Modscenario: Playable Byzantines, 610AD.

in first: THANK YOU TDK!
this acknowledgment of your good work was simply due.

Now lets start with the criticism. :)
In general I did like your mod-scenario.
I didn't have yet time to finish the game, but I can already see the need for some small improvements.

1. most of towns in the empire do not have courthouses and similar official buildings.
At least the core empire (Athens, Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, etc.) should have them.
We are still talking about the est roman empire: those regions were well developed with good infrastructures and received minimal invasions.
In short, the towns need a little bit more infrastructures

2. little land improvements
similar concept to #1, at least the main resources need to be improved at linked by roads.

3. there is no navy
a couple of triremes will be a better representation of historical reality

4. at the start you're, pretty much, the only christian state.
easy to get elected resident of the apostolic palace and later on dominate European politic with AP resolutions

5. easy money
The UP gives far too much money and you can run a large army without compromising research: it makes everything far too easy.


My game so far have been rather nice (monarch) and strangely easy:

With the war against the Arabs I did lose Jerusalem but that was all.
The Arabs didn't really try to move any farther north.
On the Egyptian front I was able to keep Alexandria.

After a while got a peace treaty with the Arabs (I had to give them the calendar)

Time passes, got in touch with all emerging European, and open amicable relations.
This brings even more commerce money thanks to open borders.
Some AP resolutions help:
- open borders with all christian states...
Arabia has at least one christian town so they also open their borders!
- Give Cairo (or whatever is called) to the right owner (me)
Succeeded!

In brief:
- Arabs were not a real big problem, at least if you don't care of Jerusalem.
- Overpowered UP makes easy to wage war and expand territory
- Initial very srong dominance for AP

I'll play more later... the real problems will come with the Turks I suppose





UHV.
we need something to force a longer and more aggressive conflict between the Byz. and their eastern neighbors.

Maybe something about reconquering the Holy Land?
it would prolong the conflict with the Arabs but will be not too accurate historically.

For sure something like "control Constantinople and Near East" in 1500AD will be very appropriate:
This will guarantee conflict against the Turks (they have to conquer Istanbul by the same date) and it reflects the importance of Anatolia as core part of empire for the Byz.

something like:
PHP:
                elif (iPlayer == iGreece):
                        if (pGreece.isAlive()):
                                if (iGameTurn == i1500AD):
                                	bNearEast = self.checkOwnedArea(iRome, tNearEastTL, tNearEastBR, 2) 3)
                                	if (bNearEast ): 
					        self.setGoal(iGreece, 1, 1)   
					else:
                                                self.setGoal(iGreece, 1, 0)
                                                
                                if (iGameTurn == i1450AD):
                                        if (pGreece.countTotalCulture() >= 50000):
                                                self.setGoal(iGreece, 0, 1)
                                        else:
                                                self.setGoal(iGreece, 0, 0)
 
Once TDK lowers the extremely high amount of gold Byzantine makes per turn, it would probably be a good idea to either keep or recapture Jerusalem.
 
Re: 1-4, I have given the Byzantines the exact same units, structures and improvements as in Rhye's 600AD. This was the guiding principle throughout, to change as little as possible.

I do agree with you that Byzantines are way overpowered, and I'm pondering how to deal with it. I might move the start date to 640AD on the principle of optimal Arab performance(meaning I'm playing them:lol:) and with a look to actual history, which would give them Jerusalem and a strong position in Egypt(outside Alexandria).

The loss of: Jerusalem, possibly Alexandria and the erroneous +1 commerce on land tiles should severely weaken Byzantines and make a game with a more historic feel.

BTW, thanks for that peace of code there, I will probably need that.

TDK
 
BTW, thanks for that peace of code there, I will probably need that.

TDK
only if you correct it. :)
there is a "iRome" that should be "iGreece" instead. :)


you also need to remove the other code for the original greek UHV.
for example in the function def onBuildingBuilt(self, iPlayer, iBuilding): you need to remove completely the greek code
Spoiler :
PHP:
                elif (iPlayer == iGreece):
                        if (pGreece.isAlive()):
                                if (self.getGoal(iGreece, 1) == -1):
                                        if (iGameTurn <= i250BC):
                                                if (iBuilding == con.iOracle or iBuilding == con.iColossus or iBuilding == con.iParthenon or iBuilding == con.iArtemis):
                                                        self.setWondersBuilt(iGreece, self.getWondersBuilt(iGreece) + 1)
                                                if (self.getWondersBuilt(iGreece) == 4):                                    
                                                        self.setGoal(iGreece, 1, 1)
                                        if (iGameTurn > i250BC):                                   
                                                self.setGoal(iGreece, 1, 0)


and in def onTechAcquired(self, iTech, iPlayer):
Spoiler :

PHP:
                elif (iPlayer == iGreece):
                        if (pGreece.isAlive()):
                                if (self.getGoal(iGreece, 0) == -1): #eof error???
                                        if (iTech == con.iLiterature):
                                                self.setGreekTechs(0, 1)
                                                for iCiv in range(iNumPlayers):
                                                        if (iCiv != iGreece):
                                                                if (gc.getTeam(gc.getPlayer(iCiv).getTeam()).isHasTech(iTech) == True):
                                                                        self.setGreekTechs(0, 0)
                                        elif (iTech == con.iDrama):
                                                self.setGreekTechs(1, 1)
                                                for iCiv in range(iNumPlayers):
                                                        if (iCiv != iGreece):
                                                                if (gc.getTeam(gc.getPlayer(iCiv).getTeam()).isHasTech(iTech) == True):
                                                                        self.setGreekTechs(1, 0)
                                        elif (iTech == con.iPhilosophy):
                                                self.setGreekTechs(2, 1)
                                                for iCiv in range(iNumPlayers):
                                                        if (iCiv != iGreece):
                                                                if (gc.getTeam(gc.getPlayer(iCiv).getTeam()).isHasTech(iTech) == True):
                                                                        self.setGreekTechs(2, 0)
                                        print ("self.getGreekTechs", self.getGreekTechs(0), self.getGreekTechs(1), self.getGreekTechs(2))
                                        if (self.getGreekTechs(0) == 1 and self.getGreekTechs(1) == 1 and self.getGreekTechs(2) == 1):
                                                self.setGoal(iGreece, 0, 1)
                                        elif (self.getGreekTechs(0) == 0 or self.getGreekTechs(1) == 0 or self.getGreekTechs(2) == 0):
                                                self.setGoal(iGreece, 0, 0)



Then we can discuss what it should be the UHV for Byz.

I'm pretty sure that reconquering the near east should be a target for the UHV.
Other stuff I don't know.
Maybe Constantinople to get legendary culture in XXXXAD ... or something like that.
 
Yes, after Rhyes next major update, which he said wouldn't be long.

Cheers,
TDK
 
Byzantine Historical Victories

Retake the Roman Empire (Spain, France, England, Carthage and hold onto their lands) No date, this will be hard enough.

Build Hagia Sophia

Make sure Christian Influence is 40%

These sounded like good ideas.
 
Byzantine Historical Victories

Retake the Roman Empire (Spain, France, England, Carthage and hold onto their lands) No date, this will be hard enough.

Build Hagia Sophia

Make sure Christian Influence is 40%

These sounded like good ideas.

Maybe, for your first UHV, it could be slightly altered to: Retake Spain, Italy and Southern France and hold onto their lands by 1305 AD?

Other than that, I agree completly wth your UHVs.
 
Byzantine Historical Victories

Retake the Roman Empire (Spain, France, England, Carthage and hold onto their lands) No date, this will be hard enough.

Build Hagia Sophia

Make sure Christian Influence is 40%

These sounded like good ideas.

I would say retake Italy, North Africa (Egypt + Numidia), and south-eastern Spain, as those were the areas retaken by Justinian's renovatio imperii. As for a date, it all depends on when the Byzantines spawn. Ideally they'd spawn at around 476AD, but it depends.

The Hagia Sophia is fine, but it might even be too easy.

I'm assuming you mean worldwide Christianity? Even without the player helping it along, Christianity often spreads to at least 40% of the world, considering that European cities grow to be rather big. Maybe something having to do with control Constantinople during 1453AD (the date the Ottomans captured it), or controlling parts of Anatolia?
 
Constantinople as the most cultured city in the world by 1450 would be better than building the Hagia Sophia.
 
Well I was thinking something a bit more challenging than Justinian's renovatio imperii. I went along with the map of Byzantium in Agent of Byzantium, where, due to a Muslim free world, the Byzantines could focus on recapturing territories. And, where, in Justinian's renovatio imperii would only put you up against independents and Spain, Agent of Byzantium's path would force you to battle the Spanish, and France, and Germans, if you don't capture Rome early enough and they spawn and capture it.

Also, I think that Persia should still be around, seeing as it is the only Empire to really challenge the Byzantines. And, in reality, as I'm sure many of you know, the Byzantines and Persians were locked in a war that pevented a stronger Byzantine responce to the Arab threat. This way, with the Persans around, the Arabs could be in a better position, giving a war between the Byzantines and Persians occurs.

I second Metal's suggestion. And Positronic's suggestion about a 476 A.D. spawn is good as well. Perhpas the same could be implimented for the Persians?
 
Well then Persia shouldn't be a playable civ (all it's UHVs would have been lost anyway).
Constantinople having the highest culture in 1450 is a really good critera for a UHV, since it implies not only investing in it's culture but also in keeping it even after the Turks spawn, while also being an historically correct UHV, which means Byzantium only needs 1 more historically correct UHV and another not correct.
I don't think conquering lands in Europe fits. Perhaps just keeping the cities in northern Africa (including Egypt, and retaking of Memphis). With both the Arabs and Persians harassing you and later the Ottomans it should be difficult enough (and don't forget about the barbs in Africa!)
That would be the a-historical UHV critera, The Byzantine Empire should control those lands by, say, 1500 AD (note that this doesn't include Anatolia and Greece).
Now for 3rd UHV, I'm not sure if it would be historically correct, but maybe 60% Christianity? One can't prove it didn't happen some time in history...
If that doesn't fit, Maybe something to toughen the 2 criteras I've suggested, while being very unique? I'm thinking: "Don't discover a technology until 1500 AD" I'm not sure if that's historically correct, but it could be changed to "Don't discover Gunpowder, <insert major tech here>, insert major tech here> by 1500 AD", so that when a tech is discovered the Byzantines will automatically lose the UHV.
However if the Byzantine player or AI will lower the slider down to 0%, he would have a huge stockpile of gold...
What do you guys think?
 
For a military goal I would rather have eleminate the Turks or control the Eastern Roman Empire circa 480 A.D. and hold it until Turkish spawn?
 
For a military goal I would rather have eleminate the Turks or control the Eastern Roman Empire circa 480 A.D. and hold it until Turkish spawn?

As a replacement for the renovatio imperii? I think recapturing Italy, Spain, and North Africa is more challenging than simply holding on to Greece, Anatolia, and the one/two cities in the near east.
 
Well then Persia shouldn't be a playable civ (all it's UHVs would have been lost anyway).
Constantinople having the highest culture in 1450 is a really good critera for a UHV, since it implies not only investing in it's culture but also in keeping it even after the Turks spawn, while also being an historically correct UHV, which means Byzantium only needs 1 more historically correct UHV and another not correct.
I don't think conquering lands in Europe fits. Perhaps just keeping the cities in northern Africa (including Egypt, and retaking of Memphis). With both the Arabs and Persians harassing you and later the Ottomans it should be difficult enough (and don't forget about the barbs in Africa!)
That would be the a-historical UHV critera, The Byzantine Empire should control those lands by, say, 1500 AD (note that this doesn't include Anatolia and Greece).
Now for 3rd UHV, I'm not sure if it would be historically correct, but maybe 60% Christianity? One can't prove it didn't happen some time in history...
If that doesn't fit, Maybe something to toughen the 2 criteras I've suggested, while being very unique? I'm thinking: "Don't discover a technology until 1500 AD" I'm not sure if that's historically correct, but it could be changed to "Don't discover Gunpowder, <insert major tech here>, insert major tech here> by 1500 AD", so that when a tech is discovered the Byzantines will automatically lose the UHV.
However if the Byzantine player or AI will lower the slider down to 0%, he would have a huge stockpile of gold...
What do you guys think?


I like the last idea, very much so. this would deffinatly keep the Byzantines from getting too far ahead. I still like my idea though (I know it'll never fly, but come on, Agent of Byzantium is a good book :lol:) But I do think that Justinian's renovatio imperii has to be adressed, because it did play an important part in history during the time it took place.
 
It's just that in the 600's there aren't any cities to conquer in Spain, and Rome has quite a high cultural defense bonus %.
Napoleon's conquests where also very important during the time it took place, but they where left out of the UHV's I guess because France can't handle being at war with so many civs at the same time, and the same goes for the Byzantine and the indy's.
 
Well the Byzantine's, although having 2 enemies on it's borders, are still a technological power house. So, they're more advanced, or so it appears. But with a few pre placed cities...

See, this is why I wish sometimes that the Germanic kingdoms would be included. That way, they'd be more obsstacles for the Byzantines: The Vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, ect. But a dream is mearly a dream, no?
 
As a replacement for the renovatio imperii? I think recapturing Italy, Spain, and North Africa is more challenging than simply holding on to Greece, Anatolia, and the one/two cities in the near east.

You're right we need an expansionist goal to stop the player from turtling. It's just hard to find a balanced one.
 
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