmecs have different starting territories
//Core territory
- Yucatania
//Max expansion
- Guatemala // + I'll add it

Culture : Civilization_Era2_MauryaEmpire
//Max expansion
- Dravidia // ?
Around 250 BC the empire extended to the south pretty far, I felt it was enough to give them Dravidia - if the Harappans get Ganges and Maharastra, then Maurya can get Dravidia I guess

Culture : Civilization_Era2_CelticCivilization
//Max expansion
- Lydia // + Galatian Gauls They were on the possible core list, but I agree.

Culture : Civilization_Era2_AncientGreece
//Max expansion
- Thrace // Instead of core - Added there

Medieval

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era3_Vikings
//nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
//noCapitalTerritory (independent tribes and kingdoms)
//Core territories
- Finmarchia // -
- Islandia // -
- Norvegia // + Despite gameplay considerations, from what I've read this is ultimately where the Viking Age began
FF: Well, if they get those additional cores in Novogardia etc, then having both Norvegia and Suecia is not so bad I guess

- Novogardia // + Varangians
- Britannia // + Danelaw
- Neustria // + Normans
I'm still on the fence about Britannia and Neustria, since these are also the cores for English and Franks. But it feels right/fair to recognise the impact of their presence in these regions.

//Max expansion
- Numidia // ?
Kingdom of Africa from Sicilian Normans - didn't last very long though

Culture : Civilization_Era3_HolyRomanEmpire
//Max expansion
- Neustria // +
- Sardinia // +
I was in doubt about these. I'll add them.

Culture : Civilization_Era3_FrankishKingdom
//Max expansion
- Illyria // ?
Based on the Avar March

Early modern

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era4_Spain
//Core territory
- Aragonia // +
//Max expansion
- Aragonia // -
Agreed

Culture : Civilization_Era4_OttomanEmpire
//Max expansion
- Danubia // +
- Sudania // +
Danubia was an oversight, I'm not sure about Sudania though. Why?

Industrial

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era5_RussianEmpire
//Max expansion
- Baltica // +
- Polonia // +
- Ucraina // +
Lol, how could I miss Ucraina and Baltica. Polonia is fair too I guess.

Culture : Civilization_Era5_Germany
//Max expansion
- Batavia // +
- Neustria // +
Not sure about these in the Industrial era - why?

Culture : Civilization_Era5_BritishEmpire
//Max expansion
- Abyssinia // ? That's Anglo-Egyptian Sudan

Culture : Civilization_Era5_AustriaHungary
//Max expansion
- Dacia // +
- Polonia // +
- Thracia // +
- Ucraina // +
I hesitated to add Dacia and Thracia, because Austria-Hungary didn't have access to the Black Sea. But I don't mind adding them
Not sure what the reason for Polonia and Ucraina is though.

Contemporary

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era6_USSR
//Max expansion
- Ucraina // + Lol, again, how did I miss this?
//Eastern Bloc
- Baltica // +
- Dacia // +
- Danubia // +
- Illyria // +
- Polonia // +
- Thracia // +
I assume most of these are because they were satellite states of the USSR? I haven't been exactly consistent in dealing with such territories.
I also considered suggesting the Soviets as a noCapitalTerritory and adding Warsaw Pact nations to the core territories.
I disagree with Illyria though, because of Tito.

Culture : Civilization_Era6_India
//Core territories
- Bengala // +
I considered it, but it feels wrong to just ignore the fact that Bangladesh is there, one of the most populous countries of the world. For the same reason I didn't want to give them Indus.
I am wondering if Casmiria should be added though.

 

[Gedemon]

Next alpha should be ready for the WE, code's updated for the patch.

I'd like to do a small pass on the map before as we can set the number of players now, no need for many versions, just 2: "old world only" or "a few new world" starts. But I've not started to summarize and check all the proposed changes...

There is also the tools that should be out tomorrow.

 

[Phor]

Culture : Civilization_Era5_AustriaHungary
//Max expansion
- Dacia // +
- Polonia // +
- Thracia // +
- Ucraina // +
I hesitated to add Dacia and Thracia, because Austria-Hungary didn't have access to the Black Sea. But I don't mind adding them
Not sure what the reason for Polonia and Ucraina is though.

Partitions of Poland maybe? The area of the "Austrian part" covered eastern Ucraina and Central+Southern Polonia until Napoleon took Central part of Polonia to form Duchy of Warsaw.

 

[FoxFox]

Partitions of Poland maybe? The area of the "Austrian part" covered eastern Ucraina and Central+Southern Polonia until Napoleon took Central part of Polonia to form Duchy of Warsaw.

Thanks! I had only considered the history of Austria-Hungary proper, but I suppose it's better to include the Austrian Empire that preceded it. In that case, maybe Northern Italy should be included as well.

I'd like to do a small pass on the map before as we can set the number of players now, no need for many versions, just 2: "old world only" or "a few new world" starts.

Anything you need help with?

 

[FoxFox]

Gedemon, others too, I'd like yo hear your opinion on some things.

The concept for the territory list is basically done. But some of the choices for the territory list go beyond simply pinpointing historical boundaries, so it really depends on how you want to handle those instances in the spirit of the TSL concept and what possibilities you see for coding.

First, a big issue is the matter of cultures that "move" around the map and existed at very different places at different times.

Few examples:

The Goths are thought to have originated from Sweden. They almost certainly settled in Poland later, around 200 BC. Over centuries they moved south and settled in Ukraine, around 150 AD. It's here that they became expert horsemen, which justifies their unique unit. Then around 370 AD the Huns invaded their territory, causing a chain of events that eventually led to them settling in and conquering parts of the Western Roman Empire in Spain, Southern France and Italy.

So we have several locations for the Goths: Sweden, Poland, Ukraine and surroundings and south-west Europe. It's justifiable to give them all this territory, but there was never a time in history when they occupied all of these lands at once.

The Umayyad Caliphate originated in Damascus and conquered a vast empire from the Indus to Spain. It eventually collapsed and was overtaken by other dynasties, except in Spain, where it remained an independent state with its distinct Andalusian culture for centuries.

Second, there are cultures that "seeded" successor states:

The Mongols created a vast empire that encompassed China, the Eurasian steppe, parts of India and Southeast Asia, most of the Middle East and parts of Eastern and Central Europe. The empire was later divided in four independent parts, that continued to play a significant role in history. Their empire included many Iranian and Turkic speaking peoples and many later cultures can be traced to the Mongolian conquests, notably the Ottomans, the Mughals and the later Persian dynasties. So, there are good reasons to include these successor states as core territories, even though the true, true starting location for the Mongols would just be the two Mongolian territories.

Same applies to the Greeks and the Vikings. Their TSL would be Greece and Scandinavia obviously. But there were significant independent Greek and Viking states later outside of Scandinavia.

Last, there is the issue of cultures that existed in the same territories during a single age.

For example, Britannia is obviously the core territory for the English. However, a significant part of it it was an independent Viking realm in the early Middle Ages. It was even part of a united Norwegian-English kingdom for a while. So there is evey reason to include it as a Viking territory. Problem is, if the Vikings spawn there, they effectively block the English from spawning. On solution is to make the English a noCapitalTerritory culture, so they can also spawn in Caledonia (as Northumbria). But with the maximum expansion option, this would also allow the English to spawn in Ireland or France, which is weird.

Same for the Greeks and Romans: The Greeks possessed significant parts of southern Italy, where the Romans should spawn. But the Romans conquered Greece, so becoming the Romans likely means the Greeks won't spawn.

So how do you feel about these things and what kind of (im)possibilities code-wise should I keep in mind?

 

[Gedemon]

I don't plan to code exceptions if that's your question, it's already at the complexity limit of what I can design.

About the design, I prefer the initial territory (Goths are in Suede, Poland, Ukraine in the current version) or the territory they stayed the longer, but I'd prefer to not have to answer users question like "why Goths spawned in Spain in my game ?" or "why Egypt has stolen Greece Culture ?"

I'm working on the large list! I can imagine these scenarios:

- small list determines starting territory, large list determines stability bonus/penalties

- large list determines both

- additionally, the large list could also determine which territories you can keep after transcending. E.g. you can conquer India with the Harappans, but if you decide to transcend rather than become the Mauryans, you will lose some territories and the Mauryans will spawn in the Ganges territory.

the list now also determine the result of a split, the new player taking over the old empire will only get the territory from the list of its culture (if there is a city in them, else it will be a minor faction with the old culture definition), the other cities/territories will be split between minor factions (culture based on territory/era if possible, or as a "rebel" faction)

edit: it's also used when a new major Empire spawn over a minor faction mid-game, and should be if I code something to spawn major Empires in empty territories.

also, small precision

EDIT: Ah, I realise I read that wrong. I though nomadCultures did not require a city to unlock, just an outpost!

(That's how intended it! I feel some other cultures besides the Huns and Mongols should have this ability as well, for example the Franks, English (Anglo-Saxons) and Teutons (Saxons) all were non-urbanised, tribal societies in the very early middle ages. The Byzantines in contrast were already an urban society by that time, as they were the direct successors to the Romans.)

I don't know yet how to make them not building cities. If you find it in the DB once the tools are out, let me know, I could check that and remove the hardcoded table, but this kind of change is beyond the scope of this mod anyway (but changing it in another mod would be taken into account if I don't use the hardcoded table)

Finally, I don't see an issue with unbalanced list of territories between cultures, if a player want a challenge he can chose so, if he want a walk in the park, let him do. My mods are not designed for competitive MP (but I do want them to be MP compatible)

 

[Gedemon]

Anything you need help with?

yep, I have a to do to check for the next version of the map
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-giant-earth-map.672656/page-15#post-16179729

 

[FoxFox]

I don't plan to code exceptions if that's your question, it's already at the complexity limit of what I can design.

Good to know. I was more thinking about mechanics like: Greece conquers the Persian Empire (Alexander the Great), but then their empire falls apart into several successor states (Diadochi).

About the design, I prefer the initial territory (Goths are in Suede, Poland, Ukraine in the current version) or the territory they stayed the longer, but I'd prefer to not have to answer users question like "why Goths spawned in Spain in my game ?" or "why Egypt has stolen Greece Culture ?"

I agree. TBH, having the Goths in Sweden is already a bit of a stretch. The evidence for their origin there is extremely thin. They were almost certainly in Poland, but their cavalry special unit refers to the period when they were in Ucraina, Dacia.

More generally, there's two concepts clashing here: the noCapitalTerritory-idea vs the Max expansion list. The Goths are a clear candidate to be a noCapitalTerritory culture. However, combined with the Max expansion-list, this means that they would in fact be able to spawn in Spain, which I agree would be awkward.

One way around this, is to ditch the noCapitalTerritory idea entirely. But I do like the idea and I prefer to make it work.

Another way is to ditch the Max expansion-list as an option for determining spawning points and only use it for other purposes. I wouldn't mind that, to me the core territory list provides the closest thing to the TSL experience.

A more complicated idea is to make the noCapitalTerritory list optional too. Then you can play:
- core territories only with noCapitalTerritory cultures enabled (which would be my preferred setup)
- core territories only without noCapitalTerritory cultures
- Max expansion territories with noCapitalTerritory cultures enabled (where Goths can spawn in Spain)
- Max expansion territories without noCapitalTerritory cultures (where you conquer the Roman Empire as the Mycenaeans and then inherit all those territories; but there won't be any duplicate cultures)

the list now also determine the result of a split, the new player taking over the old empire will only get the territory from the list of its culture (if there is a city in them, else it will be a minor faction with the old culture definition), the other cities/territories will be split between minor factions (culture based on territory/era if possible, or as a "rebel" faction)

edit: it's also used when a new major Empire spawn over a minor faction mid-game, and should be if I code something to spawn major Empires in empty territories.

Not sure if I understand - could you give an example of how this plays out?

Maybe related, one problem I still see is this:

Same for the Greeks and Romans: The Greeks possessed significant parts of southern Italy, where the Romans should spawn. But the Romans conquered Greece, so becoming the Romans likely means the Greeks won't spawn.

This is my main objection to using the Max expansion list. It's unreasonable to omit Greece from the Roman list, or to omit Southern Italy from the Greek list. How should this play out in your opinion?

I don't know yet how to make them not building cities. If you find it in the DB once the tools are out, let me know, I could check that and remove the hardcoded table, but this kind of change is beyond the scope of this mod anyway (but changing it in another mod would be taken into account if I don't use the hardcoded table)

I'm sorry, I'm not explaining it right. There is no additional coding involved. I don't mind if these cultures CAN and DO build cities. I just feel that it is thematically fitting if some cultures (Celts, Goths, Norse, Zulus) only require an outpost to switch to the next culture, just like the Huns and Mongols. Of course for the Huns and Mongols this mechanism is absolutely necessary, but I can see how it might apply to other cultures too, even if they don't strictly need it. That's just a suggestion though, it's nothing important or fundamental.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Thanks again for all the thoughtful feedback, Saxo!

Most of your points are about things I was on the fence about myself, so it really helps.

I like your suggestion of adding Cordoba for the Umayyads and making the a noCapitalTerritory culture. It really solves the question on how to deal with their different centres of gravity at different times. It does mean that with the "Max expansion" option selected, the Umayyads can spawn in any of those territories, not just Cordoba or Damascus.

I also like adding the Vandals as part of the Gothic cultures, so I'll include their core and other territories.

On Japan: I generally avoided adding territories that were occupied only during a period of conflict, like the Napoleonic Wars and both WWs. Reading back, I think Korea was under Japanese rule for quite some time, starting before WW I. Adding Manchuria was a mistake, I may have misread something, but I'll remove it.

Thank you for the clarifications! I found the Norman incursion into North Africa and the Avar March particularly interesting. Also glad to hone in on some of the grey areas for both of us.

I did notice through a recent play-through (rather than reading the list like I ought have) that the Vandals and at least the Ostrogoths are already in the game as independent people. This is not a problem, but would need to be addressed when implemented.

Good to know about the conquests. We can adopt some consistency to distinguish administration like colonies from occupation.

Ancient

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era1_Phoenicia
//Max expansion
- Italia Suburbicaria // ? Didn't know about Palermo. The more I read, the more it makes sense to include it for both Phoenicia and Carthage. I just dislike Slot 10 having it so easy in the early game!

Culture : Civilization_Era1_Babylon
//Max expansion
- Hidiazum // OK, let's remove it.

Culture : Civilization_Era1_MycenaeanCivilization
//noCapitalTerritory (independent city states)
//Core territories
- Lydia // ?
I'm happy to trade Lydia for expanded Harappa! My main gameplay concern is Slot 2 starting out with so many good choices.

Classical

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era2_MauryaEmpire
//Max expansion
- Dravidia // ? OK, forever known as part of the Harappa ransom--ha!

Culture : Civilization_Era2_CelticCivilization
//Max expansion
- Lydia // + Galatian Gauls They were on the possible core list, but I agree. (Yes, should have clarified I just moved them from core).

Medieval

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era3_Vikings
//nomadCultures: can switch culture without city
//noCapitalTerritory (independent tribes and kingdoms)
//Core territories
- Finmarchia // -
- Islandia // -
- Norvegia // + Despite gameplay considerations, from what I've read this is ultimately where the Viking Age began
FF: Well, if they get those additional cores in Novogardia etc, then having both Norvegia and Suecia is not so bad I guess

- Novogardia // + Varangians
- Britannia // + Danelaw
- Neustria // + Normans
I'm still on the fence about Britannia and Neustria, since these are also the cores for English and Franks. But it feels right/fair to recognise the impact of their presence in these regions.

Agreed in full, down to the reservations.

//Max expansion
- Numidia // ?
Kingdom of Africa from Sicilian Normans - didn't last very long though
Cool to learn about, but probably not enough for established rule, so I'd remove it.

Culture : Civilization_Era3_HolyRomanEmpire
//Max expansion
- Neustria // +
- Sardinia // +
I was in doubt about these. I'll add them.
Excellent!

Culture : Civilization_Era3_FrankishKingdom
//Max expansion
- Illyria // ?
Based on the Avar March Great! Let's keep it.

Early modern

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era4_OttomanEmpire
//Max expansion
- Danubia // +
- Sudania // +
Danubia was an oversight, I'm not sure about Sudania though. Why?
Egypt Eyalet

Industrial

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era5_RussianEmpire
//Max expansion
- Baltica // +
- Polonia // +
- Ucraina // +
Lol, how could I miss Ucraina and Baltica. Polonia is fair too I guess.
I was almost positive you had some Russo-beef--all things considered, Russian imperialism is still highly sensitive.

Culture : Civilization_Era5_Germany
//Max expansion
- Batavia // +
- Neustria // +
Not sure about these in the Industrial era - why?
I was thinking of WWI aggression, but retract them based on new conquest guideline.

Culture : Civilization_Era5_BritishEmpire
//Max expansion
- Abyssinia // ? That's Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
This seems on the border to me. I was aware of Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, but I didn't realize it spilled into the borders of the Abyssinia territory. On the side of the historical integrity of Ethiopia, I would limit both the British and the Ottomans to Sudania alone.

Culture : Civilization_Era5_AustriaHungary
//Max expansion
- Dacia // +
- Polonia // +
- Thracia // +
- Ucraina // +
I hesitated to add Dacia and Thracia, because Austria-Hungary didn't have access to the Black Sea. But I don't mind adding them
Not sure what the reason for Polonia and Ucraina is though.

Austro-Hungary is a bit of a loser in the drawing of territories on this map (as it was post-WWII). As wild as it sounds, all of those territories I suggested merely represent the regions of Hungary, Transylvania, and Galicia not included in Danubia.

Contemporary

Spoiler :

Culture : Civilization_Era6_USSR
//Max expansion
- Ucraina // + Lol, again, how did I miss this?
//Eastern Bloc
- Baltica // +
- Dacia // +
- Danubia // +
- Illyria // +
- Polonia // +
- Thracia // +
I assume most of these are because they were satellite states of the USSR? I haven't been exactly consistent in dealing with such territories.
I also considered suggesting the Soviets as a noCapitalTerritory and adding Warsaw Pact nations to the core territories.
I disagree with Illyria though, because of Tito.

I do like the idea of the Soviets as a noCapitalTerritory culture. As for Eastern Europe, yes, what brings them to mind is sustained Soviet influence over sovereignty from occupation through the end of the Cold War. But, we can let the Independent Reds take Illyria--no problem.

Culture : Civilization_Era6_India
//Core territories
- Bengala // +
I considered it, but it feels wrong to just ignore the fact that Bangladesh is there, one of the most populous countries of the world. For the same reason I didn't want to give them Indus.
I am wondering if Casmiria should be added though.

Totally agreed, no intention of infringing on Bangladesh's existence; however, compared to Bangladesh's 163 million, it seems India would have about 137 million people in the territory too. That would appear to be a case of two valid cores, to me. Likewise, but on a much smaller scale, Casmiria could be either a core or an expansion.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

About the design, I prefer the initial territory (Goths are in Suede, Poland, Ukraine in the current version) or the territory they stayed the longer, but I'd prefer to not have to answer users question like "why Goths spawned in Spain in my game ?" or "why Egypt has stolen Greece Culture ?"

Part of me thinks, "How great for that user to learn a bit about the Visigoths!" but I realize the burden of explaining would largely fall on you.

More generally, there's two concepts clashing here: the noCapitalTerritory-idea vs the Max expansion list. The Goths are a clear candidate to be a noCapitalTerritory culture. However, combined with the Max expansion-list, this means that they would in fact be able to spawn in Spain, which I agree would be awkward.

One way around this, is to ditch the noCapitalTerritory idea entirely. But I do like the idea and I prefer to make it work.

Another way is to ditch the Max expansion-list as an option for determining spawning points and only use it for other purposes. I wouldn't mind that, to me the core territory list provides the closest thing to the TSL experience.

Permit me to offer a temporary compromise to do with what you will:

Adopt new core territories list as the so-called base and take the max expansion list as a check on transcendence, i.e. if Umayyads colonize the new world but have not secured Castella to evolve into the Spanish (as may have happened to me recently) transcending should cut back the culture to its max expansion.

 

[Gedemon]

More generally, there's two concepts clashing here: the noCapitalTerritory-idea vs the Max expansion list. The Goths are a clear candidate to be a noCapitalTerritory culture. However, combined with the Max expansion-list, this means that they would in fact be able to spawn in Spain, which I agree would be awkward.

let's simply use "small" and "large" to design the lists, the large one doesn't need to be a "maximum expended territory" list.

A Culture that unlock on a capital position (one territory) can potentially have a "maximum expended territory" list, has it can't spawn anywhere else than the capital territory, but we may want to keep it smaller than real life expansion for Cultures that can unlock from multiple territories.

edit: the concept still being "true starting location", I use "TCL" because in classic TSL you choose the Civilization then the mod spawn you in its position, while here you start somewhere and then choose the culture based on the position

As I understood it, the idea was to have a smaller list to start with a smaller Empire and play to expand it, the current list being by comparaison the "large" list. We can make it larger, but IMO there is no need to go "full expansion" for everyone.

Not sure if I understand - could you give an example of how this plays out?

Spoiler Mycenaeans Empire :

Spoiler New Greek Empire :

There is no new Major Empire created in that case, as the Greek list override the Myceneans list, there was no Cities available for that Major Empire, but 2 minor factions were created:

• Etruscans in Italy, as they fit the global Era and the position (evolving earlier would have spawned a minor Phoenician here, later a minor Roman), and they may evolve into a Major Roman Empire after their half-life (ie 30 turns in that case, I'll tweak the lifespan later)
• Mycenaeans Rebels, to take over the "orphan" territories without city, agressive, without the ability to evolve into a full minor with a City, and a short lifespan

if no fitting minor definition would have been found, the city in Italy would have been given to a "peaceful" Mycenaeans Rebels faction, that could evolve later to Romans here.

This is my main objection to using the Max expansion list. It's unreasonable to omit Greece from the Roman list, or to omit Southern Italy from the Greek list. How should this play out in your opinion?

If you play with the "small list" option, that's not an issue.

In the case above, choosing Romans with the small list would have spawned a major Mycenaeans in Greece that could evolve in Greeks.

If I code something for spawning major out of rebellion, Greek could still spawn later with the large list if the stability is low in their capital territory.

I'm sorry, I'm not explaining it right. There is no additional coding involved. I don't mind if these cultures CAN and DO build cities. I just feel that it is thematically fitting if some cultures (Celts, Goths, Norse, Zulus) only require an outpost to switch to the next culture, just like the Huns and Mongols. Of course for the Huns and Mongols this mechanism is absolutely necessary, but I can see how it might apply to other cultures too, even if they don't strictly need it. That's just a suggestion though, it's nothing important or fundamental.

Yes, but the city option was created for the "keep territory" option, to prevent sniping for example Germany with an outpost as an African Culture, evolve into Germans and keep all Africa + isolated Germany, the table was added later as a bugfix. I get you want to make it a feature instead, but that nullify the first option intend.

 

[FoxFox]

let's simply use "small" and "large" to design the lists, the large one doesn't need to be a "maximum expended territory" list.

A Culture that unlock on a capital position (one territory) can potentially have a "maximum expended territory" list, has it can't spawn anywhere else than the capital territory, but we may want to keep it smaller than real life expansion for Cultures that can unlock from multiple territories.

As I understood it, the idea was to have a smaller list to start with a smaller Empire and play to expand it, the current list being by comparaison the "large" list. We can make it larger, but IMO there is no need to go "full expansion" for everyone.

I agree with the idea, but it's not that simple to come up with a "intermediate expansion" list that isn't too arbitrary. I prefer if the criteria for including territories are based on some underlying principle.

With that said, let's just try this small list first, next to the existing larger list.

In this list, the following cultures are considered "noCapitalTerritory":
- Phoenicians (not that it matters in the first era, but this way I got to add Syria as their homeland
- Huns
- Goths
- Celts
- Norsemen
- Mongols
- Edo Japanese

But in each case, the first territory on the list is the best TSL afaik, so it is safe to ignore this list.

One more note: The Olmecs only have Yucatan, so with multiple starting positions in the Americas you may want to add some, unless you are fine with them getting the fallback culture. I suggest Guatemala (45) and Mexicum (41).

Spoiler :

                   { "Civilization_Era1_Phoenicia",                new List<int>() { 190, 106 } }, // Carthage, Levant
                   { "Civilization_Era1_EgyptianKingdom",          new List<int>() { 128 } }, // Egypt
                   { "Civilization_Era1_HittiteEmpire",            new List<int>() { 118 } }, // Cappadocia
                   { "Civilization_Era1_Babylon",                  new List<int>() { 142 } }, // Mesopotamia
                   { "Civilization_Era1_Assyria",                  new List<int>() { 123 } }, // Assyria
                   { "Civilization_Era1_HarappanCivilization",     new List<int>() { 207 } }, // Pakistan
                   { "Civilization_Era1_MycenaeanCivilization",    new List<int>() { 101 } }, // Greece
                   { "Civilization_Era1_Nubia",                    new List<int>() { 233 } }, // Sudan
                   { "Civilization_Era1_ZhouChina",                new List<int>() { 163 } }, // Yellow River
                   { "Civilization_Era1_OlmecCivilization",        new List<int>() { 219 } }, // Yucatan
                   { "Civilization_Era2_RomanEmpire",              new List<int>() { 100 } }, // South Italy
                   { "Civilization_Era2_Persia",                   new List<int>() { 243 } }, // Persia
                   { "Civilization_Era2_MayaCivilization",         new List<int>() { 219 } }, // Yucatan
                   { "Civilization_Era2_MauryaEmpire",             new List<int>() { 147 } }, // North India
                   { "Civilization_Era2_Huns",                     new List<int>() { 226, 124, 149, 205, 206, 245, 230 } }, // Voronegia, Ciscaucasia, 3, 4, Kazachia, 6, 7
                   { "Civilization_Era2_Goths",                    new List<int>() { 117, 119, 103 } }, // Poland, Ukraine
                   { "Civilization_Era2_CelticCivilization",       new List<int>() { 104, 22, 24, 23, 21, 19, 96, 105 } }, // Danubia, Occitania, Neustria, Batavia, Britannia, Hibernia, Castella, Germania
                   { "Civilization_Era2_Carthage",                 new List<int>() { 190 } }, // Carthage
                   { "Civilization_Era2_AncientGreece",            new List<int>() { 101 } }, // Greece
                   { "Civilization_Era2_AksumiteEmpire",           new List<int>() { 132 } }, // Abyssinia
                   { "Civilization_Era3_Vikings",                  new List<int>() { 107, 191, 109 } }, // Norway, Sweden
                   { "Civilization_Era3_UmayyadCaliphate",         new List<int>() { 106 } }, // Syria
                   { "Civilization_Era3_MongolEmpire",             new List<int>() { 225, 240, 208, 187, 206 } }, // Mongolia, Gobi, Altai, Tarim, Kazachia
                   { "Civilization_Era3_MedievalEngland",          new List<int>() { 21 } }, // South England
                   { "Civilization_Era3_KhmerEmpire",              new List<int>() { 38 } }, // Cambodia
                   { "Civilization_Era3_HolyRomanEmpire",          new List<int>() { 105 } }, // Germany
                   { "Civilization_Era3_GhanaEmpire",              new List<int>() { 125  } }, // Mauretania
                   { "Civilization_Era3_FrankishKingdom",          new List<int>() { 24 } }, // North France
                   { "Civilization_Era3_Byzantium",                new List<int>() { 238, 101, 250, 118, 106, 128, 127 } }, // Thracia, Greece, Lydia, Cappadocia, Syria, Egypt, Libya
                   { "Civilization_Era3_AztecEmpire",              new List<int>() { 41 } }, // Mexica
                   { "Civilization_Era4_VenetianRepublic",         new List<int>() { 99 } }, // North Italy
                   { "Civilization_Era4_TokugawaShogunate",        new List<int>() { 29, 30, 165, 242 } }, // Japan
                   { "Civilization_Era4_Spain",                    new List<int>() { 96 } }, // Castella
                   { "Civilization_Era4_PolishKingdom",            new List<int>() { 117 } }, // Poland
                   { "Civilization_Era4_OttomanEmpire",            new List<int>() { 250 } }, // Lydia
                   { "Civilization_Era4_MughalEmpire",             new List<int>() { 147 } }, // North India
                   { "Civilization_Era4_MingChina",                new List<int>() { 241 } }, // Kiangnanum
                   { "Civilization_Era4_JoseonKorea",              new List<int>() { 159 } }, // Korea
                   { "Civilization_Era4_IroquoisConfederacy",      new List<int>() { 63 } }, // Great Lakes
                   { "Civilization_Era4_Holland",                  new List<int>() { 23 } }, // Holland
                   { "Civilization_Era5_ZuluKingdom",              new List<int>() { 136 } }, // South Africa
                   { "Civilization_Era5_Siam",                     new List<int>() { 168 } }, // Thailand
                   { "Civilization_Era5_RussianEmpire",            new List<int>() { 122, 116, 114, 189, 148, 110, 112 } }, // Moscow, Novogardia, Biarma, Casanum, Nenetsia, Permia, Kola
                   { "Civilization_Era5_Mexico",                   new List<int>() { 41 } }, // Mexica
                   { "Civilization_Era5_Italy",                    new List<int>() { 100, 99, 98 } }, // Italy, Sardinia
                   { "Civilization_Era5_Germany",                  new List<int>() { 105, 117 } }, // Germany, Poland
                   { "Civilization_Era5_FrenchRepublic",           new List<int>() { 24, 22 } }, // France
                   { "Civilization_Era5_BritishEmpire",            new List<int>() { 21, 20, 19 } }, // England, Scotland, Ireland
                   { "Civilization_Era5_AustriaHungary",           new List<int>() { 104, 102 } }, // Danubia, Illyria
                   { "Civilization_Era5_AfsharidPersia",           new List<int>() { 243, 144, 235 } }, // Persia, Media, Gedrosia
                   { "Civilization_Era6_USSR",                     new List<int>() { 122, 116, 226, 124 } }, // Moscow, Novogardia, Voronegia, Ciscaucasia
                   { "Civilization_Era6_USA",                      new List<int>() { 60, 61 } }, // Massachusetta, Carolinae
                   { "Civilization_Era6_Turkey",                   new List<int>() { 250, 118 } }, // Lydia, Cappadocia
                   { "Civilization_Era6_Sweden",                   new List<int>() { 109, 152 } }, // Suecia, Lapponia
                   { "Civilization_Era6_Japan",                    new List<int>() { 29, 30, 165, 242 } }, // Japan
                   { "Civilization_Era6_India",                    new List<int>() { 147, 145, 236, 237, 179, 231 } }, // India, Maharastra, Dravidia, Odisa, Casmiria, Bengala
                   { "Civilization_Era6_Egypt",                    new List<int>() { 128 } }, // Egypt
                   { "Civilization_Era6_China",                    new List<int>() { 229 } }, // Manchuria
                   { "Civilization_Era6_Brazil",                   new List<int>() { 54 } }, // Brasilia Australis
                   { "Civilization_Era6_Australia",                new List<int>() { 35, 31, 32, 33, 34, 39 } }  // Australia

Hope I got the coding right!

Yes, but the city option was created for the "keep territory" option, to prevent sniping for example Germany with an outpost as an African Culture, evolve into Germans and keep all Africa + isolated Germany, the table was added later as a bugfix. I get you want to make it a feature instead, but that nullify the first option intend.

Clear, never mind that then!

 

[Gedemon]

new alpha (should be last before "public release")

- update to game's patch [1.0.5.517]
- fully rewrite and clean the function to split Empires when evolving to a new Culture, one major Empire and a few minor factions may spawn, depending on the cities/territories lost and the faction/empires/global era.
- give starting armies to minor factions spawning when an Empire is split
- new option: allow minor Factions to evolve into major Empires (Patron at highest level start allied with the new Empire)
- new option: set if dead AI players can respawn when there are no free Empires left in the reserved pool
- new option: set the maximum width of the Empire icons on the top left panels
- tweak starting position following changes to the Giant Earth Map
- bug fix: do not re-use twice Sweden and Mongols start positions when spawning more than 10 players
- bug fix: cancel siege of cities that are going to change owner on an Empire split

edit:
last alpha
https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/gedemon-trueculturelocation-zip.613764/

should be used with this version of the map:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/giant-earth-map-v1-1-1-026-hmap-zip.613579/