[MODMOD] Legacy of Erebus: Nuova Alba

[arkham4269]

Yeah, a nomadic civilization is kind of the dream of many modders out there I was planning to go for one but not sure now.

As for the Hippus, I'm not really keen on making them centaurs... Well, I'm not sure about the idea. Come to think of it, it could be an interesting move. That'd be a great shift... Hm, I don't know, really The thing is, Hippus are supposed to represent master horsemen (and master shepherds more generally); making them centaurs kinda rip it away, don't you think?

Although what I'm really considering is changing their name; 'Hippus' really is too literal for my taste.

Well I only brought it up because since I don't have a SCREAMING machine that allows me to pay 18+ civs on TITANIC maps, my games often don't have a lot of variety in races. So I've always felt it better to maybe have more races be non-human.

However, in regard to the Hippus, I don't really mind the motif that Peter Jackson did in LOTR by having the Rohirrim being Horse Vikings. I mean generally when one thinks of of horsemen civs, one invariably thinks of the Mongolians. So I think it's interesting to see the Hippus in the LOTR light, especially since for the most part FfH still has mostly a European vibe to it.

Of course, I guess there really isn't a reason to make the Hippus centaurs because the Kuriotates actually fit better. You have a few 'real' cities and the rest are merely camps that help claim territory. I mean if the bulk of your population is nomadic, it's hard to 'claim' territory. Plus I think the "God-Child-King" leader of the Kuriotates could be a good one for my idea of a race that is a combination of different races. Of course it would be interesting to change him from being a kid to being a hobbit or gnome who negotiated the "Kuriotate Union" where in return for protection and stuff, the hobbits/gnomes would help the Centaurs with stuff they didn't have a lot of interest in. For the Centaurs it would be a win-win since they would get a lot of the benefits of a urban civilization without living it in and the hobbit/gnomes get the protection of a bunch of big-badass centaurs.

Plus, if you think about it, traditionally hobbits and/or gnomes don't like being bothered so living simply and cranking out stuff in return for the Centaurs protection would fit their mindset. Since hobbits are pretty simple folk, I would think gnomes would be better fit for the Cultural Kuriotates since gnomes (like dwarves) like to build beautiful things. Plus, just because the Centaurs are nomadic, I would expect them to be good bards and poets with a rich oral culture.

Anyway, as I said, I just like seeing races other than humans when fiddling with Civs.

 

[Opera]

Well I only brought it up because since I don't have a SCREAMING machine that allows me to pay 18+ civs on TITANIC maps, my games often don't have a lot of variety in races. So I've always felt it better to maybe have more races be non-human.

However, in regard to the Hippus, I don't really mind the motif that Peter Jackson did in LOTR by having the Rohirrim being Horse Vikings. I mean generally when one thinks of of horsemen civs, one invariably thinks of the Mongolians. So I think it's interesting to see the Hippus in the LOTR light, especially since for the most part FfH still has mostly a European vibe to it.

Of course, I guess there really isn't a reason to make the Hippus centaurs because the Kuriotates actually fit better. You have a few 'real' cities and the rest are merely camps that help claim territory. I mean if the bulk of your population is nomadic, it's hard to 'claim' territory. Plus I think the "God-Child-King" leader of the Kuriotates could be a good one for my idea of a race that is a combination of different races. Of course it would be interesting to change him from being a kid to being a hobbit or gnome who negotiated the "Kuriotate Union" where in return for protection and stuff, the hobbits/gnomes would help the Centaurs with stuff they didn't have a lot of interest in. For the Centaurs it would be a win-win since they would get a lot of the benefits of a urban civilization without living it in and the hobbit/gnomes get the protection of a bunch of big-badass centaurs.

Plus, if you think about it, traditionally hobbits and/or gnomes don't like being bothered so living simply and cranking out stuff in return for the Centaurs protection would fit their mindset. Since hobbits are pretty simple folk, I would think gnomes would be better fit for the Cultural Kuriotates since gnomes (like dwarves) like to build beautiful things. Plus, just because the Centaurs are nomadic, I would expect them to be good bards and poets with a rich oral culture.

Anyway, as I said, I just like seeing races other than humans when fiddling with Civs.

Yeah, I get your issue with human civs. That's why I'm (nearly) only adding non-human civs, even though one of them (the one I talked about in the eastern civ thread) is really like humans...

About the Kuriotates, in LENA they will be a bit different; no more child-dragon-king thing, I didn't like that part. They're more about the Voice of the Dragon; they think their leader is actually the incarnation of Eurabatres. In a way, it's like Cardith Lorda, except the leader isn't eternal, the Voice slips from one body to another in due time because it cannot make the host immortal; at least that's what the Kurios think.

Anyway, one thing I could do is just add a whole Centaur civilization. That's just a wild idea right now but I'm certain it is feasible and would even be liked. Not sure they should be nomadic (not sure I want to invest time into creating a nomadic civ too). If you're interested, feel free to make suggestions; just know that my mind isn't set and that I don't promise anything, okay?

 

[arkham4269]

Anyway, one thing I could do is just add a whole Centaur civilization. That's just a wild idea right now but I'm certain it is feasible and would even be liked. Not sure they should be nomadic (not sure I want to invest time into creating a nomadic civ too). If you're interested, feel free to make suggestions; just know that my mind isn't set and that I don't promise anything, okay?

I understand about the nomadic thing. What I was thinking was that the current Kuriotate scheme fits a symbiotic lifestyle between the 'urban' gnomes and the nomadic centaurs. You would have a limited amount of big cities (gnomes don't breed fast) and the Centaurs really live out on the grassland and plains.

I would think that for them, instead of the uber-cottage/hamlet/village you would have some sort uber camp to represent that is where the Centaurs usually are.

Another idea is the idea we've been talking about over in O.30 thread is that since a lot of Centaurs are nomadic, many wouldn't necessarily show up during a war muster yet would defend their territory so you'd have a militia centaur unit show up if their uber-camp is threatened.

Another idea is the centaurs live outside the cities, the urban areas are a amalgam of 'rejects' from other races welcomed in by this Civ. So perhaps instead of adventurers, they would have a have the option of adding racial promotions to their units. So if you build a axeman, it might be a dwarven one, human or elvish or gnomish. It's still an axeman, but it's 'special' since it has it's racial bonus. This way you wouldn't have to go nuts with a lot of UU. The centaurs are already created for their cavalry units and in a sense aren't UU since they are pretty much just cavalry with the centaur racial promotion. The only question I have is could it be made that if you give a unit say the elven promotion, would it show up with the elven graphics?

So you'd have the nomadic Centaurs who don't want to be tied down living in symbiosis with the urban types who have been kicked out of all the other areas. Sort of like an Erebus America or Netherlands during the Renaissance.

One way to make them a bit more unique would be that while they could gain religion, they couldn't have a state religion. Plus I would think they would have a "bonus" of in times of war to show they don't like it as a culture. The Centaurs don't care about politics and most of the urban types just want to be left alone by the other cultures that kicked them out.

I still like the idea of the bulk of the urban folks being gnomes because I've always seen gnomes as being unassuming and devoted to their work/art. As long as you are willing to live and let live and work toward creating Beauty (or things that are inventive if you like the more steampunk gnomes) then they're okay with you.

 

[Opera]

Another idea is the centaurs live outside the cities, the urban areas are a amalgam of 'rejects' from other races welcomed in by this Civ. So perhaps instead of adventurers, they would have a have the option of adding racial promotions to their units. So if you build a axeman, it might be a dwarven one, human or elvish or gnomish. It's still an axeman, but it's 'special' since it has it's racial bonus. This way you wouldn't have to go nuts with a lot of UU. The centaurs are already created for their cavalry units and in a sense aren't UU since they are pretty much just cavalry with the centaur racial promotion. The only question I have is could it be made that if you give a unit say the elven promotion, would it show up with the elven graphics?

That's actually something I wanted to do for a long time. And yeah, it'd be possible to change the unit artstyle accordingly

One way to make them a bit more unique would be that while they could gain religion, they couldn't have a state religion. Plus I would think they would have a "bonus" of in times of war to show they don't like it as a culture. The Centaurs don't care about politics and most of the urban types just want to be left alone by the other cultures that kicked them out.

Well, that's not really unique, since Grigori can already do that (the religion stuff)

I still like the idea of the bulk of the urban folks being gnomes because I've always seen gnomes as being unassuming and devoted to their work/art. As long as you are willing to live and let live and work toward creating Beauty (or things that are inventive if you like the more steampunk gnomes) then they're okay with you.

Yeah, it fits the Kurios, but I don't really like the idea of putting gnomes in. I mean, I remember what you said about too many human civs but, well, if Kurios are to be a mix of many races, it wouldn't be surprising to have humans in there too. And probably elves, dwarves (who are enough like gnomes I think), and so on...

Anyway, perhaps a good way to emphasize on the Kurios' mix of races would be to use, say, elves as archery line, dwarves as melee line, humans as mages, etc. Or simply give a random race promotion to each unit you train (except those already having one, like centaurs).

 

[Valkrionn]

Don't forget about the Musteval recon line, and the Lamia arcane line if it's ever animated.

 

[Opera]

I didn't mention the Mustevals because they're already in
I forgot the Lamias though. Well, I'd put the humans as disciples and the lamias as mages then!

 

[arkham4269]

Well, that's not really unique, since Grigori can already do that (the religion stuff)

Well the Grigori, as I understand it are similar to the Illians, Mechanos and the like in that they are atheists so they can't get a religion.

Yeah, it fits the Kurios, but I don't really like the idea of putting gnomes in. I mean, I remember what you said about too many human civs but, well, if Kurios are to be a mix of many races, it wouldn't be surprising to have humans in there too. And probably elves, dwarves (who are enough like gnomes I think), and so on...

I agree. I guess I always wanted a way to get hobbits into the mix. Of course I've always felt one could make the Luirchirp into gnomes since they have always been shown to living more out into the open ground. It isn't a necessary change other than making them more different.

Anyway, perhaps a good way to emphasize on the Kurios' mix of races would be to use, say, elves as archery line, dwarves as melee line, humans as mages, etc. Or simply give a random race promotion to each unit you train (except those already having one, like centaurs).

I was thinking that since they wouldn't have many UU, being able to pick your promotion could allow the player to tailor what they need. However I would that would be best for game-play, I do think that having a random racial promotion would be the best since just because there are a lot of mountains in your neck of the woods doesn't mean you impress all the poor dwarves into combat. Plus I like the idea that you get what you get. I mean why should the elves always be stuck being archers?

Plus I think the randomness would also work better for the AI since I doubt it is smart enough to know what to build and when.

One nice thing about this race would be that it would benefit the Balseraphs if there aren't one of the races in the game, they would still have a way to get slaves of that race.

 

[Opera]

Well the Grigori, as I understand it are similar to the Illians, Mechanos and the like in that they are atheists so they can't get a religion.

They have a lessened chance but can still get a religion in their cities.

I agree. I guess I always wanted a way to get hobbits into the mix. Of course I've always felt one could make the Luirchirp into gnomes since they have always been shown to living more out into the open ground. It isn't a necessary change other than making them more different.

Yes, I think that even though they live at the surface, they still are dwarves; just that dwarves shouldn't be thought as exclusively mountain-dwellers.

I was thinking that since they wouldn't have many UU, being able to pick your promotion could allow the player to tailor what they need. However I would that would be best for game-play, I do think that having a random racial promotion would be the best since just because there are a lot of mountains in your neck of the woods doesn't mean you impress all the poor dwarves into combat. Plus I like the idea that you get what you get. I mean why should the elves always be stuck being archers?

Plus I think the randomness would also work better for the AI since I doubt it is smart enough to know what to build and when.

One nice thing about this race would be that it would benefit the Balseraphs if there aren't one of the races in the game, they would still have a way to get slaves of that race.

I think the random race prom will be added then

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I think the random race prom will be added then

I know a the suggestion of applying that sort of thing to the Grigori has been floated a time or two as well. After all, they do already have a number of heroes who are of other races, and their philosophy is in no way restricted to Humans. Any consideration of doing it for them as well?





On a separate subject, this isn't so much as a request but a brainstorm you might be interested, when you were dwelling on minor leaders a while back. The general idea is for Amateur Traits, for the minor leaders.

Amateur Traits would be stand-ins for the traits of minor leaders, roughly equivalent to a primary trait but also with some sort of drawback, which would be lost (trait replaced) when conditions are met.

For example, the Aggressive trait might be replaced with 'Attacker': while still giving Combat 1 to units, the drawback would be that the civ would suffer a penalty on the defensive for being too-aggressive and not ready to defend. So while the natural attacking is better for the combat one, there might be a 30% malus (10% past combat 1 bonus) when attacked. Naturally, this goes away when the Minor Leader 'matures' and learns better.

Defensive, on the other hand, might be replaced with 'Cautious': while still getting the defensive bonuses, it suffers penalties to assault, perhaps offering a first strike to opponents in combat when attacking.

Spiritual might be replaced with 'Traditionalist': While the first civic change in any category from your turn-1 default might be painless, changes within a set category might be penalized with extra turns of anarchy: while adopting the ways might have been easy initially, changing them causes stirs.

And so it goes. Industrial might be 'Inefficient', Financial 'Conspicuous Opulence', and so on.

Of course, none of them quite match the real appeal of minor leaders, of choosing your own civ trait through actions. But then, they do not need to go by the same standard either; while getting that new trait might mark the rise to Major Leader, and so be mature enough to justify replacing the traits, you could also put in easier triggers to replace the Amateur traits. Attacker might be matured by winning defensive battles (or getting the actual Aggressive trait), Traditionalist might have a chance of being replaced after changing religions/civics after a point, Industrial achieved by crime-lowering buildings, etc. All in all, players start with the base strengths of the traits, but grow into them more through the game.



Just a though, of course. Leave what you will.

 

[Opera]

I know a the suggestion of applying that sort of thing to the Grigori has been floated a time or two as well. After all, they do already have a number of heroes who are of other races, and their philosophy is in no way restricted to Humans. Any consideration of doing it for them as well?

Each time, people told me it was more fitting for the Kurios than for the Grigori; but I did think about that first for the Grigori. So I don't know yet.

On a separate subject, this isn't so much as a request but a brainstorm you might be interested, when you were dwelling on minor leaders a while back. The general idea is for Amateur Traits, for the minor leaders.

I'm not in favor of 'traits gaining' on 'minor' leaders. I don't plan on splitting leaders between major ones and minor ones. I know that is something players might miss but I feel it isn't an interesting enough mechanic.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Bah humbug. And here I thought I had a happy balance. Could have the planned set of traits, but still give a differentiation. Bah humbug, I say!

 

[Kalina]

Yes, some new things. Actually, I'm gonna introduce a new civilization, the Bashala, who are the three other tribes, not unified under the Ngomele banner. They're a less 'racist' people, living along lizardmen and orcs.

Also, as part of their lore, the Ngomele got in a horrible war against the Empire of the Sheaim (at the time led by Os-Warqa), who conquered more than half their territory, slaughtering a lot of them in the process, including Mvadang and Vungu. A Bashala-Orcish alliance then gathered to fight for Ngomele's survival.

Edit: If you want something more, Kalina, please ask; perhaps more precisely about what you want information about, though

It's going to be a while before they reach Ngomele lands (they met a party led by Banung who is searching for traitor. One she's looking for is not actually a traitor, but it's another story). In my game Ngomele are fighting a war against much more powerful enemy (in my game it is also an evil empire. Inspired are quite similar to Sheaim, in fact, as they are led by Inspired who are powerful beings possesed by evil spirits). So I'd appreciate any info about how Ngomele are fighting - are they using only small groups and guerilla tactics or maybe are able to gather army large enough to fight full scale battles. If so, who would lead such an army and are Ngomele willing to unite against an enemy or are tribal differences simply too much. Any, if losing, are they going to fight till the end or are rather willing to surrender their independence ? And if willing to surrender, who is going to negotiate terms. Or maybe some leaders are going to fight anyway?

 

[Opera]

It's going to be a while before they reach Ngomele lands (they met a party led by Banung who is searching for traitor. One she's looking for is not actually a traitor, but it's another story). In my game Ngomele are fighting a war against much more powerful enemy (in my game it is also an evil empire. Inspired are quite similar to Sheaim, in fact, as they are led by Inspired who are powerful beings possesed by evil spirits).

Sounds interesting

So I'd appreciate any info about how Ngomele are fighting - are they using only small groups and guerilla tactics or maybe are able to gather army large enough to fight full scale battles.

It depends on the period of their history.

Early Ngomele were mostly arranged in hunting groups, even for war. As such, that was mostly guerrilla fighting, hidden in forest and all.

Then after the expansion of the Green Sea, the army organized itself around the spellcasters and the Kha. Most warriors were also spellcasters though; those unable to use the Green Sea weren't seen as good enough for combat, except if they were Kha. At that time, the Cowrider began to appear.

At the highest of the First Zanganga (the government created by the unification of the five gnoll tribes), the army was using dugeredis, small, handheld cannons using the Green Sea. Kha lost their role in combat and Cowriders grew more important and stronger too. Regular warriors (non-spellcaster) were more used too, since spellcasters were used to empower the dugeredis.

Finally, after the demise against the Sheaim, the Kha were used again, the dugeredis even more, made even easier to use thanks to the Bashala and their allies; the "shiniest" unit would be a Cowrider wielding a dugeredi.

So, to summarize: before the invention of the dugeredi, they were mostly waring in small groups; after, they were waring in huge group.

If so, who would lead such an army and are Ngomele willing to unite against an enemy or are tribal differences simply too much.

Early armies (non-dugeredi) were either lead by a Kha or by a Heheishur; more specific example are armies lead either by Nga or by Mvadang. As a note, Banung never lead any army, neither did Vungu. Lengdu was a Kha so it was his job to lead armies.

Late armies (dugeredi) were mostly lead by Heheishur or by members of the Council. The Kha were only reintroduced after the Sheaim Invasions, because the Bashala were still using them.

Also, no, the tribal differences aren't too much. The Ngomele are united tribes, firmly united, because they all came to realize that it was needed for them to survive.

Any, if losing, are they going to fight till the end or are rather willing to surrender their independence ? And if willing to surrender, who is going to negotiate terms. Or maybe some leaders are going to fight anyway?

They wouldn't like to surrender but Council members would try to choose the best thing to do; if surrendering would save them, they would order the armies to stop fighting. Although Mvadang and her network would most likely keep fighting.

 

[rocklikeafool]

So, I'm having a hard time following this tbh. Could you maybe summarize it a bit, Opera? I gather there's going to be a new civ. What are some of the features planned for that? Also, I'm unsure if you're changing some of the current civs or what? Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Opera]

So, I'm having a hard time following this tbh. Could you maybe summarize it a bit, Opera? I gather there's going to be a new civ. What are some of the features planned for that? Also, I'm unsure if you're changing some of the current civs or what? Thanks, I appreciate it.

Okay, as for revealed features for LENA 1.00 (compared to Orbis):

- New leaders
- New traits
- Leader-to-Leader relationship modifiers
- Two new civs: Ngomele & Bashala

But that's only the visible part of the iceberg. I'm working on things I won't discuss for now.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Ok. Thanks very much.

 

[Schwarzbart]

Will tere be a full Install for the next Version or still the 3 step Installation (FfH->Orbis->LENA)?

 

[Valkrionn]

Seeing as she's waiting for the new version of Orbis, it's either a full install or a 2-step (Orbis -> LENA).

 

[Opera]

I'm not exactly waiting for Orbis 0.30 anymore. I'm planning to make it a full download; a bit longer to get but you won't have to have the correct version of Orbis anymore

 

[rocklikeafool]

So, a separate install then? Or will there still be elements from Orbis? Personally, I'd be careful with that, cuz we (meaning the WH Mod Team) thought that Warhammer: Heart of Chaos was a complete stand-alone setup. As we found out, the mod was still calling for elements from FF. So, I'd double & triple check it by 1) copying Orbis somewhere outside of the CivIV BTS mod folder, 2) moving or deleting Orbis (but not that copy I mentioned), and (3 trying to run LENA without Orbis in the CivIV BTS mod folder. Then, I'd put Orbis on a separate drive & test LENA again. Anyway, you prolly were already gonna do that, but just thought I'd mention it. You don't want people posting, "So, I downloaded LENA but not Orbis and I'm getting errors saying it's calling for this" and it turning out it still wants elements from Orbis. So, just a friendly warning, modder to modder.