[MODCOMP] Inquisition Mod

[Dom Pedro II]

I'd say that this would work very well with the Immigration mod... it could cause refugees to flee the city when an Inquisitor comes to town and starts wiping out their religion...

Because an Inquisition will produce mainly three things:

1) Death (those who refuse to convert)
2) Converts (those who don't refuse to convert)
3) Refugees (those who had enough sense to get going while the getting was good)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hmmm, I think a whole population point is a bit extreme. I know I suggested a short-term happiness or Health Penalty. I personally feel this would help simulate the purges that occured during an inquisition (remember that a whole population point usually represents tens to hundreds of thousands of people!)
Interesting historical note, though, is that Inquisitions were more successful at removing heretical sects of the State Religion than they were at removing non-State religions. Unfortunately without a proper representation of 'Heresy', we must content ourselves with this role for inquisitors . Kudos again to our resident Bot, TheLopez .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Grave]

Great ideas Grave. Currently the inquisitor unit is "killed" when performing the mission no matter if the mission succeeds or fails.

Ah, cool... didn't know that. I downloaded the this mod, but really haven't thoroughly explored it in-game yet... been busy merging it with other mods in the SDK.

As for lowering the population by one, what I can do is add it as a boolean tag, how does that sound?

Sounds fine to me... what ever works best for you!

Hmmm.... that sounds like a good idea. What I can do is make it so religions that aren't as well established have a higher chance of being converted to the state religion, religions that are well established would be harder to convert.

My thoughts exactly!

Actually Grave, religion removal isn't automatically successful. Religions that are more established in a city are harder to remove. What is considered a well established religion in a city and how does a religion become well established? Well a religion is considered very well established if it is in it the holy city for the religion. Or if a religion's buildings have been built in a city, then that religion is more established in a city than in a city with only the monastery for the religion.

That works out perfect then. Make sense to me to be able to convert religions that have less of a foothold. I mean, trying to convert people from Judaism, who live in the holy land of Israel... sounds kinda hard to do!

I hope all of this provided a more in-depth explaination on how removing religions works in the Inquisition Mod.

It definately does, for me anyway. Thanks for sharing that info with us!

It's amazing how far religion has come in Civ4 compared to the vanilla version... and how much further we can take it.

 

[Grave]

Hmmm, I think a whole population point is a bit extreme. I know I suggested a short-term happiness or Health Penalty. I personally feel this would help simulate the purges that occured during an inquisition (remember that a whole population point usually represents tens to hundreds of thousands of people!)
Interesting historical note, though, is that Inquisitions were more successful at removing heretical sects of the State Religion than they were at removing non-State religions. Unfortunately without a proper representation of 'Heresy', we must content ourselves with this role for inquisitors . Kudos again to our resident Bot, TheLopez .

Aussie_Lurker.

I kinda see your point there. But the reason I suggested a point of population loss is to act as a counter weight to removing a religion. If it was merely unhappiness or health penalty, that goes away in a few turns. Where as if you remove a point of population... sure, that point will grow back, but it will also hurt productivity in that city... makes you think twice before removing a religion from one of your cities. "Do I really want to do this right now?"

I say have one point of population decrease AND a few turns of unhappiness/health penalties.

It also acts as more of a hinderance to the AI civs you use it against. What if the Russians have a bigger army than you, and you can't wage conventional warfare? What can you do? Launch a religious war against them, by either "purging" their less established religions, or converting them to your State Religion, swinging diplomatic leverage to your favor. While you may not be able to beat them in a straight up war, you could wear down their cities enough so that being enemies with you will cost them.

That's why I suggested a population decrease.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

So, hang on, did I miss something in the testing of this mod? Can you in fact conduct these missions on enemy cities? For some reason I thought you could only do it to your OWN cities. Well, that makes things even MORE interesting!!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[TheLopez]

Yes, you should be able to...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Regarding the loss of a population point, as I said, inquisitions would not only kill people, but it would compel some people to flee. The first Jews to arrive in the New World, for example, were ones who were fleeing the Spanish Inquisition and they traveled to my home country of Brazil and set up shop there.

 

[OrionVeteran]

I have a game in which I produced 4 Inquisitors and not even one of them removed the non-state religion in a specific city. From a strategic point of view: If I am going to sacrifice 25% production to change my civic from Organized Religion to a Thocracy, just so I can produce inquisitors, then I expect the inquisitors to be successful at what they do. The sheer fact that I have gone through 4 inquisitors in as many attempts to eliminate a religion from only one city, makes it hard to justify even producing the inquisitor. Additionally, the cost to produce the inquisitor is very high, which is another reason not to waste resources on the slim chance the inquisition might work. Bottom line: The inquisitor should be effective at least 80% of the time or I believe the loss of production and potential military units is just not worth the trade off. The inquisitor must be more effective to make sense strategically. OrionVeteran

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Might I suggest that, if you failed to remove the religion after the second attempt, you were simply trying to remove said religion from a city where it was too firmly entrenched. Also, switching from Organized to Theocracy is an overall strategic decision. If it practically guaranteed success, then it wouldn't be a real choice, now would it?

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[OrionVeteran]

Precisely, it is a strategic choice. For me, inquisitor production needs to be worth the effort. If you have a lot of cities, it can take several turns to produce enough Missionaries to spread your state religion. Missionaries are successful most of the time and are definitely worth the effort to produce (i.e. a 25% production bonus for each city). I think inquisitors should also be successful most of the time or else why bother?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I have found it to be well-nigh impossible to spread a religion to a city with a pre-existing and long-established religion already inside it, and Inquisitors work along the same line. What I am suggesting is this-if you are clearly failing to remove a religion from a city, then it simply means the religion has been there too long to really effect it, and perhaps you should turn your attention elsewhere.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[TheLopez]

I have a game in which I produced 4 Inquisitors and not even one of them removed the non-state religion in a specific city. From a strategic point of view: If I am going to sacrifice 25% production to change my civic from Organized Religion to a Thocracy, just so I can produce inquisitors, then I expect the inquisitors to be successful at what they do. The sheer fact that I have gone through 4 inquisitors in as many attempts to eliminate a religion from only one city, makes it hard to justify even producing the inquisitor. Additionally, the cost to produce the inquisitor is very high, which is another reason not to waste resources on the slim chance the inquisition might work. Bottom line: The inquisitor should be effective at least 80% of the time or I believe the loss of production and potential military units is just not worth the trade off. The inquisitor must be more effective to make sense strategically. OrionVeteran

OrionVeteran, see post #20 in this thread for why you were unable to remove a non-state religion from a specific city. Also, was it one of your cities or another civilization's city?

 

[funksterj]

TheLopez, this is an awesome effort, thanks heaps. This may sound like an odd question, I'm fiddling with an old mod at the moment and was wondering if your mod is backwards compatible with v. 1.52?

Regards.

 

[OrionVeteran]

Also, was it one of your cities or another civilization's city?

It was one of my own cities. To make the inquisitor worth producing, may I suggest the follwing simplification?

1. Remove a non-state Religion from a city that is a Holy City. Very Expensive and takes time!

4 inquisitors have a 100% chance for success
3 inquisitors have a 75% chance for success
2 inquisitors have a 50% chance for success
1 inquisitor has a 25% chance for success

2. Remove a non-state Religion from a city with religious buildings (i.e. temple, monastery, cathedral or shrine). Fairly expensive

3 inquisitors have a 100% chance for success
2 inquisitors have a 66% chance for success
1 inquisitor has a 33% chance for success.

3. Remove a non-state Religion from a city with no religious buildings. Fairly cheap, just like a missionary, but in reverse.

2 inquisitors have a 100% chance for success
1 inquisitor has an 80% chance for success

This suggestion might be considered heresy, but I think it's worth the chance for getting a good improvement to this mod.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Here is an interesting question for you though: Would you like this method you propose if the AI were to use it on you? I often find that people push for a certain mechanic only because they think of how great it would be for them to use it against others, yet they are not nearly as keen on it if it is used on them. I mean seriously, how would you feel if an AI Inquisitor came along and stripped away the religion of your Holy City? Bet you wouldn't enjoy it, would you? No, I prefer things just the way they are. As someone who tested it, I can vouch for it being nicely balanced.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[TheLopez]

TheLopez, this is an awesome effort, thanks heaps. This may sound like an odd question, I'm fiddling with an old mod at the moment and was wondering if your mod is backwards compatible with v. 1.52?

Regards.

No, it is not, why haven't you upgraded to v1.61?

 

[TheLopez]

Here is an interesting question for you though: Would you like this method you propose if the AI were to use it on you? I often find that people push for a certain mechanic only because they think of how great it would be for them to use it against others, yet they are not nearly as keen on it if it is used on them. I mean seriously, how would you feel if an AI Inquisitor came along and stripped away the religion of your Holy City? Bet you wouldn't enjoy it, would you? No, I prefer things just the way they are. As someone who tested it, I can vouch for it being nicely balanced.

Aussie_Lurker.

Well put Aussie_Lurker.

OrionVeteran, one of my main aims with the inquisition mod was to make sure that the AI knew how to use it without a problem (which from what I can tell, it does). Anyways, I invite you to monkey around with the code and come up with a better solution.

 

[OrionVeteran]

Here is an interesting question for you though: Would you like this method you propose if the AI were to use it on you? I often find that people push for a certain mechanic only because they think of how great it would be for them to use it against others, yet they are not nearly as keen on it if it is used on them. I mean seriously, how would you feel if an AI Inquisitor came along and stripped away the religion of your Holy City? Bet you wouldn't enjoy it, would you? No, I prefer things just the way they are. As someone who tested it, I can vouch for it being nicely balanced.

Aussie_Lurker.

I am not advocating my proposed percentages for use by the AI or by myself against other civilizations. Clearly I would make success much more difficult, if used against other civilizations. I do believe my numbers would be good for use against my own cities only, where I, as ruler, can more easily exert my will by force on the theocracy to maintain the only authorized religion.

When you try and use the inquisitor on another civ, who knows what that religious civic will be? Clearly, a successful inquisition against another civ must be very difficult, if not near impossible.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK then, let us assume then that you had gone to the trouble of spreading your religion to several AI cities-in order to collect the cash via your shrine. Then along comes the AI's inquisitors to strip the religion from those cities. Now we obviously want this to be a possibility-or we wouldn't be playing with this mod-but would we want it to be virtually guaranteed? I doubt it.
As I said, I have played it at length as a tester, and it feels right just the way it is.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[funksterj]

No, it is not, why haven't you upgraded to v1.61?

Like I said, its bit of a long story. But I wanted to integrate your mod with an old mod I was working on 1.52 that won't work with 1.61. I simply wanted to know as a time saver. I'm going to 'upgrade' the old mod to 1.61 so it won't be an issue eventually. It just would have saved a bit of time to test some of the basic code and stuff with 1.52.

Thanks again.