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Modding Q&A

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Oni Ryuu, Feb 1, 2017.

  1. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    New question!

    Subs, helicoppers, destroyers, paratroops, marines.. AI builds these guys rarely, if ever, in my observation. What do you guys do? Add unit -producing improvements?
    I'll leave artillery out of the discussion, as that horse's been beat to ground chuck
     
  2. Kirejara

    Kirejara King

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    Marines and Submarines are unaltered in my mess... ähm... mod, but the KI is building them regulary (especially Marines if they have no oil).

    I have a small wonder called "Shipyard (Destroyer)" that builds a basic destroyer (Four Stack Destroyer by Wyrmshadow) every 10 turns and that can by updated to the more effective flavor destroyers. So I see those a lot. ;)

    I have also shipyards for the forerunners of destroyers (Galley, Corvette, Convoyer and Gunboat) that became obsolate in time for the next generation.

    Paratroopers now have all terrain as road ability and the KI absolutly love them (and I use them also more as they are now more useful ;) ).

    I have no solution for transport eggbeaters now (the KI builds only combat Helicopters and sometimes even placed them on their Seaplane Tenders, but this is a different construction area ;) ).
     
  3. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I've definitely seen the C3C-AI build and use both Marines and Destroyers. I've even (occasionally!) seen them do naval-bombardment followed by a Marine-led invasion, directly against a coastal town.

    And in my recent run on the Middle Ages Conquest, as the Danish, at one point in the late game, the Swedish backstabbed me and immediately 'Zerked one of my coastal towns (likely because I was stupid enough to leave both King Olaf and a Relic-carrying Swordsman in it, thinking they'd be safe there from the Poles and the Burgundians!).

    That said, the AI-Civs do seem to use Marines more often as overland foot-units :crazyeye: Presumably this mostly happens if they happen to get AmphWar before MotorTransp, or when they haven't got all the resources needed to build Tanks, and before they've learnt Rocketry for TOWs...

    But though I have vague memories, from one of my Monarch games many moons ago, of seeing the Vanilla-AI (I think it might have been Mao?) do Heli-drops, I don't remember seeing that happen in any of my more recent (Emperor/DG) games, i.e. likely not since I got better at the game (forcing the AI-Civs to prioritise other builds to obstruct me/ each other), and/or since I started playing Conquests/Complete rather than Vanilla.

    Which is all a little odd really, since IIRC, Conquests-Helis were buffed (longer range, higher capacity) compared to their Vanilla counterparts.
    Spoiler My epic-solo-game-in-progress as an example... :
    I'm playing the Japanese on a Large (randomly generated) 60% Archi. It's now about 2043, and I've been fighting the Dutch for the last 50 years or so (of the other 10 Civs, only the Inca and the French are left; and Joanie only survived because her Palace got jumped to a 1-tile island!).

    We're all(?) in the Modern Age, and Willy's nuked my invasion-forces once already (actually one of his former towns, that I'd just captured and stuffed with injured Tank-Armies to quell the resistance) — and no doubt he will again, just as soon as he's built another (unless Pacha has already cratered all his Uranium-deposits for me, anyway!).

    Though I'm winning the war nonetheless, I'm still behind on score, and not likely to catch up before 2050 (I made lots of mistakes in the early game, not least of which was originally trying to play this map as trade-on-first-meeting-then-DoW AW-variant).

    But I haven't seen a single Heli in this entire game, even though Willy has had plenty of opportunity to build them, and could have absolutely gutted my farm-islands and my backlines using para-drops.

    (Though, off the top of my head, I can't even remember whether he has Advanced Flight yet: as per usual for long AI-wars, he and Pacha went Fascist and stayed there, which might well have affected their research.)
    And I don't remember ever seeing an AI-Paratrooper, in any epic-game (Vanilla, PtW or C3C) I ever played.

    So, if you really wanted the AI to have some Helis (or Paratroopers), I guess you could have Airports(?) auto-produce them.

    That's kinda what I did in my Mod-in-Progress. To cut down on late-game trade-route calculations*, I removed the 'Air-trade' flag from the generic Airport (which now also requires a Factory, and also auto-produces the basic Paratrooper unit every 5 turns), and gave it to an added Small Wonder that I called the 'International Airport' (requires an Airport, and auto-produces a Heli every 5 turns).

    Spoiler * :
    Early-game water trade-routes now go via a 'Port' (I renamed the Coastal Fortress, made it available with 'Shipbuilding': renamed 'Mapmaking'), but these can now only be built near freshwater, i.e. river mouths, or on a 1-tile isthmus between saltwater and freshwater. The Palace has the water-trade flag as well, so that Sea-Civs (or canny humans!) can trade along coasts from the start. The 'Harbour' is also now cheaper, but now 'only' increases the food-supply from water-tiles.
    Don't know how well this will work yet, though...
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  4. Kirejara

    Kirejara King

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    I have to disagree with myself about the transport helicopter. ;)

    With "Gunpowder" one can build the first primitive Airship (Range 4, carries on foot unit, no defence, marked as bomber). This Airship will lose any air battle and goes down if anyone shows them so much as a picture of an anti-air-weapon. ;)

    On the other side it can be captured if its base is captured.

    The Airship can be upgraded to Zeppelin, Transport Plane (Adv. Flight)z. B. Skymaster, Me363, Transport Plane (Smart Weapons) z. B. Airbus.

    All of them are marked as bomber and transport, but lack the airdrop button (only the last one has this button).

    This is actually a handicap for the human player as the KI can and will airdrop without that button!

    But it can also result into a YESSS! moment, as this picture of the freshly conquered city of Swazi shows. ;)



    A similar way could be used for the Transport Helicopter.

    Oh yes, there is also a very primitive interceptor with "Physiks" (modelled by the Wrigh Flyer from Wyrmshadow) that is only useful against the Airship (as it has only one attack point and minus two hitpoints, it will lose in most cases to a WWI aircraft.
     
  5. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    Funny Ive got the paratrooper line seperate from light infantry and they never build the former and rarely the latter. Maybe combining Pdrop and unwheeled is what piques the Ai's interest

    Auto produ tion is an infortunate reality, but I try to minimize it. To essential units. Marines, so you can load up your coastlime with spears. Destroyers, so the ai can counter subs, and hmm maybe helos. I think helos over paratroops.. Armies, of course and the rest can go to hell.
    Also its a pain in the chud if you do flavor units

    Regarding airtrade, what kind of computers is everyone running here, 17(?) years post release.
    Rock on keyboard, 4500 bc to 2000 ad, 31 civs, without any of these resource savers.. 1 hour 40 -2 hours
     
  6. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    :eek: :faint:

    My current machine is reasonably modern (bought in early 2015), even if not particularly high-spec (Win8.1, quad(?)-core processor — not that that makes any difference, AFAIK, since the conquests.exe is only capable of using one of them) — but it still doesn't run basic C3C noticeably faster than my old WinXP laptop (bought in 2006) did/does.

    And even though I save anytime I'm likely to be AFK for >5 minutes, most of my C3C Standard–Large epic-games (usually Emperor, with all-Random geography/Civs) still easily exceed 30-40 hours; mods with more Civs/ larger maps (like CCM, with its ~260 x 260 Huge map, 31 civs, no Settlement on Desert or Tundra, unroaded Mountain-access blocked for most units, and nerfed trade-routes) can run over 100 hours per game.

    A single late-game turn in CCM frequently takes (me) 15-30 minutes to play and then process the IBT. Even if I use rally-points, and stack-attacks — not that I do that latter very often — giving orders to 100s of units across the map (often on multiple fronts) still takes time; and every time an inter-AI war is declared/ resolved, or a town changes hands, the game-engine recalculates all trade-routes for the involved parties.

    So frankly, I find it very hard to believe that anyone can play a full epic C3C game from the Ancient to the (late) Modern Age in less than 2 hours in total. At least, not without disabling/ignoring most/all of the diplomatic abilities/trading, accelerating production, automating almost everything that can be automated, and switching off all the animations — but where's the fun in that? ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  7. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    That's used as a basis to calculate between turns load times, Point is, they aint very long (averaging 15-20 seconds over the course of 450- 500 turns. Hence I don't worry about nerfing trade routes.

    Epic mod is only approx 140x160 tho
     
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Ah, right, it wasn't immediately clear (to me) what you meant by "Rock on keyboard" — I didn't realise you meant it literally! (Presumably, to hold down the Space-bar to 'End turn'?)!

    So your quoted figure of 1.5-2.0 hours was actually an estimate of the total interturn processing time for a full game! :whew: For a moment there, I thought that number might have been (indirectly) implying that [my] playstyle was seriously inefficient/overthought, resulting in a much longer game-time than necessary*. But how useful an estimate is it, though?

    The only way I can think of to get the 'rock-on-keyboard' technique to produce a result that was representative of a 'real' game, is if you ran the .biq in debug-mode, and assigned all(?) players to be fully controlled by the AI? Is that possible/ how it's done (looking for useful tips here)?

    Spoiler * :
    Weeeellll, if I'm being strictly honest with myself, that's probably still true... ;)
     
  9. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    The number's relevance is it determining whether any adjustments should be made to speed calculation time. Rock on keyboard is an advanced modding tool to observe Ai behavior and flow of game. Just make a dummy civ, toss thema settler on a 1 tile island in the middle of nowhere with some infantry, and wait it
     
  10. Kirejara

    Kirejara King

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    With Quintilus Editor it is not that bad, as it supports copy and paste. ;)

    And not only does it looks more interesting than most civs have different units, but one can also add a change in game tactics if they do not have identical parameters.

    Two examples:

    Most nations have with "Motorized Transportation" either a Medium Tank (ADM 16/8/2) or a Light Tank (12/6/3).

    Four notable exceptions are Russia and Germany, those Panthers and T-34 combine the strength of medium T. with the speed of a light T., Japan those Type 89 combines the speed of the medium T. with the strength of a light T. (worst Tank in game! :D) and the Hittites without a Tank (they have instead of the early Tank (Combustion) their feared and slow Landmonitor).

    Also most Light T. users gain with "Fission" a heavy Tank. Notable exceptions are again Germany and Russia who also gain their Tigers and IS-2s and Japan without a heavy Tank.

    Trying to achieve air superiority as Rome? Have fun, as Rome has only the CR42 Falco Biplane Fighter (6/3/5 against average 8/6/6) with "Flight".
    Oh, your enemy is England or Germany and they have just reached "Advanced Flight".

    You have to agree, that huning CR42 Falcos with Meteors or Me262s (12/8/6) is something unsporting. :D
     
  11. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    There's something to be said for simplicity and not cramming in every mediocre graphic you can find. But the pain in the chud I was referring to was adding 5 different auto-produce improvements for different flavors of say, some early marine unit. Or helicopters.
    But you're right, I guess it's not hard. Just don't want to get too carried away. Next thing you know you've got Lollipop factory improvements and paper-boy units
    Maybe I'll toss in a 'submarine shop/bay'. Subs aint got no flavor..
    You guys ever catch the AI using subs?
     
  12. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    You can use the methode I have found more than 10 years ago and named Advanced Autoproduction. This concept now is used by some other mods and scenarios, too - and it is very effective. :)
     
  13. Kirejara

    Kirejara King

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    First at all: I do not cram in every mediocre graphic in my game.:mad:
    Second I do use autoproducing only for critical units, the KI otherwise do not build themself (like destroyers).

    Also if you want autoproduced flavor units, you do not need to build several different small wonders for each nation. You only need one building, that produces a basic unit for free upgrade into the flavor.


    I am out of this discussion with you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  14. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    Clever.
    Without diving through the whole thread, giving the palace the upgrade units ability (through the veteran units flag, no?) is essentially making it a barracks right? Couldnt the same thing be accomplished by req a barracks instead of palace?
    Up till now, for example, in an attempt to buff and distinguish the feudalism gov, I added a vassalage improvement (auto'ing some crappy levy unit), one for each culture group, which has no noticable drawback, besides a pain to add them, and in the civpedia under feudalism gov't now theres a whole mess of improv's displayed there (but tech tree is neat, so no biggie)
     
  15. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Yes it could, but in this case, IIRC, @Civinator's intent was to ensure that (efficient, native) Workers are not in plentiful supply during the early game. If Worker-Houses could be built anywhere that simply had a (generic) Barracks, then autoproduced Apprentices (which upgrade to Culture-/Civ-specific Worker-units) would be popping out in far greater numbers than wanted. Whereas limiting Worker-House to the Palace/capital, means that you can only build one such building to serve your entire empire, without needing to make it a SWonder.

    And those auto-produced Workers also become extremely precious, so the player has to think very carefully about how to deploy (and defend!) them -- because the AI's (autoproduced) Slaver-units are also out there, somewhere...

    Should maybe also be noted that this lack of Workers is not a crippling drawback, because in CCM, REXing is not possible. For most of the first 2 ages, Settlers cannot be built: instead, a generic Settler-precursor is also autoproduced -- every 20 turns, by the Palace itself, IIRC -- and again, this precursor-unit forms the basis of an upgrade-chain which includes all the Culture-/Civ-specific Settler-units.
     
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  16. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    tjs282, thank you very much for the additional explanations. :)

    Advanced Autoproduction can be used by any building in C3C. I mostly use it for SWs. My mod holds many such SWs, all with the barracks function and mostly immobile base units, per example the heavy tank plant, The SSNB Project and many more.

    Here you can see the heavy tank plant and the cornucopia of units this single building can produce:





    And this is the City View with the Heavy Tank Plant in CCM2:

     

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  17. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    Ah, gotcha. Though I dont understand why you wouldnt want to just make you worker house a small wonder, but yes, I get the rest of it now.
    What is REXing?
    Settler spamming is one of the ai's favorite activities, and I can certainly get behind throwing down some roadblocks there. Workers, the AI seems to do a pretty good job with. Tanks they build, tho probably not as many as they should, but that rubber req gets in the way and the Ai is not good at colonizing properly (like throwing down all their South American citiies 2 tiles inland so they cant export nothin.
    While Im on the subject I can understand autoing subs, helis, and carriers as I never see them built. The Ai, it like autoproducing wonders and improvements, no? Does it factor in cost of the improvemwnt much into the equation? For a human player, it may make sense sometimes to build a single sub for 100 shields than a 'subfactory' for 400 that pumps em out every 8th turn, but I worry such a high shield cost for that improvement would deter the Ai

    Btw 'Great War Experience' sounds like a 3d exhibit at a WWI Museum.

    Also, anyones thoughts on halving upgrade cost? Like a davinci small wonder, to go from 2 coins per shield difference to one? (Is 2C\1S the standard or did I change that somewhere?

    BTW2 Gonna give CCm2 a play now that I almost got my epic game deadonballs, cantgetanybetter perfect and dont wanna look at it anymore. Maybe try some total change up first, like that warhamburger business or something with sparkly dragons.. will make a suggestion thread
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  18. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    ****, give these buffoons carriers and they dont even use em. Accidently set carrier autospammer as regular improv instead of lil wonder and theres dozens of these things floating around in 2000ad.. and thats all theyre doing. Ive see ai load helicops but they just use carriers as decoration.. Screenshot coming.
    eDIT screenshot not coming. Printscrn button doesnt make pictures appear in Pictures folder fudge you windows.
    Picture this: literally a wall half across atlantic of scandinavian battleships, destroyers (non-auto produced) and empty carriers(auto), like 7-9 tiles.. 2 or 3 ships per tile. Just chilling, waiting for war.

    25 turns later, Japan is building nuclear subs in every single one of its cities, and theres a line of them from there to europe, some banged up from evidently attacking everything on the way.. so I guess they do build and use subs, at least when they have tactical missile transport ability (or, less likely, high enough stats)
    Also a single bomber spotted based on a carrier..

    Civanator, I took a look at what you did to address the carrier issue in CCM. Obviously, less than ideal, but if you can't get Ai to base on them, only alternative is essentailly a player only unit. Question is, have you ever seen them use them and just found their use volume unsatisfactory? Is that single time I spotted them a fluke? There was approx 3 dozen on the map (due to aforementioned mistake) and only 1 observed incidence of use, although their lack of use may have been circumstantial (Ai civs w/carriers not at war, no aircraft nearby, etc)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  19. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    The best is, to let tjs282 explain this himself: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/most-game-changing-concept-tip.639765/page-2#post-15426372

    For me it is more fun, when big parts of the game are not "wasted" by building one settler or worker after the other. It is a part in the big concept of this mod against the ICS tactics, that spoil each normal C3C game.

    In the civilopedia it is explained, how carriers are working in CCM:





    The long range bombardment frequently is not noticed and it needs a spotted target in range of that bombardment. I have seen some long range bombardment by the AI in testgames. On the other hand, carriers are the most less tested units in this mod. The game is mostly over before these units appear for AI civs. Therefore there is no documentation about them in the CCM succession games, that also helped me a lot in improving this mod.

    I´m always interested in suggestions to improve carriers.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  20. Bungus

    Bungus Archont of Cootertown

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    Yes, rexing should be nerfed (I did it the lazy way by just making settlers cost more gold/population). Lotsa little cites, however: I'm not opposed to it being one of many strategies, like if you're going fuedalism->communism route

    Thanks for posting, but I was trying to save you the trouble of having to post them picks by mentioning it preemptively. Found out as much from your mod's thread. Very thorough. Question is, what spurred the change to that mechanic? Did you ever see the ai basing on carriers or were they just not doing it enough where it was realistic?

    I got nothing for you on carriers.. I'm going to do some more rock-play-thru's and see if I can observe them basing anything on them again or if it was a fluke. After 17 years there must be other anecdotal reports of their use/ lackthereof of the forum, I havn't done much to alter the basic carrier that would make the Ai use em any smarter. Like you said, they're late game, so if they use them at all I'll call it win and be happy the way they are
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019

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