Monarch Game (Ragnar)

[Sataa3a]

The worker finished building that farm, and I set him to build a mine on the green hill north of the Nidaros, and after that told him to farm the second corn, so that I could get some more production into the picture.

The Warrior finishes, and I start a settler, since the city is at size 3. I fortify the warrior in the city because it seems to be growing relatively quickly and I need to watch out for the happy cap, yes? That whole 'we demand military protection' angryface. Maybe I should have let him explore more until the city does grow to that number... but I'm afraid of letting him stray too far by accident.

And BW finishes. There is no copper in sight. Maybe there is some somewhat nearby, in a place I didn't get a chance to explore... but certainly nothing I can see.

I've put AH as the current tech, but that was because I had to click something. Since there is no copper, do I want to continue with it so I can settle some horsies (if they are indeed there) and get on with the business of learning how to shoot people from horseback? Or are granaries and cottages more pressing?

Nothing new to show a screenshot of, but save attached.

 

[lymond]

I'm struggling to understand why you built the mine before improving the second corn.

Keep in mind that happiness is not much of a concern when you are building workers and settlers, especially when you have the whip now. That's fine to keep a warrior in the city, but the point is "Happiness is not a concern right now". You can whip off unhappy citizens. Warrior is going to do more for you spawnbusting outside your city.

 

[Sataa3a]

Because I was being dense and forgot that I had a forested plains hill.
Basically, I wanted to try to get the settler out quickly, and I thought that the warrior was going to take forever, because I wasn't really working any production tiles. I wanted to get some production so that I could get the warrior out and start on the settler, and the second farm wasn't going to do that any faster.
Which I now realize was a bad plan.
(And why I can't beat monarch.)
But yeah, bad plan compounded with my not-noticing that plains hill, which, if I was determined to increase production, I could have worked instead, while farming that corn. For the same production.

tl;dr , Don't bother trying to understand. I really have no clue. Just sloppy play.

Okay. I'll move the warrior, then. I suppose I either pay too much attention to happy cap, or not enough.

 

[Ormiga]

So i got a chance to look at the save.

First you should have farmed the second corn immediately after the first corn. In fact, when you moved to farm that corn to the east you should've put 1 worker turn on the corn NE. That little bit of worker micro would save you 1 turn when going back to farm that corn NE of your capital. Building that mine cost you 6 turns in farming that corn NE.

At turn 25 the farm would be finished to coincide with growing to pop 3. Allowing you to work the 2 corn and 1 plains forest tiles for 3 hammers.

Turn 26 - The warrior would be at 14/15 hammers and now you can move the 3rd citizen to work the 2/0/3 clams to bring bronze working in 1 turn sooner. Move the worker to the hills tile N of capital

Turn 27 - Warrior is complete. 1 turn to bronze working. Put 1 Turn into the hills tile and then cancel the order. Set Nidaros to put 1 turn into a warrior

Turn 28 - BW is in. Nidaros grows to pop 4. Set to build another worker. Move the worker on the hill to grassland forest 1E of capital. Chop the next turn

As you can see with the above sequence I was able to get the warrior out on the same turn you did, grow to pop 4, and bring in bronze working 1 turn sooner. Food is king in this game, you can turn food into more commerce or production so always emphasize food first. It may seem like a lot of analysis went into this but if you practice micro over several games it becomes second nature. After a while you don't even think about it too much anymore you kind of just know what to do so practice that micro.

As for what you should build next, I would personally go with another worker to double chop a settler. If you plan to settle 2N of that corn then you don't need an escort, you can settle the same turn you move onto the spot. Although, I suggest settling 1S of the gold instead. This would create less overlap in the capital and you can fit in another city 1NE of those second set of clams with less overlap as well.

As for the warrior fortifying in the city. You don't need to worry about military police in your capital right now. You won't need to worry about that until you reach size 5 actually and, you can micromanage Nidaros so that the warrior pops out the same time you reach size 5 so it's okay to leave it without any military police for now.

You're desperately in need of more map info though. I would move the warrior north for more map info but you can also scout out that tundra to the south. That could be a decent city if you find deer down there as well and those furs will really help to grow to happy cap 7 in your capital.

 

[lymond]

^^^very good stuff, Ormiga.

Sataa...Ormiga mentions a nice little trick with worker management. Keep that in mind. If a worker has to move 2 tiles away, like in this case with improving wet corn first, use the 1 movement point to put a turn into dry corn, then next turn move 1 tile and start the wet corn. Great way to max worker turns and it can be applied to many ways, such as lay part of a regular farm or part of a road, cottage, even if you don't complete them until quite a bit later. Really plays off as you move up levels.

Also, note that once you grow to size 2 with the wet corn improved, check the #turns to next pop difference between work 3F unimproved dry corn and a 2F1H forest grass tile. You will often find that there is no difference, but the 2F1H tiles gets your warrior out a bit faster. Try keeping your 2nd citizen on that tile until the 2nd corn is improved.

I wasn't even really thinking about the forest plains hill actually. You can micro that to get a boost of temp hammers to speed up that warrior at size 3, as Ormiga mentioned. However, you do want to have your city grow as fast as possible initially to size 3 or 4 as a) it maxes your overall food and hammers b) set's up 2 pop whips . So in other words, the faster you grow pop the faster you can use that extra production via the whip.

 

[pomthom]

^^^very good stuff, Ormiga.

Indeed! @Sataa: although I believe mastering such worker micro management is not essential to winning Monarch, this is some very good advice altogether ; and very precious advice when you will have to master Emperor/Immortal (+!)

I'm far from being a very experienced BTS player but there is 1 thing for which I may be of some use to you: I was exactly where you were just a few weeks ago!

Like I was, you probably have a reasonable understanding of all the basics of the game. However, beating Monarch++ requires to fully understand and benefit from most of these (probably non-exhaustive) crucial game mechanics (which don't seem really important on Prince--):

(i) Tech trading: knowing which techs are good trading items (ie. those the AIs self-tech the least) and knowing how and when to trade​

(ii) Whip management: knowing when to whip, but most of all understanding how often you should be whipping (another reason for food being essential)​

(iii) GP management: knowing how to generate and use Great People as soon as possible, they are crucial at the start of the game (marginal after Liberalism IMHO)​

(iv) Diplomacy: knowing how to avoid getting attacked when not ready and whom to attack when ready, but also learning how to keep other civs busy with each other​

(v) Unit spam: knowing how to prepare for war quickly and efficiently​

(vi) Macro management: learning how to build less city infra (I remember being very excited about understanding the concept of city specialization, and realizing afterwards I overplayed it immensely... specialize only good cities, build the minimum in all the others), how to balance building infra/wealth/units, how to manage the research slider​

Well... that's actually quite a lot sorry but you don't actually have to master all of them to beat Monarch

So here is how I went from "failing-consistently-on-Monarch-to-an-AI-space-vic" straight to "wow-Immortal-is-not-that-hard!"

Watching YT playthroughs. That gives you condensed "lessons" with immediate illustrations ; hours of wandering on the CF forums won't beat it (note: posting a game like you are just doing is also very good).

My personal favourite is AbsoluteZero's games: he's got loads of different leaders which he generally wraps up in 6-to-8 1-hour videos (mostly Deity games). He's a good speaker and balances well strategy/management explanations while still going reasonably fast (his channel). TheMeInTeam is very good and also productive in this matter but he's just too fast to follow if you're not used to it (however the games are less than 3 hours! ).

Hope this helps! Will follow your game and give advice if I can

 

[Sataa3a]

Thank you for all the advice, all of you!

That's definitely something that *should* be relatively easy to incorporate into my game, remembering that I don't have to have workers complete their actions and putting a turn into one corn on my way to the other. 'Course, I'm just ... micro-challenged, in general.
I just went and watched the first segment of an Absolute Zero game, and... I don't think I even caught half of it. But yeah, watching those is very helpful, despite them being on a higher difficulty, because useful stuff on hard levels is good on easy levels, too. I'll try to work my way through a few of those.

And thank you for that list, pomthom. I'll try to keep those in mind and apply them this game. Also thanks for the being motivational and such. : )

I do have one question about something Ormiga said, though.

Originally Posted by Ormiga
I suggest settling 1S of the gold instead. This would create less overlap in the capital and you can fit in another city 1NE of those second set of clams with less overlap as well.

I thought overlap was good, generally? Is there some 'perfect' amount of overlap for cities?
I used to found my cities very far apart to snatch up as much land as possible, before realizing that that would increase maintenance costs. Then I read that tile-sharing makes the early game more efficient, and the early game is the decider of the outcome of the game, so therefore tile-sharing and overlap are indeed very good. Is that just not the case here?
(Obviously founding the cities many tiles apart isn't being advised, but... confusion.)

 

[lymond]

You are correct Sataa. I missed that bit of Ormiga's post as I kinda gloss over the longer ones. Overlap is indeed a good thing but should be done logically.

One thing to do is ask yourself what that city is going to do initially. First, settling 1S or 1SW of the Gold is no big deal either way. 1SW picks of Rice in the first ring. However, often with a city I settle for gold early I want it to work the gold immediately, even at one pop (unless there is a great food resource there - rice is not - and you can work the cap's corn to get to size 2 if you want before the mine is complete) So having rice in 1st ring is not that big a deal. Just have city work gold mine while building a monument.

Then maybe look a bit a what the might gain between one position or the other. Either one allows for food sharing with with Nidaros. Either one allows for clams city. Settling 1S does pick up some more production. A grass hill is always nice.

So yeah, I think 1S of Gold may be a bit better than 1SW, but it has absolutely nothing to do with " a little less overlap".

 

[pomthom]

IMO overlap has the advantages of sharing already improved food tiles for quicker growth of new cities, reducing city maintenance, and working more cottage tiles in the capitole's BFC so that you can switch the tiles back to the cap when it has grown big enough.

Like lymond said, settling 1S or 1SW of Gold doesn't change much of that so it really boils down to dotmapping.

However, the site 1S of Sheep looks like a good overlap spot: it will allow you to work extra cottages for the cap as well as getting that fur for the happiness. I think that should be City 3, and City 4 could be 1NE of Clam (which will also give you a WB for the cap's Clam)

 

[lymond]

However, the site 1S of Sheep looks like a good overlap spot: it will allow you to work extra cottages for the cap as well as getting that fur for the happiness. I think that should be City 3, and City 4 could be 1NE of Clam (which will also give you a WB for the cap's Clam)

I agree. Barring anything nice looking that has not been scouted nearby, I'd say those are the spots. Not stellar stuff food wise, but you'd still be amazed at what you can get out these cities even with marginal food resources when punching out a horse archer rush.

 

[Sataa3a]

Okay, sorry for the long delay. I was attacked by School Projects and Graduation Fuss. I'm going to try to post my next session tomorrow.
Also, thanks for the clearing-up of my overlap question and advice on that gold city. i'll make sure to take that into account.

 

[Sataa3a]

Okay, so I played some more today.

The worker finished the second farm, and as I don't have cottages or roads yet, I set him to building a mine on the hill west of Nidaros.

That finishes on the same turn as I found Uppsala. It's working the lake for now, until I can get the first worker over there to build that mine. I have a second worker being built in Nidaros. Should I build a third when that one finishes, or very soon after? I tend to not build enough...

There are four beavers to the south. The new scouting warrior is now heading north.

I have my research set to The Wheel, because I figure roads, cottages, and granaries will be needed soon. Is this a good choice, or should I do, say, writing first? Also, if I'm going to do a HA rush, I know that needs techs off the normal path (Archery and HBR).
(I think I am bad at choosing techs.)

Oh! also, horses in BFC.

Spoiler :

 

[Ormiga]

Your plan looks solid, I would definitely do a 3rd worker too. The wheel followed by pottery is the way to go but if you're going to do a horse archer rush then maybe going for HBR before writing is better. I don't usually go for early rushes and that's probably the weakest part of my game. Im a builder mostly

EDIT: Forgot to mention you should switch Uppsala to work that corn tile ASAP. Probably after that 3rd worker is finished

 

[sinimusta]

Decided to play shadow game, Sataa3a would be better of by not looking how it went before his game is over.

Spoiler :

I cheated a bit and sttled one sw because I read the thread. Anyway I started worker first, warrior, chopped a worker and then double chopped the settler. Settled the gold site and later 3-pop whipped settler to double fish site which was not availaible with SIP. Nice city btw, I used it as my gp farm and it worked two cottages to towns for the cap. I sent a few chariots scouting Willems land (my first target since SB is pro).Found copper in his border city, doWed and pillaged it. Willem had only one spear. My chariot was on hill to look he didn't rebuild the mine. After I got enough HAs taking Willems land was easy.

After that I decided to scout america, lincoln had jewish shrine with one archer making good money (that's what jews are good at, right ). So no reason not to invade them aswell. It went well. After that my scouts reported that England had weak army so went next for them. I had vassalage then so I just proved my military superiority by taking English cities and and gifting them back after capping to avoid maintenance and micro. Game was already won by then.

I got lucky with no one making the mids and got in about 1ad iirc. So I coud run a bureau cap funded SE. I had almost no cottages outside the cap. After reading a lot about SE, I wanted to try it and it went well. Though I had academy in cap so perhaps merchant funded cottage research would have been better?

Then it was Boudica's turn to join Rangnar's harem. I founded one city to get phants and gifted it to Lizzy to avoid maintenance. Elepulted (well I got some berserkers also) Boudica, for SB I had knights and berserkers and trebs against Zara yakob.

 

[Sataa3a]

That was a long delay, but I should be back to semi-regular playing now. I didn't notice that people had commented for a while, sorry. (Thanks for the input, as usual!)

So I decided to stick with the Wheel, at least, because I will need roads. Same builds in the cities, too.

America (Lincoln) shows up on turn 40, somewhere north of me. I don't think he's met the other two yet. ('What do you think of' has no results.) So he probably isn't a viable rush target. Which means I probably need to find Willem, and hope he isn't far, since I don't think rushing a protective leader would be fun.

After the Wheel finishes, I go for Pottery.

... and my scouting warrior is defeated by a barb archer. um. He didn't manage to reveal much more at all of the north. Maybe a few tiles. Looks like I'll need another, yes? Because I still need to find Willem, and just get some more north revealed. (The second warrior from Uppsala is sent north.)

And Celtia shows up from the north.

I've got barracks in both cities so that they can grow some, and also because I'll need those, I think. Probably granaries next. Also, at some point I'll need another settler, yes? Probably rather soon.

And now, I present some questions:
-Espionage. Should I be putting it all on someone now? If so, my target, or someone I think will be a techer, or...?
-Techs. I will need HBR and Archery for the rush. I watched AbsoluteZero's video on HA rushing, and he self-teched HBR, bulbed Math, and traded for Archery. Is trading for Archery feasible on Monarch, or are the AIs too slow to tech Alpha? And do I want to tech writing so I can get a library and a GS and bulb math while I'm teching HBR?

Oh, also, Uppsala is now working the corn (thanks for the reminder, Ormiga).

Nidaros:

Spoiler :

Uppsala:

Spoiler :

 

[Ghpstage]

Is trading for Archery feasible on Monarch, or are the AIs too slow to tech Alpha?

Lol it would be hard for the AI to not have Archery by the time yo have Alpha..... considering they start with it on Monarch

 

[Tall German Joe]

for Monarch, you won't be able to trade for Archery because nobody *should* have Alphabet by the time you're ready to rush. so, you'll need to research it yourself, and make sure to research it last.

also, a minor thing: Nidaros should work the horse, which is better than a grassland mine, if Uppsala is not.

 

[pomthom]

@Sataa3a
Ok. Doing this from work (doh!) so couldn't look at the save but I can tell you some things from the screenshots (don't hesitate to put some more if you can!).

How many workers do you have? Probably not enough, you need to start cottaging Nidaros (start with the FP). Your cap is working litterally no tiles with 3 and that's BAD when your FIN
You also have to switch to Slavery soon because you'll need the whip to build infra+workers+settlers+troops

and my scouting warrior is defeated by a barb archer. um. He didn't manage to reveal much more at all of the north. Maybe a few tiles. Looks like I'll need another, yes?

Build 1 or 2 Chariots (in Nidaros) as soon as you have the chance

I've got barracks in both cities so that they can grow some, and also because I'll need those, I think. Probably granaries next.

See "Uppsala" comment below.

Also, at some point I'll need another settler, yes? Probably rather soon.

Yes. Grow Nidaros to size 6, then 3-pop whip a settler. I'm suggesting 1S of Sheep to get the Fur for happiness and working cottage tiles around Nidaros (try and work as much cottage tiles around your cap as soon as possible so that it can work them all under Bureaucracy and get the +50% )

Espionage. Should I be putting it all on someone now?

I'm not an espionage expert, but I always do. I choose a good tech'er who's not putting in too much spy points on me and see how it goes. Willem seems a good candidate

Is trading for Archery feasible on Monarch, or are the AIs too slow to tech Alpha?

Well the AIs are very slow on Monarch... Self-teching HBR is a given and bulbing Math on Monarchy is IMHO a damn waste. Anyway you should probably go Alpha first and see the lay of the land. Then go HBR and last Archery if you couldn't trade it.

And do I want to tech writing so I can get a library and a GS and bulb math while I'm teching HBR?

Going Writing to build libraries is good (just tech Myst before, see below), but as previously indicated don't waste your GS on Math for Monarch level (you do that when your tech rate is low on higher difficulties).

Other comments:

Uppsala: building a Barracks before a Granary is a and you need culture to border-pop (to work the Rice) so that means a Monument is also a higher priority than a Barracks (that also means you need to tech Myst). Maybe switch to teching Myst, go Granary and whip it into a Monument (an extra 4 tile is good sooner rather than later).

Nidaros: build a Granary and grow you city to pop 6 to whip a settler, then build chariots and workers. You can also work the Horses instead of a Mine. And did I mention you need to cottage?

Hope this helps, don't take any of this for granted I'm just giving an opinion of what I would do

 

[Sataa3a]

Mkay. I couldn't find any HA rush guides or videos below Immortal, haha. So thus my tech confusion.
And I had the barracks under construction because I didn't have pottery for granaries yet. Same reason there aren't cottages yet. I have three workers right now, who built some roads to connect the two cities while I waited for Pottery.
Oh, whoops, slavery. I never remember to do so while my settler is moving. I'll do that next, along with switching from that mine to the horse.
Are there any things in particular that screenshots of would be good?

 

[pomthom]

Are there any things in particular that screenshots of would be good?

View of the map for city placement and ennemy lines etc, and once Alpha is in: tech diplo screen (it's just simpler to read, don't worry about it too much )