[Module] Mekara Order

[Jheral]

True enough.

 

[Jheral]

New update (Familiar workrates just a test based on some feedback; can easily change back to 40 if too strong):

Changelog - v1.04

• Gladiators and Slaves should now be able to enter the arena, even if not Mekaran
• Familiars have had their workrate increased from 40 to 60
• Zaria's unique units should now show up as belonging to the Mekara Order civilization

 

[Till]

Thanks for you work! I'm really enjoying the civ. However, i think there are some balance issues in need of being sorted out. In particular bounty hunters.

Currently the initial strategy seems pretty fixed:
Research Mysticism
Adopt God King + Pacifism
Research Crafting
Build Elder Council and employ sage
Do other stuff until you get Knowledge of the Ether and Alteration from Great Sages

The problem i have with this is that KotE and Alteration tend to arrive at approximately the same time as one gets to finish researching Hunting. Given that combat overseers are much better units than bounty hunters (stronger, stay useful the whole game, most important units to level up), there is little reason to ever build bounty hunters. Especially since they require a special building. If you play as Jarnal, this really becomes a no brainer since Alteration also unlocks Karas and battle slugas...

It seems much better to ignore the whole recon tree until later, when you can trade for the useless hunting and tracking techs, and then trade/research the useful poison tech.

Problems with bounty hunters:

- lack of bonus vs animals/ beasts makes them hard to train
- reduced defensive strength generally means you have to attack
- small bonuses vs recon and melee mean you only have a good shot when attacking on open terrain
- chance to generate a slave is too small to be meaningful
- no subdue animal

I'd either scrap them, make them much cheaper, or beef them up. If only for the sake of the AI, which doesn't know better than to build them...

 

[Jheral]

-snip-

Unit rebalance, based primarily on Till's feedback, with the intent of making the Recon line more attractive. Hope I didn't break anything; was kind of in a rush while making the changes.

Changelog - v1.05

• Combat Overseer cost increased from 150 to 210
• Sluga Commander cost increased from 180 to 240
• Battle Sluga cost decreased from 120 to 90
• War Sluga cost decreased from 180 to 150
• Bounty Hunter cost decreased from 80 to 60 (putting it in line with the base Hunter)
• Slave Hunter cost decreased from 160 to 150 (putting it in line with the base Ranger)
• Defensive Strength of Bounty Hunter increased to 4
• The Bounty Hunter and Slave Hunter's bonuses against Melee and Recon units increased from 25% to 50%
• New unit: Raid Commander (Beastmaster Replacement) - A very strong recon unit with the ability to command units.

 

[Aevarex]

I guess this is a mistake: in the last version Agents are a national unit limited to 4, while there is no limit for Adjuncts and Behemoths.

 

[Till]

Still playing 1.04.

Augmentation seems inferior to just mutating units with chaos II. Mutation works instantaneously, doesn't lock down any units, and is free. The results may be unpleasant, but if you cast it on fresh lower tie units, you risk is limited. The bad ones end up as cannon fodder/garrison , and the good ones get upgraded.

Maybe i just don't have enough nodes to sufficiently increase the strength of the augmentation effect, but if you consider the investment it takes to get them, the balance is further tilted towards mutation...

One idea to improve augmentation would be to allow mages to turn slaves into siege units on the spot. This would be very helpful, as the Mekara don't have much going for them in terms of siege combat. It would also give an immediate use for slaves, which are otherwise dead weight until you get to a city with a mage guild.
I think it'd also fit the flavor of the civ.

 

[Iskar Jarak]

exploding corpses type of thing, human bombs? would be fun.

 

[Oranos]

That sounds interesting, and would at least partially solve their siege issue.

 

[Jheral]

I guess this is a mistake: in the last version Agents are a national unit limited to 4, while there is no limit for Adjuncts and Behemoths.

That would be a bug, yeah. Meant to be the other way around. I'll have that fixed in a bit.

Still playing 1.04.

Augmentation seems inferior to just mutating units with chaos II. Mutation works instantaneously, doesn't lock down any units, and is free. The results may be unpleasant, but if you cast it on fresh lower tie units, you risk is limited. The bad ones end up as cannon fodder/garrison , and the good ones get upgraded.

Maybe i just don't have enough nodes to sufficiently increase the strength of the augmentation effect, but if you consider the investment it takes to get them, the balance is further tilted towards mutation...

If I drop the cost and preparation time, would that make it more viable?

One idea to improve augmentation would be to allow mages to turn slaves into siege units on the spot. This would be very helpful, as the Mekara don't have much going for them in terms of siege combat. It would also give an immediate use for slaves, which are otherwise dead weight until you get to a city with a mage guild.
I think it'd also fit the flavor of the civ.

I don't know, I'm not sure I like the idea that much. I'll think about it, though.

As an aside, you can settle excess slaves in cities with a Slave Pens building (atm, they settle as citizens, giving +1 each).

 

[Viatos]

If I drop the cost and preparation time, would that make it more viable?

Probably not. The main issue is that Chaos II requires a commitment of one or two nodes for basically the same effect for free. What you could do is buff the increase nodes give towards positive mutation; say from 1% to 3%, which would make it an actually better decision then Chaos II once you have a few nodes.

 

[Jheral]

Probably not. The main issue is that Chaos II requires a commitment of one or two nodes for basically the same effect for free. What you could do is buff the increase nodes give towards positive mutation; say from 1% to 3%, which would make it an actually better decision then Chaos II once you have a few nodes.

I should probably do both; the AI can't cope with the current system, and their chances would be better without the cost and delay. I'll also shift the odds around a bit, moving the 'no effect' up in the heirarchy, and making it reroll if you get more than one special effect (it can't have more than one instance of the promotion, anyway).

 

[Till]

If I drop the cost and preparation time, would that make it more viable?

I agree with Viatos. If you drop cost and preparation time, you'll lose most of the flavor and get something that's still not really better than mutation.

Maybe give a fixed bonus promotion, like the animal bloods, and then add a random mutation on top of it. After all these augmentations are meant to be purposeful, as opposed to random tinkering.
They should give a significant boost, making the whole enterprise worthwhile. Consider that Mekara's have no access to animal blood, that animal blood affects the whole stack, and is available much easier and earlier. So the base aspect promotion should at least be comparable in strength, if not stronger.

I don't know, I'm not sure I like the idea that much. I'll think about it, though.

I have no idea how to justify it lore wise, but *something* for sieges wouldn't go amiss.

As an aside, you can settle excess slaves in cities with a Slave Pens building (atm, they settle as citizens, giving +1 each).

Yeah, but you need to get them there first. Difficult when your SOD is in enemy territory...
If you don't want slave siege units, maybe you could consider a portable slave->battle/war sluga converter? Having to move units from the front back home, and then back to the front again is supremely annoying, and i find it hard to believe that the Mekara war wizards wouldn't get tired of it quickly.

Maybe call it a portable lab, and make it a requirement for augmentations outside of city borders as well.

 

[Jheral]

I agree with Viatos. If you drop cost and preparation time, you'll lose most of the flavor and get something that's still not really better than mutation.

Maybe give a fixed bonus promotion, like the animal bloods, and then add a random mutation on top of it. After all these augmentations are meant to be purposeful, as opposed to random tinkering.
They should give a significant boost, making the whole enterprise worthwhile. Consider that Mekara's have no access to animal blood, that animal blood affects the whole stack, and is available much easier and earlier. So the base aspect promotion should at least be comparable in strength, if not stronger.

Hmm, not a bad idea, actually. I like it.

Just have to figure out what the effects should be. In the meantime, I'll make the changes I've outlined above.

I have no idea how to justify it lore wise, but *something* for sieges wouldn't go amiss.



Yeah, but you need to get them there first. Difficult when your SOD is in enemy territory...
If you don't want slave siege units, maybe you could consider a portable slave->battle/war sluga converter? Having to move units from the front back home, and then back to the front again is supremely annoying, and i find it hard to believe that the Mekara war wizards wouldn't get tired of it quickly.

Maybe call it a portable lab, and make it a requirement for augmentations outside city borders as well.

Good point. I could let them be converted to Battle Sluga if there is a Shaper on the tile. That sound ok?

 

[Jheral]

In the meantime, I have the next version ready:


Changelog - v1.06

• Raid Commander can now no longer be built, only upgraded from lvl 6 or above Slave Hunters
• Mobility through experience for Battle Sluga fixed (again, for real this time)
• National unit limits set to appropriate levels.
• Cost of creating Battle Sluga from Slaves dropped, to make it easier for AI to use it
• Augmentation now has no cost or preparation time.
• Augmentation odds have been shifted around a bit:
  Spoiler :

  • Aspected Bad effect - 25% chance
  • Generic Bad effect - 15% chance
  • No effect - 20% chance
  • Generic Good effect - 15% chance
  • Aspected Good effect - 25% chance
  • Aspected Special effect - 0% chance
    
  • Each instance of the appropriate Mana shifts the odds by 2% upwards (so with three manas, you get -6% to the Aspected Bad effect, and +6% to the Aspected Special effect).
  • If you already have a special, then hitting that again will result in a reroll.