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Modscenario: Playable Byzantines, 610AD.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by TDK, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. Shawmane

    Shawmane Chieftain

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    Perhaps, perhaps not. Take guilds away from them combined with having to research music and it would be tough unless you bulbed with an Engineer I think. Couple that with the possible need of a GA for the culture goal and all of the building you will have to do (8 temples/2 Cathedrals + Hagia Sophia) and starting with a corrupted GP pool in Alexandria (GM/GS) and the need for tons of military and I think it would be tough as nails to do. Without guilds and no immediate access to horses = no extra cataphracts. No longbows except what they start with (if any?). Your military would be a couple of cataphracts, a handful of crossbows and pikes and a couple of trebuchets, with the need to conquer on multiple fronts (Italy, Africa, Near east) and conquer fast.

    Also, I have attacked the Turks on their spawn as the Arabs, Greeks and Romans and they still take units from me and continue to do so...even after they have no cities and no more settlers. Probably a bug heh, but still...
     
  2. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

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    You destroy their initial stack and then move all your troops out of their spawn zone. What year do you expect them to spawn on? You will start off with the African possessions and the Near east already. The goal is to keep them, and depending when the game starts possibly conquer some of the Western Roman Empire.
     
  3. Shawmane

    Shawmane Chieftain

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    They Byzantines should spawn at 600 A.D. under the conditions that current Byzantine holdings would be modified to where you would only have Constantinople, Athens, Alexandria (Egypt) and 1 of the cities in Anatolia (Trabzon?). The rest would be independents or Barbarian and at war with you forcing you to conquer at least 4 more cities just to complete the cathedrals goal.

    Jersualem should flip to Arabia (it doesn't in the 600 start) facilitating a Byzantine Crusade against Arabia (1st and 3rd goal oriented) to conquer Jerusalem (+ the city that's on the way to Jerusalem (Aleppo?) and Cairo (which flips to Arabia). You would have to continue into Arabia to get them to collapse as well. At the same time you would have to head to Italy and take Venice and/or Rome just to get the 8 cities to make the 2 cathedrals. All the while building the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople instead of more troops and hoping to generate enough culture by 1000 A.D. in Cons to get the most culture.

    When the Turks spawn, you would have to have a large enough force left to take them out either right when they spawn or within a very few turns of them spawning. Perhaps augment the Turkish spawn to include a Janissary or 2 and the deadline for their destruction would be tough to meet.

    All the while trying to fend off your Western and Eastern holdings from Central Asian/African Barbarians and the Europeans that spawn (and may spawn at war with you in the new patch).

    I can't try it out for myself until it's ready for 3.19. That is unless it already is updated to 3.19. (?)
     
  4. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

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    But, don't you get a free GA from researching music? The reason why China doesn't get one is because they start with it already. Guilds is also kind of weird not to give the Byzantines, I think they did have "guilds" working in Constantinople.
    Research rate should be amazingly high with Byzantine, as they have Alexandria right from the start, along with Athens, Constantinople, and a few more coastal cities.
    Also I think this hasn't been discussed about: Should the Byzantines start with some civics already? I'm thinking HR, Vassalage (or buracracy or however it's spelled if it won't give them too much instability), (don't really know what's historically correct for the labor civics), Decentralization (Mercantilism is kinda historically correct but them knowing Banking isn't), Theo, and Subjugation.
    What do you think?
    Edit: the latest version of RFC works with 3.19
     
  5. Lean

    Lean Prince

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    @Shawmane
    However, that wouldn't be historically accurate. If they start in 600 AD they shouldstart with all their posessions, as they had in 600 A.D. One goal should reflect Justinian's conquests. Another should be Make Constantinople the most cultured city by 1150 AD. As for the last...I'm not all too sure, but it should probibly reflect the building of the Hagia Sophia and the spread of Othrodoxy (Christianity in the game.)
     
  6. Shawmane

    Shawmane Chieftain

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    If China starts with music then you wont get a GA the Byzantines when you research it. The exclusion of guilds is merely to slow the Byzantines down a bit (ie. no new cataphracts, no direct to gunpowder research), though they would still start with a couple of Cataphracts in their military.

    They should have HR, Slavery, Castes, OR, Theocracy, and Pacifism available for Civs, but NOT start switched to anything (like Egypts UP).

    I was referring to this mod in particular. I have RFC updated to 3.19 already :)
     
  7. Shawmane

    Shawmane Chieftain

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    While technically correct, losing a few cities would make it tougher as a playable civ to reach the UHV, and before 600 A.D. all hell was breaking loose for the Byzantines all over their Empire to various groups from the North and Europe and the Sassanids to the East whom they were constantly at war with (thus represented by the loss of a few holdings + the Arab spawn 2 turns later that would give the Arabs parts of the old Empire as well (Cairo/Jerusalem). Technically, they should start with all of Justinians conquests already, since by 600 A.D., he had been dead half a century.

    IMO, starting with enough cities to build 2 Cathedrals (only having to spread Christianity to them) is far too easy for a UHV condition. At least with a spawn as I described you would have to conquer/settle 4 more cities.

    If their UP were similar to the Arabs (State religion + a Hippodrome in this case) it would alleviate the need for missionaries.

    To me, the current UP is kinda useless since you a.) already have the GL in Alex for extra coastal trade routes , b.) would be at war with everyone you know (so no Trade Routes with those cities) and c.) would start with fewer cities than you currently do.

    I dunno, until I have been able to play around with it I can't give a more informed version of what I would like to see for the playable Byzantine Empire.
     
  8. Steb

    Steb King

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    On the first page of the thread, the idea of making a UHV based on controlling wine resources has been suggested, and I like it. There's wine in southern Turkey, Greece and Crete, which are easy spots, but if you want more you'll have to get into Italy, Sicily, Spain or France. This would consequently also be a military goal, as you would have to reconquer old parts of the Roman Empire (Justinian's conquests?).

    Additionally, wine was very relevant to the Byzantines; from Wikipedia's page on Byzantine cuisine:
    Other than that, there should probably be a religious goal. Two cathedrals would be nice, but it also includes a part of military so it could be redundant with the wine. It would be easier than the Chinese, too, because they have to build four, not two. Another option would be the speading of Chistianity to some percentage.

    The third UHV could be either cultural or scientific. I don't think it's particularly fitting to make them a militaristic oriented civ, as they did little to expand after Justinian (well, maybe under the Macedonians, but the empire was still far smaller than under Justinian).

    By the way I haven't even tried the mod, so you can just ignore me completely... I just wanted to share my thoughts. :p
     
  9. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

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    The UHV's should be altered to match the historical conditions of the start date for the Byzantines, not the other way around.
     
  10. Lean

    Lean Prince

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    Exactly.
     
  11. TDK

    TDK Emperor

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    UPDATED to 3.19(1186) in the OP.

    Added new UP: Greek Fire, and made various adjustments to gameplay and general coding.

    I really REALLY like the idea of building Cathedrals as one of the UHVs. I think another one should be to secure 2 Silk as that would make for exciting interaction with the east(silk road or settlement or war).

    TDK
     
  12. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

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    The UP sounds great and is historical, my only question is how useful it will be. I say this in consideration of the AI's weakness in naval combat. The time when the AI really starts using ships is in the Colonization period which is in the Renaissance, and thus voids the UP.
     
  13. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    I think their UP should last all ages. IIRC Greek fire was lost with the fall of Byzantium, or at least its decline, it is therefor logical that if they didn't decline and fall they might not have lost its secrets. If so then I think the UP should give a +25% bonus to all wood-based ships, or something similar to that. So it would still work of a frigate but not an Ironclad.
     
  14. TDK

    TDK Emperor

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    Some general answers:
    -The scenario gives you control of Byzantium as Rhye created them, which means I don't like adding or removing buildings, techs, cities or units.
    -A pre-610AD start would be impossible(see previous marathon thread on playable Byzantines).
    -The suggestion of having the Byzantines not discover techs as UHV seems counter intuitive to me.

    I like it, but Byzantines start with Literature. It seems Rhye removed Machinery from the Byzantine starting techs, which should equalize the field.

    This will go in there for sure, good for making sure the Byz expend production on non-military purposes. What year?

    This has potential, but for Crete a Fortress could be constructed so no settlement needed.
    I do think a Byzantine Silk objective would be fun as well, to simulate a victory where Byzantines control trade from the Far East instead leaving that to the western seafaring nations.

    One of the criticisms of the previous version was that it was "to easy", so I made it quite weak, but not useless(Byz start with 8(!) seafood).

    I could argue that Gunpowder would obsolete Greek Fire. What you suggest is not easy to do, it would require a new promotion that is beyond my skills.
     
  15. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    I think they need a small stability boost. I got unstable by 860 mainly due to -20 in the expansion section. I only lost one city (Jerusalem) which I retook 2 turns later and only built one city.

    EDIT: Playing later into the game and stability is still a problem with -100 in my expansion civic for what I would consider basic byzantine territory...

    Also you haven't changed the file containing the Long Descriptions for Byzantine, mine is currently the 'Hellenic Democracy'.
     
  16. TDK

    TDK Emperor

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    Updated in the OP with UHVs!

    I hope it will be fun and a challenge(at least on emperor). Let me know if something needs to be changed.

    TDK
     
  17. TDK

    TDK Emperor

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    Damn! Maybe it's to difficult? I just missed the 2 Cathedrals UHV on monarch because a city declared independence.

    Anybody out there with better luck than me? I would love to hear your thoughts on the UHVs.

    TDK
     
  18. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

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    TDK, I tried to play the scenario and I cant play. Two python exceptions pop up and even when I press okay they come up again. The game is running, but the pop ups wont let me do anything.

    At the bottom is a screenshot of the exceptions.

    Edition: Okay never mind... I had to click Okay on the exceptions maybe thirty times but they disappear. I will see if there are any errors while I play.
     

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  19. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

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    I played up to 1000 C.E. and was unable to complete the first UHV condition. I had built eight temples and one Cathedral, but ran out of time to build the second. I think the issue is that the land is not built up enough, or that not enough workers are provided on start.

    Concerning Arabia it was very easy to retain Jerusalem and even captured Cairo. Three Cataphracts and two pikemen are enough for this endeavor
     
  20. TDK

    TDK Emperor

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    Edit: Fixed typo, you should get 3 SILK, not dyes.

    Yeah, there are Python issues but they are just in the start, probably due to some scripted events that are already executed in this scenario(like founding of Islam).

    Let me know if any pop up later in the game.

    Monarch or Emperor? I had enough time in my game for the Cathedrals, but a city declared independence and I couldn't recapture it in time(rebel Cataphract:cry:).

    I was also able to re-capture Jerusalem with heavy losses, but I lost Alexandria in my game.
     

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