[Module in Development]The Myu Collective

[azzedar]

ah, like that story too. im just not sure about the evil leader you want to add with that background in mind

duergar have always been psionic or at least slightly magic...they have been abducted and experimented on by mind flayers, guess that tells all... when psionics were added in one of the additional rulebooks they have been reworked - although abilities have stayed mostly the same, they have jsut been refitted to the new rules - which suited them very well, as it has always been kept in mind when they were created.
of course just if you'd used the addition psionic rules... but just because in the core stuff there is no psi in d&d a all. not even for mind flayers... everything handled via spell-like abilities and magic.

all 3.5 of course

/edit:
found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duergar_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

Psionics

The core Expanded Psionics Handbook and the open System Reference Document identify Duergar as naturally psionic, with a racial bonus to power points. Psi-like abilities include invisibility and expansion.

 

[EugeneStyles]

ah, like that story too. im just not sure about the evil leader you want to add with that background in mind

The evil leader represents a philosophical return to the Age of Magic. In addition, under him, the psionic talents of the common Myu citizen are suppressed - it is a crime to practice mental disciplines without a license, enforced by inquisitors who have made the grave sin (and some say, foolish error), of combining divine and psionic powers.

duergar have always been psionic or at least slightly magic...they have been abducted and experimented on by mind flayers, guess that tells all... when psionics were added in one of the additional rulebooks they have been reworked - although abilities have stayed mostly the same, they have jsut been refitted to the new rules - which suited them very well, as it has always been kept in mind when they were created.

In the "new rules", they are more similar to the way I always envisioned them (I'm not saying it's right, but I just never knew they were supposed to be psionic). The description in the MM says "Distant kin to dwarves, duergar carry the taint of a long association with infernal forces. Although they share a love of mining and metalwork with their steadfast dwarf cousins, duergar are uniformly treacherous and cruel." Their only spell-like ability, by default, is "Infernal Quills".

Of course, again, there were no psionics in 4e at the time, so I'm assuming the newer MM has or will have some psionic duergar, but they don't seem to be any more attuned to it than any other race.

 

[azzedar]

well, as 4e seems to clearly say that their powers come from some infernal source, seems they redone them again. cant say im unhappy/happy with it. just reminds me a bit of the warhammer chaos dwarves, but well, from what i heard 4e has been much more inspired by other fanatasy worlds anyway. guess soon or later ill have to look at the new stuff myself

will the leader itself be a relict of that "beeing cursed" time or just have fallen again? im a bit unsure of them falling, beeing cursed/exiled, then redeemed just to "fall" again... they just dont learn, eh? ^^
and, a bit practical for kilmorph that the (n)everending winter came? perfect time to clean up the mess in front of your own home door =) ... e.g. throwing those little b*st*rds out, practicing forbidden stuff: die in the cold you unfaithful lustlings!

.. just kidding. i like the story.

 

[EugeneStyles]

and, a bit practical for kilmorph that the (n)everending winter came? perfect time to clean up the mess in front of your own home door =) ... e.g. throwing those little b*st*rds out, practicing forbidden stuff: die in the cold you unfaithful lustlings!

Heh, more like, "Oh noes, the Age of Ice is here. Please protect us, Kilmorph!"
"WTH, you guys haven't worshipped me for like a hundred years, now you want my help?"
"Umm, we were busy. Really busy. And, umm... Mammon doesn't want to help us. Turns out he's kind of a jerk. Come on, just give us a place to stay."
"Sorry, you guys are screwed. Have fun with your world covered in ice. Maybe Mulcarn will help you."
---
"Okay, we're back, and like, a bunch of us died. We can't handle this ice thing - also, no one likes us. Please, please, please take pity on us."
"Oh, I can't stay mad at you guys - go to the underdark and think about what you've done."

The evil leader represents a faction that has never truly repented and resents the exile that Kilmorph put them through. Kind of like Germany after World War I.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I am not any sort of fluff expert but something about that seems strange to me.
Kilmorph is the goddess of hard work and earning your happy ending your self so to speak. I wonder if she would just provide charity like that.

It seems far more likely to me that she would simply abandon them and let them go the way of the Machinos. (Maybe mind controlling animals and slaves etc.) The good ones would be the ones that want to repent and the bad ones the ones that want to stay evil because of, well why to heck not.

 

[azzedar]

hehe, like that dialogue, hope it finds its way into the pedia =p

dunno if that helps, but the now-gone-or-at-least-into-nonimportance-crippled-kahd had a concept that decided they mechanic/flavorwise orientation within the game - would that fit into your concept? merging your evil leader and the good one into one person that and/or actually at some point of the game to decide which way to go? kilmorph or mammon.
nevertheless the rotting kahd carcass has surely some inspiration to offer for this concept, just ready to be eviscerated since they followed mammon as well.

 

[EugeneStyles]

I am not any sort of fluff expert but something about that seems strange to me.
Kilmorph is the goddess of hard work and earning your happy ending your self so to speak. I wonder if she would just provide charity like that.

Sure, if you think it's charity to have to fight these things for survival:

dunno if that helps, but the now-gone-or-at-least-into-nonimportance-crippled-kahd had a concept that decided they mechanic/flavorwise orientation within the game - would that fit into your concept? merging your evil leader and the good one into one person that and/or actually at some point of the game to decide which way to go? kilmorph or mammon.

To be honest, that's probably a good idea, but I don't see myself doing it. I never liked the Kahd, so the mechanic is kind of tainted by that . It seems a little more difficult that what I want to do, at least as a first pass. And, I like to leave gameplay more open than that. Like most civs, you can choose the good leader and still end up following Ashen Veil - how that fits the story is up to the player to figure out.

On the other hand, I reserve the right to change my mind and eventually implement your suggestion.

 

[Viatos]

I am not any sort of fluff expert but something about that seems strange to me.
Kilmorph is the goddess of hard work and earning your happy ending your self so to speak. I wonder if she would just provide charity like that.

It seems far more likely to me that she would simply abandon them and let them go the way of the Machinos. (Maybe mind controlling animals and slaves etc.) The good ones would be the ones that want to repent and the bad ones the ones that want to stay evil because of, well why to heck not.

Kilmorph's a nice goddess, though, who expressly loves her children. Even parents who believe in hard work can forgive their slacker children out of love - "the prodigal son" is a Biblical parable, but it also happens to mirror some real-life psychology.

Also, she turned them away the first time; that gives them an undisclosed period of time to work super-hard to survive and get back into her good graces again. After they just couldn't hack it, it makes sense that she'd help them out.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Got some stuff done and added to the first post. More or less decided on the melee line: Medium, Telepath, Veteran. All are authorized to get Earth I (in addition to Mind I and Force I which are authorized by Psionic). Veteran has Channeling II, which allows the second level in each of those spheres. I'm probably going to add a Tier IV UU with Channeling III. Probably on Berserker (?). Psionic no longer blocks Mithril weapons. So your melee units will be pretty weak through the mid game (but make up for it with awesome spellcasting), but come back to full strength in the end game. To balance this, I plan to continue to give the melee line some elemental damage. Whether Psychic type is added or if it has to stay as Lightning damage, it means that late game units with magic resistance will have an advantage.

4 Psionic spells are done. Mutable Terrain can pick up and move any non-organic resource other than mana. Mind/Force gives a weak ranged attack, followed by a bombard. Mind I/Earth I gives a weaker (2 physical str, no collateral) version of fireball. Still planning on some Mind/Nature spells - though currently planned just for the Beastmaster UU, they might be populated throughout the recon line. Still open to ideas on other psionic spells.

Still undecided on the arcane line. The two main options so far are Arcane UU's represented by psionicists (Wilder or Mentalist, plus an archmage version), or else regular Arcane units and separate psionicists (probably on a different tech) that don't advance the same way but start with Mind 2/Force 2/Earth 2 and upgrade at lvl 6+ to a second UU.

So far there's a good leader, major, female, with Philosophical / Creative. Adds to the fact that the Myu get good early-game growth benefits by discounting some early buildings, increasing cultural spread, and doubling the GP benefit from Mind I.

And an evil leader, emergent, male, with TXT_KEY_UNNAMED_TRAIT that gives Psionic promotion to Divine units. Will probably also have Controlling.

 

[Viatos]

I'm probably going to add a Tier IV UU with Channeling III. Probably on Berserker (?).

Could have a kill-capable high-strength ranged attack with good collateral damage, but low attack and defense.

4 Psionic spells are done. Mutable Terrain can pick up and move any non-organic resource other than mana. Mind/Force gives a weak ranged attack, followed by a bombard. Mind I/Earth I gives a weaker (2 physical str, no collateral) version of fireball. Still planning on some Mind/Nature spells - though currently planned just for the Beastmaster UU, they might be populated throughout the recon line. Still open to ideas on other psionic spells.

Does Mutable Terrain declare war? The Mind I/Earth I thing sounds exceptionally boring, especially given you have lots of ranged already and don't really need this. Actually, even if you did, I'm pretty sure throwing Scouts at the enemy is gonna be less then impressive after turn, uh, 50. What about - say - a maze effect on a target tile that keeps it from being worked and 'mazes' (Grigori Sidequest code; unit does not reveal tiles and moves randomly each turn) the first non-allied unit to step on it, ending the effect?

Still undecided on the arcane line. The two main options so far are Arcane UU's represented by psionicists (Wilder or Mentalist, plus an archmage version), or else regular Arcane units and separate psionicists (probably on a different tech) that don't advance the same way but start with Mind 2/Force 2/Earth 2 and upgrade at lvl 6+ to a second UU.

I'd vote here for Arcane UUs, but using whatever you have planned for the separate line to be as interesting as possible.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Could have a kill-capable high-strength ranged attack with good collateral damage, but low attack and defense.

That sounds like a good idea.

Does Mutable Terrain declare war?

No (well, I haven't tested if it does, but I didn't set it to declare war so I see no reason why it should). It shouldn't have to, because you can only pick up resources from your own territory or unowned. You can drop resources in rival territory (I could potentially block this), but the spell is disallowed on any rival resources, even if you can't see them. This is one way to scout invisible resources, but it won't work for unowned or your own territory - in those, you can drop resources anywhere except on visible resources.

The Mind I/Earth I thing sounds exceptionally boring, especially given you have lots of ranged already and don't really need this. Actually, even if you did, I'm pretty sure throwing Scouts at the enemy is gonna be less then impressive after turn, uh, 50.

You may be right, but I like it for three reasons. a) Mind II/Earth II is pretty strong IMO, so it's okay if Mind I / Earth I is a little weaker. Especially since Mind I / Force I combined with Force II is very strong, but Mind II / Force II is only situationally useful. b) It gives your weak units access to a fireball-like spell. It's actually very strong for a Warrior (edit: oops, Scouts can't cast it), although it does require two promotions and leaves them weak in actual physical combat. It does gives you the option of ranged-then-stone vs. stone-then-attack (or various combinations with multiple units). c) I just like the idea of a psionic dwarf surrounded by floating earth motes that he sends flying at his enemies. I've been considering making Mind III / Earth III a Meteor-version of the same thing. It does get weaker much more quickly than Fireball, but at least it won't be as ineffective against bugged 100% fire-immune orcs!

What about - say - a maze effect on a target tile that keeps it from being worked and 'mazes' (Grigori Sidequest code; unit does not reveal tiles and moves randomly each turn) the first non-allied unit to step on it, ending the effect?

Hmm... interesting, although I can't imagine how to make the AI avoid those squares (and without making them visible and avoidable, I think it might be too strong?)... I already turned Mutable Landscape off for the AI, because I have no idea how to tell it to gather resources and move them near its cities... I have a vision of them casting it on already-worked resources, then suiciding the caster and losing the resource forever... Hmm... maybe I should make the mage automatically drop the resource on death? But I still don't want to overwrite existing resources.

 

[Viatos]

Hmm... interesting, although I can't imagine how to make the AI avoid those squares (and without making them visible and avoidable, I think it might be too strong?)... I already turned Mutable Landscape off for the AI, because I have no idea how to tell it to gather resources and move them near its cities... I have a vision of them casting it on already-worked resources, then suiciding the caster and losing the resource forever... Hmm... maybe I should make the mage automatically drop the resource on death? But I still don't want to overwrite existing resources.

Ah, in my mind it was invisible and thus unavoidable. It does require the collaboration of a kiting adept that can outrun the opposition and killer units that can pick off the wanderers - but you can already kite the AI into forts or terrain you can move through faster then they can, this is just another way to do that. Against players, they can check your adept and think tactically.

The spell would only be effective in a retreating pick-off, anyway, which is actually pretty risky if you don't have guards to keep up with the caster. It wouldn't aid an assault. Ideally, the spell would remove any existing maze, and be uncastable once triggered for the same duration as the resulting maze promotion.

 

[Calavente]

I fear for your axemen / champions combat-wise.
having them with 2less than neighbors (no iron weapons)
and only replacement is a 2 ball of mud...

for a warrior the ball of mud replaces the bronze/iron weapons. as 2strength vs 3 (warrior) or 2(scout) allows for some success or at least for some reasonnable damage, enough to weaken the opposite unit so your warrior can mop the fort.
On the other hand, 2 vs 4 (or 6)(axe) or vs 5 +50%(archer) or vs 8 (champion) : the ball of mud has a likely chance of doing 0 damage to the opponent, your axe/champ, being in effect a simple 4 (or 6) against a 6 (or 8) unit.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Ah, in my mind it was invisible and thus unavoidable.

Okay, you've mostly convinced me. However, it does seem difficult to do in python (at least for one of my limited python experience). Will try to do it, but likely won't make the first version.

I fear for your axemen / champions combat-wise.
having them with 2less than neighbors (no iron weapons)
and only replacement is a 2 ball of mud...

Yes, absolutely! Don't forget that if they go for the ball of mud, they're also less likely to have lots of combat promos. Better make good use of Charm Person (at least for the Veteran), and the early growth bonuses (Accelerated Mud Golems with Workrate bonus, and Inspiration about 40 turns earlier than any other civ can get it). Also, most Myu have a ranged attack, although on low level Recon/Melee units it's pretty weak. Ranged-then-stone is a valid tactic for softening up an enemy unit and making them think twice about attacking your fortified unit.

Also, I am considering a mid-game UB that allows you to equip your units with a +1 Str Crystal Blade or some such. I want it to come in around the same time as Smelting, to partially offset Iron Weapons if you go for that building. I know, I could theoretically just block Iron and get a similar effect, but I'm working on a theme here...

Note that from early testing, this Civ seems borderline overpowered in the early game (I mean, not D'Teshi overpowered, maybe Lanun in base FfH overpowered), so I want to make sure to keep from just giving them tons of toys at no price.

All-in-all, I think that the Warrior UU is borderline overpowered, the Champion UU is just fine (can get an 8 Str 45% Ranged-2 attack to go along with their ball of mud, Stoneskin, and Charm Person). But the Axeman replacement seems a little weak since he doesn't get higher level spells like the Champion, and he's likely to be 4 Str vs. a 5 or 6 Str opponent's axeman, where the 5 or 6 Str unit probably has more Combat promos. Not sure what to do about that, if anything.

 

[Calavente]

champion at 8 ??? he can get iron weapons ?
It's true that the warrior will be a bit OP. (as the better part of warrior age is without weapons promo so your warrior is a normal warrior + some spells)
but axeman is less than a normal axe.

champ is less but has mindII.. and force II ? (mind2earth2 is of no use for melee, only for recon line)
(earth II is better for defense than offense, and only lasts for first fight... so good against a lone powerful barbs, but not against a stack.)

 

[EugeneStyles]

champion at 8 ???

8 ranged. Force II + Mind1/Force1.

It's true that the warrior will be a bit OP. but axeman is less than a normal axe.

Which maybe I'm okay with. I'm considering giving Axeman Channeling II, but block access to Earth II and Force II. Which just opens up Mind II for Charm Person. So, he's still weak, but maybe his whining will keep you from attacking him.

champ is less but has mindII.. and force II ? (mind2earth2 is of no use for melee, only for recon line)
(earth II is better for defense than offense, and only lasts for first fight... so good against a lone powerful barbs, but not against a stack.)

True, but I don't want them to be too strong offensively anyway because they already have access to strong ranged + weak siege. +2 defense and some first strikes from Stoneskin will be good defense. Yes, not great against a stack, but if you want to protect against a stack, you will need to have a stack of your own, or hope you can Charm most of the opposing stack. I'm not sure I want them to be good individually vs. a whole stack.

 

[Viatos]

Also, I am considering a mid-game UB that allows you to equip your units with a +1 Str Crystal Blade or some such. I want it to come in around the same time as Smelting, to partially offset Iron Weapons if you go for that building.

All-in-all, I think that the Warrior UU is borderline overpowered, the Champion UU is just fine (can get an 8 Str 45% Ranged-2 attack to go along with their ball of mud, Stoneskin, and Charm Person). But the Axeman replacement seems a little weak since he doesn't get higher level spells like the Champion, and he's likely to be 4 Str vs. a 5 or 6 Str opponent's axeman, where the 5 or 6 Str unit probably has more Combat promos. Not sure what to do about that, if anything.

Crystal Weapons: +1 Strength, +2 per killed unit.

I don't think their Warrior UU will be overpowered. You're trading each warrior for two Scouts, essentially, your rush isn't nearly as bad as (say) Clan of Embers Wolf Rider spam, or a warrior stack led by Lucian. If you're worried or you think rushing would be out of character, simple solution: mudballs have -50% city attack.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Crystal Weapons: +1 Strength, +2 per killed unit.

Done. Requires Crystal Works (which comes at Alteration and also gives +10% from Gems, +5%from Gold and/or Mithril.

Crystal Weapons gives +1 Str, +10% vs. Iron Weapons, +2 per battle won. Available to Melee, Mounted, Arcane, and Commander units. Overwrites Bronze Weapons, overwritten by Iron or Mithril Weapons. Costs 25 gold.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Need some thoughts on a Recon line.

My original thought was to base the Recon line on Nature mana. Currently, the civ is set up to run on Mind/Force, with the Melee line being attuned to Earth mana. The Recon line could run on Nature mana instead of Earth, with Mind I/Nature I being Maze and Mind II/Nature II being Dominate Animal. I could either require you to go out and get some Nature mana to allow Nature I/II promotions, or else just have Recon units (past Scout) start with Nature I or II. If I did it this way, I would probably replace Treetop Defense with a similar, but more Dwarf appropriate spell. However, twist it as I might, I can't really see Nature working with the lore behind the Myu.

So, I'm considering replacing Nature with a different type of mana. The first thing that seems to make sense to me is Shadow. The recon line would be sort of a mix between Sidar/Svartalfar, but dwarven. Mind I/Shadow I would still be a Maze-type spell, but I'd probably call it something like "Shadowed Thoughts" or something. Or maybe it could create Haunted Lands? The as-yet-undesigned Neutral leader would end up being based around the recon line. Lore would be something along the lines of "I've seen a lot of twisted evil things from the depths of the Earth, and the only way to defeat them is to become them." Or whatever. He might have a unique national wonder for him that generates Shadow mana, or again, you might have to go out and build a Shadow node yourself. The idea being that any Myu player could choose to go down the Recon line and could get Shadow mana to make them better; but TXT_KEY_UNNAMED_NEUTRAL_LEADER would be the best at it.

Switching Shadow for Entropy and adjusting the "feel" accordingly could also work.

I know that I could just give the recon line some unique abilities without having to attach them to a particular mana, and I might still do that. However, I like the idea of the Psionic mage UU being able to dabble in many different areas and have psionic spells available. Thus, if there were an Earth line, an Air line (Archery), and a Shadow line, the mage could choose which of those to mix with Mind for psionic abilities. Or he could ignore that and go for fireballs, because hey, fireballs are good. =)

 

[azzedar]

there was a prestige class in d&d called pyromaniac, or pyrokineticist... something like that (d&d+pyromancer in google gives some result). might be useful for you.
basically just a freak loving fire and, fortunaly, having some abilities in psy as well, pairing into wierdo with good abilities and the likings to set things and people afire. pyromania fits well into a society with psychic abilities.

also useful, but i cant remember the name, (blast it i dont have my rulebooks here ) was a psychic scout that evolved levitation, hasten and avoiding abilities.
giving bodyI+shadowI to recons should do the job.

maybe all of them have the ability to haste/ignore terrain cost/immune to first strike themselves for a round? like 'Psychic Acceleration', but should definitly have a disadvantage.

i think recons should be using their psych abilities for enhancement, rather than for manipulation or direct attack.