Monarch Student^ XIII- Boudica

[obsolete]

Ya obsolete I caught that, sorry. But! With a dun and a barracks and theocracy it means Guerilla 3 Gallics out of the gates!

To be honest, if I had to run Theocracy, I could think of much better promotions to use than guerilla III

Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the Civlopedia is kind of misleading about the free Dun Guerrilla promo. I pretty sure Archery Units do not receive it. I do think Gundpowder does though.

Wrong on both counts. Archers get the promo.

Also, gunpowder obsoletes walls, so that's not going to happen unless you upgrade obsolete units.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

To be honest, if I had to run Theocracy, I could think of much better promotions to use than guerilla III



Wrong on both counts. Archers get the promo.

Also, gunpowder obsoletes walls, so that's not going to happen unless you upgrade obsolete units.

Actually walls aren't obsolete until rifling in terms of effect for the civ using them, so you can use duns for both muskets and grenadiers.

 

[lymond]

To be honest, if I had to run Theocracy, I could think of much better promotions to use than guerilla III



Wrong on both counts. Archers get the promo.

Also, gunpowder obsoletes walls, so that's not going to happen unless you upgrade obsolete units.

Yeah, you are right. I see it showing up but coulda sworn I played a game in which archers weren't getting it. It may have just been bugged out. I do know that I had Muskets getting the promo though.

 

[huerfanista]

To be honest, if I had to run Theocracy, I could think of much better promotions to use than guerilla III

I'm just amazed by the conventional "wisdom" that G3 is a mediocre (at best) or useless (at worst) promotion. This goes right along with the notion that the free G1 promo on gallics is a waste. I've played with gallics a lot, and I've found that their ability to quickly get to G3 is what makes them one of the better UUs in the game, especially when playing as Boudica (AGG/CHA). If you don't take the time to learn about (and practice using) their strengths, then people will just use gallics as ordinary swords and treat G1 as a throwaway promo. This applies equally to muskets. With G3, a very mediocre unit (musket) becomes quite a bit more powerful. You just have to take the time to actually play with them to see just how good they can be.

 

[huerfanista]

Monarch/normal 1430AD domination:

Spoiler :

Somehow my 1030AD update (which I posted last night) disappeared. So I'll just fold it into this update.

Bull departed quickly to the happy hunting grounds, folding like a stack of cards. At the start of the round I traded KK for HBR, which took care of Bull's doggies. Tech path (IIRC) was CS, MC, machinery (bulbed with a GE from Biberacte), aesthetics (built Shwedagon Paya, Parthenon, got failure gold from SoZ by an unknown civ), philosophy (bulbed with a GS, founded taoism, built AW in Mecca), lit (built GLib in Mecca), music (got free GA, eventually built Sistine in one of Bull's old cities), engineering. I added a couple of maces and a treb or 2 to my stack, and took all of Bull's cities very quickly. I used my second GG to make a super-medic chariot, which sped things up as well.

1030AD empire:



By 1120AD I was ready to DOW Mansa. I set up 2 stacks:



After taking 2 cities he was ready to cap:


Kublai was next, with the same result. After taking 2 cities he capped. The VC screen showed that I needed about 1% more land for domination,

so I took out a couple of barb cities and settled 1 more new city. 1430AD domination:



The unknown civ turned out to be

Spoiler :

Bismark, on a small continent with the "mountain" bug so he only settled half of it.

Keys to victory:
1. I settled my first 3 cities for high production and iron. This let me crank out gallics very fast, and I simply ran over Sal and Vicky. Settling in place gave a very good production capital as well. I resisted the siren call of the desert gold/floodplains to the NE, which would not have done anything for me early on.

2. Promoting all gallics to G2. This gives them faster movement on the attack, and all the survivors get G3 immediately for the 50% withdrawal chance and hill attack. I eventually got several up to C1G3CR3, and didn't even bother upgrading them to maces since they do just fine against longbows.

3. Keeping the economy going even while keeping every city that I conquered. Turning off the slider after writing enabled me to build up a big surplus, and instead of dumping it into alpha (which everyone except KK had), I was able to get math in a couple of turns, which I used to backfill alpha, etc. The conquest gold let me push through currency at 100%, and a couple of cities building wealth let me research CoL at 100% as well. Once courts were up there was never any problem with the economy.

4. Good hut luck! Not so much with techs (archery was barely used, Ag only cut about 3 turns off of research, but Wheel was nice), but 140 was very helpful in pushing through IW at 100% while settling my first 4 cities.

5. The start. In place turned out to be a very good decision, with 3 hills and marble insuring a high capital, and only needing AG before going on the IW beeline.

 

[obsolete]

Immortal / NSC / Archer Barbs

Spoiler :

This UU ended up being useless once again to me. I did build ONE hoping I could at least take over a barb city near me, but stupid Sitting Bull happened to get the jump on me and attack in my turn I was going to take it. So no luck for me there!

The beginning worked out quite well. No stone anywhere that I could see, however I’ve lately been re-discovering the O-M-P gambit with great success on deity as of late, so I decided to take a shot here. Not being IND hurts this gambit, and not being phil really makes things bad, but needless to say, if it works on deity it SHOULD work here. Problem is I only had one shot with this leader.

Good news is, it worked. Of course there was a chance I would get a priest, but the odds were in my favour, and that’s exactly what happened on turn #80. So…. With that addo… 120 hammer investment nets me a 500 hammer wonder

After this, the poor AI’s didn’t have a chance, even though I was crippled a bit with not even having 6 cities again! I did pull my way through lib in flying colours with WE/SSE once again.

There were some small problems. Stupid England DoWs on me totally unexpectedly just before LIB, despite she was worst enemies with other people. God I hate this stupid mechanic. I had even avoided religion the entire time just to prevent this. I was in a bad spot in the middle with so many other AI’s running different religions wanting to screw me over. Needless to say, trying to be quiet, only got me into more trouble.

Anyhow, I gave Mansa Education to get him in the war on my side, but it was all for nothing. Stupid England decides to hold a vote to cancel the war a couple turns after she declared that same war!!! How the hell can Firaxis be that stupid!?

Saladin then tried to backstab me, but instead the English backstab them first, so then I only had to worry about that idiot sitting-bull. Yup, he tried to backstab me too, and he did, what an idiot. I had tones and tones of cuirassiers that I was upgrading to cavalry, while he sends in a billion knights and elephants. Big, big, big mistake. Actually, it was downright DISASTROUS and suicide for the AI.

Needless to say………. I gave him the biggest rump-over in the quickest amount of time you would believe. In fact, the first TURN of that war he backstabbed me, I received TWO GREAT GENERALS, despite I was not IMP, nor did I have TGW, nor did I even have a single GG point accumulated at that time.

Just to show how utterly stupid the AI was, to do such a thing… I had even been giving massive techs to Mansa this game, including the powerful military techs. And I even had made a defense pact with Mansa. So now Sitting bull, who had no chance in hell against me, also would have to simultaneously DoW on Mansa at the same time! Which alone he would have had 0 chance.

I just don’t get how STUPID this AI can be. AI in Civ III was never so dumb. It used to be smart enough to see these last minute alliances, amongst many other things.

So after a very easy vassaling of Sitting Bull, I then DoW on Saladin. I take just 2 border cities and he immediately is wanting to Vassal. I decide to take this deal and foolishly thought I could just build my way to a quick finish after that.

This was indeed foolish because I under-estimated the teching power of Mansa on Immortal. It’s only Ghandi that ever gives me problems, but in this game, Mansa had quite a lot of cities still, and I had given him far too many techs and other freebies. After industrialism, he was just spiraling away, despite going for culture at the same time.

So, I went after fission, and DoW on him. Either he bribed the English, or they just wanted to dog pile on me (with their Bismark vassal). So I made a temp peace with Mansa after he gave me almost 2K gold, so I could focus on the English.

Geeze, was this AI stupid. Because the English had a vassal (which was so useless and backwards, not even on the same continent, nor did this vassal even have enough cities to build national wonders…) the stupid English felt their power was much more greater than it really was. So she REFUSED to capit, no matter how bad the losses were. In fact, I LITERALLY took EVERY city from the English off my whole continent, and the English STILL thought they were powerful and doing fine on their own, because they ahd a very useless and very crappy vassal.

Firaxis REALLY didn’t think that one out too well… haha.

I then Nuked some more and re-DoW on Mansa as his key cities got close to Legondary status. I then capitulated him and this was enough for a domination win. GG.

In hindsight, I should have probably immediately romped over the English as soon as I had capitulated Saladin. But I’ve been raping the AI’s in war so much, and with all the cavalry I have it takes each turn a while to move everything around, etc. I simply wanted to speed up my turns by going into a builder mode. It would have been fine that way, but Mansa forced my hand in this one…

On a side-note, I also had to park my military into my newly captured cities to prevent them from constantly going into revolt (or worse, flipping).

 

[budweiser]

@obsolete - What is the O-M-P gambit?

 

[huerfanista]

@obsolete - What is the O-M-P gambit?

Oracle > Metal Casting > Pyramids.

Build oracle, take MC, chop/whop a forge to run an early engineer. Engineer get 3gpp, oracle gets 2 prophet gpps. Odds are you'll pop a GE, use him to rush the mids.

 

[obsolete]

Actually walls aren't obsolete until rifling in terms of effect for the civ using them...

And here-in lays the problem. As you know, the only units I use in my first invasion wars are rifles and mounted units. So... that being said, and this bonus applies to none of those units, take one big guess on how high up the totem-pole I rank this (ahem), wonderful UB (* caugh, *caugh..)

Not that I am saying the TOTEM-POLE isn't so great either. It is wonderful, but that's for another thread and another game.

 

[Nothingontv]

Monarch-normal my shortest game ever

Spoiler :

Not much happened so i'll keep it short. I lost my first settler/warrior to a bear and a little later i got some Vedian barbarian (?) event where my capital was taken.
At this point i had explored quite a bit since i got one scout and 2 maps from huts so i know a lot of the map. Restarting the map doesn't seem fair but maybe i'll try again this weekend.

 

[vicawoo]

Boudica can get commando at 13 exp on melee/gunpowder. Extra points if someone does it.

 

[huerfanista]

Boudica can get commando at 13 exp on melee/gunpowder. Extra points if someone does it.

I only got to rifling just before domination (never even had a chance to build a rifleman ), and never went down the chem/steel line for MS. It would have been trivial to do. I've gotten commandos in lots of Boudica games. This one didn't last long enough. I'd need MS (to unlock commando promotion) and MT (for WP and the extra XP in my military city). I did have plenty of level 6 units (purely through combat), though.

 

[vicawoo]

You only need 3 or 4 great generals, no need to wait for west point. Why do you need Steel? I'm talking about trying to really abuse commando, although with one move you're only one move faster than mounted. Maybe Cyrus would be better.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm just amazed by the conventional "wisdom" that G3 is a mediocre (at best) or useless (at worst) promotion. This goes right along with the notion that the free G1 promo on gallics is a waste. I've played with gallics a lot, and I've found that their ability to quickly get to G3 is what makes them one of the better UUs in the game, especially when playing as Boudica (AGG/CHA). If you don't take the time to learn about (and practice using) their strengths, then people will just use gallics as ordinary swords and treat G1 as a throwaway promo. This applies equally to muskets. With G3, a very mediocre unit (musket) becomes quite a bit more powerful. You just have to take the time to actually play with them to see just how good they can be.

Strength of units varies drastically due to speed and difficulty. Gallics are not so hot when you have 20-30 turns after you get IW to hit before the AI has a good chance of longbows. 50% withdraw muskets are good but not when the computer has 4-8 units in every city you attack and you'll still lose a good #...or if they have knights and catch you on flatland (where you'll be a sitting duck to combat II even). It isn't useless but pasting the world with them doesn't prove that they're worth anything special compared to other units ---> I've done the same thing on monarch using regular horse archers exclusively, and that was before I moved up.

 

[obsolete]

Too be honest, I'm not sure which is worse, Flank II or Guerilla III. I'll have to do some thinking on that!

It is hard to quantify something thing has so little use.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Flank II is first strike immunity on cavalry. G III is worth it vs hill cities @ 5 xp because it's essentially like CR w/ withdraw...though it sucks vs non-hills. That said, of a LOT of cities are on hills, it's a competitive promo to have in the rotation.

Niche promos aren't meant to be used outside of their niche, but they're good within it.

 

[huerfanista]

You only need 3 or 4 great generals, no need to wait for west point. Why do you need Steel? I'm talking about trying to really abuse commando, although with one move you're only one move faster than mounted. Maybe Cyrus would be better.

I didn't say you need steel, I said "down the chem/steel line" which is where you have to go to get MilSci. Military Science is needed to open up the commando promotion, and it would be hard to justify going down that line without also grabbing steel. 3 GGs = 6XP + 3 from barracks = 9. Where are you gonna get the other 4? Vassalage + theo? Doesn't seem worth it to me. WP is easily enabled, MT is very valuable to enable cuirassiers and cavs.

Strength of units varies drastically due to speed and difficulty. Gallics are not so hot when you have 20-30 turns after you get IW to hit before the AI has a good chance of longbows.

Certainly not even remotely true at monarch (this is "Monarch Student" after all), and I seriously doubt it would be true on emperor as well. Even with Mansa in the game I didn't seen Lbows until well after I had taken down 2 civs. And once you have cats, lbows are no problem for gallics (they do fine even without seige against flatland cities with 40% culture D). The way I play Boudica is 1 food tech (2 if unlucky and only AH food available), beeline IW, wheel, then head to writing. You can easily have a big stack of gallics by 500BC at the latest.

50% withdraw muskets are good but not when the computer has 4-8 units in every city you attack and you'll still lose a good #...or if they have knights and catch you on flatland (where you'll be a sitting duck to combat II even). It isn't useless but pasting the world with them doesn't prove that they're worth anything special compared to other units ---> I've done the same thing on monarch using regular horse archers exclusively, and that was before I moved up.

4-8 units in every city your attack? What game are you playing? I use them as 2-move units (more like 1.5 move on average) to attack the lightly-defended cities where the enemy SOD isn't. I attack the SOD with a conventional mass force of maces/trebs/etc. The argument isn't that G3 muskets are "gunpowder praetorians", it's that they can leverage the "useless" dun in a powerful and effective way. Most people on the forum just intellectually conclude that it can't work and call them useless or mediocre. I used to be the same way until I took the time to use them in an actual game, using some strategies that others had suggested.

I don't find the argument that "such-and-such strategy doesn't work on high levels" to be very compelling. For me, reducing every single game to "don't get declared on, beeline lib, build cavalry/rifles/cannon, take over the world" makes an interesting and flexible game very boring. That's why I don't have much interest in becoming a "high-level" player. To each his own.

 

[huerfanista]

Flank II is first strike immunity on cavalry. G III is worth it vs hill cities @ 5 xp because it's essentially like CR w/ withdraw...though it sucks vs non-hills. That said, of a LOT of cities are on hills, it's a competitive promo to have in the rotation.

Niche promos aren't meant to be used outside of their niche, but they're good within it.

BTW, I would never argue that G3 is anything more than a niche promo unless I was playing the Celts, and Boudica in particular (where it comes at 4XP). In fact, I never use it when playing as other civs. Nonetheless, I think it's a very good promo in the context of playing as Boudica. At 4XP, you have 4 promotions where other non-AGG and non-CHA civs only have 1 promo (except for PRO, and you can't leverage those extra promos well offensively until at least rifling). The combined bonuses to movement (especially attack speed), combat strength, defense (on hills), offense (against hills), and withdrawal are (IMO) too strong to be ignored when playing as Boudica. Ignoring the guerilla line wastes the considerable synergy that exists between these 3 promos, which comes at a very low cost due to the nerfed promotion tree [EDIT] and free G1 promo.

EDIT2: I also have to comment on this statement, TMIT:

It isn't useless but pasting the world with them doesn't prove that they're worth anything special compared to other units ---> I've done the same thing on monarch using regular horse archers exclusively, and that was before I moved up.

Nice straw man argument there. I never made the claim that "pasting the world with them ... prove that they're worth anything special". My assertion was "with G3, a very mediocre unit (musket) becomes quite a bit more powerful," which you basically conceded by saying "50% withdraw muskets are good". And speaking about losing units and their vulnerability to knights on flatland, what was your K/D ratio in that HA romp? Not so special, IIRC. The real question is whether the AI is smart enough in its use of knights to make me pay (in a significant way) when my muskets have to spend a turn on (non-forested) flatland. I think we all know the answer to that.

 

[DrakenKin]

I am a Prince player, but there was no Prince version of this map... Noble would have been too easy, so I took Monarch. This was my first Monarch game, and... I failed

Spoiler :

Early : Usually I would bottle the AI in, but here the position where you can block the AI were clearly inferior than others (that had as much as 4-5 resources in the BFC). I am not sure this was the right call... but I did not block the AI so Isabella was all over the place and started no less than 3 cities right at the borders of my capital. (Why the AI does this when there is so much free space elsewhere is beyond me.)

Mid game : Spent most of my early game preparing for war, then started a fight with Saladin. Apparently I underestimated the AI in monarch and built insufficient troops to take him down quickly. I took a couple of cities, and got swarmed by the amount of troops he was able to keep sending. The war dragged on... and even if I took him down eventually, I was crippled by the long time I spent fighting him.

Isabella also refused to join me in the war (even if she was friendly to me and disliked saladin), but when I finally beat him down, destroyed his stakcs and took his capital, she moved in and snatched his last couple of cities... at the same time the native americans were kickin her ass on the other side of her empire and took two of her cities and vassaled her. Is the AI programmed to be an ass to the human player even at its peril? or does it just have its priorities all wrong?

Anyway... Developed diplomacy and good relations with mensa musa (which was #1 in score and I guess in power for the whole game), and kept the others happy enough in an attempt to get a diplomatic victory (and some techs). However they were all in wars between them, and it was hard to please everyone since I kept being asked to stop trade and declare wars, and I kept losing points for refusing these demands. (Only warred the mangolians since there were far away and their troops were annihilated by mensa musa before they get to me )

Late game : Since the general climate of hostility made a UN victory impossible, I signed a defensive pact with mensa musa to keep the native americans off my back and built my empire around research and production to have a stab at a space race victory. However in the meantime, Mensa musa's power skyrocketed and he vassaled both the mangolians and the native americans, and was working his way to conquer the english.

I almost won the space race, but Mensa completed his while I was still missing a couple of components.

What I found hard in this game:

1) Technology blockade. Mensa musa was always ahead of me in research so I had nothing to trade to him. The others civs had all their techs in red and did not want to trade their techs to me, even if they were pleased with me (even friendly in the case of the english). In the rare occasions they were willing to trade, their demands were very high (refused trades even if I gave twice the beaker value.)
2) The huge military stacks the AI was using, and the amount of troops they were able to produce very quickly.
3) Espionage... My techs were stolen no less than 6 times. And I was not able to counter espionage efficiently... I need to figure this out.
4) How do you deal with AI cities stalking yours in continental maps where you can't block/bottle them??

I'll keep practicing.

 

[BigTime]

Sarassin, please put all that in spoilers. That reveals AIs, and land. You could play prince if you want, just use the noble save and select prince. That way the AIs won't start with archers, but will still have Prince handicaps.