[MODULE]D&D Druids

[rocklikeafool]

All in all, I like the idea a lot.

Sounds interesting... Although Natural Spell might be a bit late to really do much good.

Agreed.

Imho, by lvl 16 (assuming you even get there, it's very possible, just a pain in the ass), this really doesn't do much. I'd say make this available at lvl 12 or 14.

 

[WarKirby]

Did everyone miss that natural spell will also give you control to jump in and out of beast form at will ?without it, the conversion is only at will in one direction, you can change into a beast anytime, but you can't change back to human (or to any other beast) at will. it will have a 30% chance or so to wear off per turn.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Very cool idea.


Honestly, druids don't even need unique spells if you go with this setup. They could just have access to the nature line.

 

[HadesScorn]

An amusing thought: I almost never get wolves when trying for the Grand Menagerie [probably because they all suicide before I hit animal handling]. Could I cage a druid? Teehehehe.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Did everyone miss that natural spell will also give you control to jump in and out of beast form at will ?without it, the conversion is only at will in one direction, you can change into a beast anytime, but you can't change back to human (or to any other beast) at will. it will have a 30% chance or so to wear off per turn.

Yes...

But how often does one get a unit that's lvl 16? Not often.

 

[WarKirby]

Yes...

But how often does one get a unit that's lvl 16? Not often.

exactly!

It's not intended to be easily gained.

But then, how often do you get to run around with an unstoppable Str16 juggernaut ?I bet bear form will be good for levelling quite quickly.

That said, I get lv16 units quite often now. Since we got commanders with their +50% xp leadership bonus, and since the xp required after lv13 became flat, reaching high levels isn't so difficult as it might seem.

 

[Breez]

That said, I get lv16 units quite often now. Since we got commanders with their +50% xp leadership bonus, and since the xp required after lv13 became flat, reaching high levels isn't so difficult as it might seem.

Which brings up 2 counter points -

A: Should a as described in this module be able to follow a commander if they are unpredictable by nature? Isn't there a change that animals will not follow commanders coming up?

B: With Enraged (especially if you increase the chance to enrage) will they stay with their commander enough to benefit from him if they do remain able to follow one? (IE will it matter?)

 

[WarKirby]

I believe Loyalty still works on beasts, does it not ?

There are plenty of other form options besides bear, too

 

[Grand Seeker]

I enjoy this very much. Wildshape was my favorite trick in D&D 3.5. I enjoyed the versality of the wildshape ability a lot and the wildshape I see here is focused around versality.

Just a few comments:

The panther: marksman is in my view way to good at attacking cities.
Is it possible to give the panther marksman promotion only when attacking forrestes & jungles?

I enjoy the versality forms like the hawk.
-Given that it is not possible (or hard) to change forms two times in the same turn, the rebase ability could be nice and balanced.

Maybe I would like to see some forms able to cross the seas earlier. Maybe a simple
amphibius form with 2 in movement could be nice?

 

[WarKirby]

The panther: marksman is in my view way to good at attacking cities.
Is it possible to give the panther marksman promotion only when attacking forrestes & jungles?

Druids have a built in 20% cioty attack penalty, that will be kept for all forms. Or could possibly be increased for some, like the panther, if it seems warranted

I enjoy the versality forms like the hawk.
-Given that it is not possible (or hard) to change forms two times in the same turn, the rebase ability could be nice and balanced.

As far as I'm aware, the rebase ability is something special for air domain units. I don;t know of any way to specifically allow that ability. It's just something that aircraft can do naturally. Hawks in FFH basically use the same code as fighter planes in BTS.

I think making a unit like that causes some issues with combat, though. And also movement. Might have noticed that you can't move a hawk around manually, only do recon missions. I think that might be more trouble than it's worth

Maybe I would like to see some forms able to cross the seas earlier. Maybe a simple
amphibius form with 2 in movement could be nice?

If you want to cross the sea earlier than amphibious form, you could always.... take a ride on a boat

Being freed from that restriction/vulnerability is a pretty powerful ability, as any unit on a boat instantly dies if said boat is sunk.

 

[Grand Seeker]

Druids have a built in 20% city attack penalty, that will be kept for all forms. Or could possibly be increased for some, like the panther, if it seems warranted

The problem with a city attack penelty is that penelties and bonuses in civ 4 are additive, not multiplicative. So the penelty has to be quit huge to realy dissable it from city attacking. The assasin has a 50% city attack penalty but still makes for a very powerfull city attacker! A level 5 (+100%) assasin at str 6 attacking a city (-50%) gives str 9. Multiplicative bonuses and penelties would have been much better but thats hard to do anything with I guess.

If you realy want to criple the panther from attacking a city, you realy need atleast 75% city attack penelty. (personly I would choose 100% city attack penelty cuz getting +100% bonuses is not that difficult) But if something along these lines is done, I would realy enjoy the panther.

As far as I'm aware, the rebase ability is something special for air domain units. I don;t know of any way to specifically allow that ability. It's just something that aircraft can do naturally. Hawks in FFH basically use the same code as fighter planes in BTS.

I think making a unit like that causes some issues with combat, though. And also movement. Might have noticed that you can't move a hawk around manually, only do recon missions. I think that might be more trouble than it's worth

I know. But you could make two flying forms. One that is identical to the regular hawks in all ways (making it a air-domain unit) except that it has a probability to transform back into a druid, and another which has high movement, flying promotion, some minor combat abilities etc. etc. The rebase function would not be overpowered cuz the druid would have to wait untill it transform back into a druid before it can do anything usefull.

Being freed from that restriction/vulnerability is a pretty powerful ability, as any unit on a boat instantly dies if said boat is sunk.

Agree. (but I want that power... )

 

[WarKirby]

The problem with a city attack penelty is that penelties and bonuses in civ 4 are additive, not multiplicative. So the penelty has to be quit huge to realy dissable it from city attacking. The assasin has a 50% city attack penalty but still makes for a very powerfull city attacker! A level 5 (+100%) assasin at str 6 attacking a city (-50%) gives str 9. Multiplicative bonuses and penelties would have been much better but thats hard to do anything with I guess.

I don't see that as a problem. An assassin who reaches lv6 deserves to overcome that penalty. Otherwise, levelling up wouldn't be much fun if it didn't let you solve problems.

As a side note, I've never seen the logic in a city attack penalty for assassins. If anything,shouldn't they have a bonus? Cities have more people, are easier to blend in with. Houses have drains, beams on the side to climb up, etc. I think assassinating someone in a city would be a lot easier than in an empty field.

If you realy want to criple the panther from attacking a city, you realy need atleast 75% city attack penelty. (personly I would choose 100% city attack penelty cuz getting +100% bonuses is not that difficult) But if something along these lines is done, I would realy enjoy the panther.

See above. The purpose of penalties in certain actions, is usually to define a general role for a unit, not to permanantly lock them into behaving a certain way. I might make it bigger than 20%, but going as high as 75% is unlikely

I know. But you could make two flying forms. One that is identical to the regular hawks in allways (making in air-domain) except that it has a probability to transform back into a druid, and another which has high movement, flying promotion, some minor combat abilities etc. etc. The rebase function would not be overpowered cuz the druid would have to wait untill it transform back into a druid before it can do anything usefull.

What would be the point in having two forms? seems like more to confuse the user. I was actually wondering if I have too many already, and thinking of cutting the Stag form.

Rebasing IS overpowered, even when hawks do it. We'll probably be removing the rebase ability from hawks in future, or find some way to limit it within their movement radius. The ability to teleport across the map to any city you have open borders to, is something which should be reserved for Pass Through the Ether, and after constructing fairly expensive dimensional gates.

 

[Grand Seeker]

As for assasins, I might agree with you that logically assasins should not have a city-attack penelty.

But the main problem with the marksman promotion is that assasins is often by far the best attacking units available. And assasins vipes out entires armies. Having mages+assasins is a far better combination that having longbowmen, siege-engines and champions or whatever combination you have. Since assasin can attack units which are almost dead, they almost never loose battles and they keep gaining XP. And if one of your assins do die, well then you can atleast take revenge with your next assasin.

In sort, the city attack penelty is there cuz marksman promotion is overpowered. I enjoy the assasin and the promotion is fun, but marksman promotion could realy need a better counter. An example could be a divination spell wich removes the marksman promotion and replace it with a promotion with penelties or something. For example a spell wich forces the assasins to defend the stack first would be nice

And in this example, even if you give the panther -50% city attack penelty, I would actually say that the panther form is still far better than the bear form when it comes to attacking cities. And lore wise, countery to the assasin, you dont want to make the druid a perfect city-raider.

But letting it be the perfect forreste/jungle attacker is something completly different.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

As far as I'm aware, the rebase ability is something special for air domain units. I don;t know of any way to specifically allow that ability. It's just something that aircraft can do naturally. Hawks in FFH basically use the same code as fighter planes in BTS.

I think making a unit like that causes some issues with combat, though. And also movement. Might have noticed that you can't move a hawk around manually, only do recon missions. I think that might be more trouble than it's worth



.

Might be easier to have the flying form be a griffon or hippogriff. Lot fewer problems that way. Unless of course you are simply in love with the hawk art....

 

[WarKirby]

simply in love with the hawk art....

That.

Also, griffons are less "wild beast" and more "mythical creature". It just doesn't feel right, you know?

I'll probably use a slightly enlarged version of the hawk art. Altough there is still the issue of combat to contend with. Might just make hawk form non combat, for travel/recon/escape only.

 

[Valkrionn]

Could always use the hawk 'hero' from AoI...

 

[deadliver]

I like bear! Very cool idea. Druids should get a bonus if they are near a nature node though

 

[Fanghorn]

Those forms seem to be a bit overpowered to me as there are not many flaws in your shapes. The Aquatic form sounds a bit unsuitable to me for that kind of druid you are talking about. As they are more like water than nature (there might be druids able to control elemental domains though). Id suggest to make it some kind of big snake that can cross rivers without movement/attack penalty and have them do some kind of entangling attack that negates the withdraw chance of your enemy.

 

[WarKirby]

Need a quick idea.

I'm blocking spellcasting while transformed, via a seperate promotion which just does the spellcasting. IT's meant to symbolize the druid's mind being overcome by animal instincts and urges, making him/her unable to focus. Where Natural spell represents a mastery of the art, allowing one to maintain mental focus. Natural spell will just be a promotion that removes/prevents aquiring the spell blocking one, and also will be checked in some python parts.

But anyways, I need a name for this spell-blocking promotion. I've already decided on an icon for it. See attached. The current idea I have is Clouded Mind, but it doesn't really seem to fit. Does anyone have a better idea for a short and simple promotion name ?

 

[WarKirby]

Those forms seem to be a bit overpowered to me as there are not many flaws in your shapes.

As mentioned, numbers like strength values and such, are certainly open to discussion. If things seem too powerful, feel free to point those out, suggest more suitable/balanced values. This thread is here for discussion and feedback

The Aquatic form sounds a bit unsuitable to me for that kind of druid you are talking about. As they are more like water than nature (there might be druids able to control elemental domains though). Id suggest to make it some kind of big snake that can cross rivers without movement/attack penalty and have them do some kind of entangling attack that negates the withdraw chance of your enemy.

I'll admit, I stole the idea from WoW, but it's grown on me. Being able to go across the sea is a very fun mechanic, I think. Which is slightly more important than properly fitting. I've probably shot FFH lore to pieces already anyway

The main aim here, is Flexibility. As the embodiment of neutrality, druids should generally be a hybrid that's good at everything, able to adapt to any situation. So the ability to kill stuff, sneak around, cross oceans, etc. All fits with the general plan, I think. Reflecting on it though, specifics like the bear form's strength might be too much. They should be good at everything, but not AS good as someone who specializes in one thing. I'll probably reduce that to +6 or so. Or maybe reduce the defense farther and only keep high attack. Uncertain. Give me your thoughts!

Also as a side note for those worried about it, I do have ideas for working on paladins and eidolons too. More the former than the latter actually. This module alone will probably make druids the best out of the three by a fair bit, until I get around to tweaking the good and evil units too. But that's another topic, and another project. Perhaps after this.