Monarchist Cookbook Game 3, Hammurabi of Babylon!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Bleys, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. Negator_UK

    Negator_UK King

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    ... but befor I go...:)

    Nooo, get stuck in NOW...

    I've played 1.4 rounds of this, my first (whatever this is..) and my play has already improved noticably, especially in warmongering and maybe whipping too, two things I was really bad at before.

    Just loading the games and looking at them without even posting is helpful, playing them to see how you would fare is even better.

    All this with no need to post if you don't want to....
     
  2. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    I'm sad to report that I'm out of this round, and probably the rest of MC3, thanks to what looks like a very serious (i.e. possibly fatal) case of :badcomp:

    This is particularly depressing right now as I was really enjoying this game, and felt I'd made a great start to the current round. :sad:

    For what it's worth, here's a brief explanation of the plan I concocted, and of the sixteen turns I managed to play before my machine went on strike:

    Spoiler :

    My plan for the first part of the turnset was simple - quickly regroup, then hit Toku with two stacks (one moving along the coast, the other through the interior), force him to capitulate, then rush my troops to the other end of the empire to invade HC.

    Now I know that many players baulk at this type of strategy, but I had several reasons for adopting it:

    1) Many of Toku's cities were utter junk, only worth having for the resources they claimed. Vassalising him meant I could have the resources without the maintenance costs. And that, in turn, meant I could afford to expand elsewhere. Had I razed the cities, then Darius would've taken those sites, making him stronger in the long-term.

    2) Vassals count towards your power rating (as far as AI civs are concerned), making it easier to vassalise the next guy. My intention was to do the same to HC as I did to Toku - take his good cities for myself, and leave him with the junk. Depending on how things had worked out, a rolling vassal/conquest victory might have offered a swift conclusion to the game.

    3) The quicker I could end the war with Toku, the quicker I could get my army over to HC, hopefully hitting him before he managed to get Longbows online. In any case, I was pretty sure I'd have enough troops to take the cities I wanted.

    4) From what I could see, the two principle threats on this map were going to be KK and Darius, each having access to a decent swathe of quality land. Normally, these would be the guys I'd look to take out early. But thanks to the distances involved, this wasn't an option. However, by invading HC, I would open up KK as a target for the next war. Meanwhile, having Toku at my back would give me a decent buffer against Darius, should the latter get any funny ideas while I was busy in the east.

    5) HC already had the Pyramids and, a few turns into the round, he picked up the ToA as well. Plus, he has the holy city for what looks like the only religion on this continent (no shrine yet, though). Add that lot to what we already had, and the game would be all but over. Indeed, I seriously considered going for HC straight away instead of Toku. But I reasoned that, with most of my troops already in position, the Japanese would crumble quickly enough. And I certainly did not want to risk Darius taking Toku as a vassal.

    Unfortunately, I only got as far as vassalising Toku before my PC died. But everything was going very much according to plan at that point. Here's what happened in those sixteen turns:

    Techpath: MC -> Feudalism ->Aesthetics -> (next: Literature)

    Going for MC was a slight mistake, as I could've got it in trade. I wasn't to know that, though, and my reasoning was that forges would be very helpful, giving +2:) once Toku's gold was secured, while the hammer bonus would feed into my masterplan very nicely. I was also hoping to grab the Colossus (trading for copper from KK), which would reap considerable benefits, given the amount of seafood I was collecting.

    At the time things went belly-up, I was unsure whether to go for the Great Library, but I reckon I could've grabbed that after the Colossus, given the awesome hammer output of the capital. In any case, I wanted access to the Heroic Epic, and hopefully to grab the Great Artist from Music for a Golden Age to steady my overstretched economy later in the round.

    I set the cities at the extremities of the empire to build courthouses, but everywhere else kept pumping troops. The GG was used to create a Medic3 Chariot (which also picked up Morale during the war), to speed the turnaround from Toku to HC.

    Ten turns into the round I declared on Toku, and sent one stack along the coast to take Izumo and Nagasaki, while the other went for Satsuma via Kagoshima. The war lasted a grand total of six turns, and all four cities were captured without a single casualty (the only unit risked at less than 50% was a disposapult which survived attacking Satsuma at 13%).

    My last act, before shutting my PC down for what I now know may have been the last time, was to take Toku's capitulation, gift the useless Kagoshima back to him, and demand a supply of Gold to keep my citizens happy.


    Edit: hehe, maybe brief was the wrong word...
     
  3. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    hey winston, sorry to hear about your comp, i HATE it when that happens!

    @everyone, i'm hoping to play and post my round hopefully later tonight! yesterday was my fantasy football draft :p
     
  4. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

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    ouch, sorry to hear about your computron going belly up Winston, good plan that though,
    Spoiler :
    vassel/conquest, now why didnt i think of that. hrm it would definatly have solved a number of problems that i'm encountering involving slowly growing crap cities and cultural push from darius.
     
  5. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

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    Gah...... nothing worse than computer problems. I had to do a fresh instal just a few weeks ago....I feel your pain, though yours sounds more serious

    looking forward to more reports, WH was great, but it's just a little tease ;)
     
  6. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

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    Checking in with a save and a report:

    Spoiler :

    I had pretty much the same idea as Winston, but with a rather poor execution. I got to the point where I wanted Toku to capitulate and realized that I needed Feudalism. :wallbash: So I took peace for around 13 turns until Feudalism was in and proceeded to make him capitulate. Researched aesthetics-literature-music-calendar-feudalism and started on philosophy. Might have been some other techs in there. Missed the GA from Music.

    I didn't research machinery because I thought I would get a GS and bulb education. Got a second GSpy instead. First GSpy settled in Inca city to steal techs and prep for taking down cultural defenses. The down side is, I don't have machinery or engineering, but can steal machinery in a couple of turns and still have enough EP to revolt 2-3 Incan cities.

    We have a GSpy awaiting use. We are getting free gold and marble from Toku. GL is built in Babylon

    All in all, I'm not real happy with this turnset. Any criticisms (or positive points) are welcomed.

    Here are some screens:













     

    Attached Files:

  7. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Hi all, another lackluster report. Maybe tomorrow I will add more details:

    Spoiler :


    I ended up with the same idea as everyone else: finish Toku then hit HC.

    First I canceled the ivory to HC deal!!!

    Then I noted that as of 475AD everyone was buddhism and happy-go-lucky with everyone else...

    535-Give CoL to Darius when requested
    565-Redeclare on Toku
    580-Try to work on diplo with Shaka gifting him monarchy/poly (annoyed-cautious) and bribing him with currency/col to go to war with Toku for the shared war bonus. Open borders with him and give him gems for 3gpt. Hoping to get him to be a long-term ally for the war against Darius.

    (Compass done somewhere in here)

    610-GS born in capital...bulb Philo; Taoism in Akkad
    625-Raze Nagasaki; raze Yakohama
    640-Wheat to HC for wine
    685-Calendar in start paper
    715-Capture Nara
    730-Capture Nagoya; clam to Darius for incense; CoL+aesthetics to HC for MC; whip bunch of courthouses
    745-Restructure deal to Shaka: gems->fur; aesthetics to Darius for 145; phil + 145 to HC for machinery (goal is to add much-needed maces for war against HC; machinery is a monopoly tech but he trades it because we are friendly)
    775-Take Kagoshima, Toku dead
    790-Complete GL in Babylon
    835-Finish paper, going after engineering
    910-gift col to KK at his request
    920-music in, but don't get GA alas
    960-aesth to KK for WM to scope HC's lands prior to attack
    970-war on HC...plan was to bribe Shaka into the war too because last time I checked he was pleased and would go to war against HC for some techs...but now he wouldn't do it saying he liked HC too much :mad: instead give him aesth, cal, and compass for feudalism, WM and 50
    980-HC bribes Shaka to declare on us :mad: However, Shaka does nothing at all except send a single archer which we kill
    1030-GSpy born...darn it I was hoping for another GS to bulb Educ...settle him in Babylon
    1060-Sack Ollataytambo...thank heavens...it had Chichen Itza in it! We need trebs badly
    1110-Sack Tikmatku or whatever it's called (MoM, SP)

    I leave it at this point whether to take a ceasefire, accept his capitulation (we don't have his capital yet), or some other option.

    The save is attached.

     

    Attached Files:

  8. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    After a night's sleep, some more thoughts:

    Spoiler :


    I put the NE in our capital and the HE in Toku's former capital. I would've prefered to switch those around, but then I either would've probably lost the GL or not had the NE in the GL city. The HE will be a half-decent location though for when we attack Darius. I'm still hoping to have Shaka as an ally for that war. Since he declared on us, we should still be able to get him back to pleased in a decent timeframe. KK could be bribed into war against Darius too to keep him off our flanks.

    I have the FPal started in a central city in Toku's former empire. Once that is completed, our maintenance in that area will ease up a lot imo. We will have marble finally after the second border pop in one of Toku's former cities. At the very least this should help us out a lot with the Taj Mahal.

    I had hoped for a GS, but got very unlucky with a GSpy. Hopefully we: 1) Can put that espionage to use and focus it against Darius in prep for a later war with him; and 2) Get a GS next to bulb educ and set us up for liberalism.

    I have a caravel out scouting for new lands. I've already found some islands. I'm thinking there is at least 1 other AI out there somewhere, right? We met Toku/Shaka/Darius/Kublai/HC plus us that only makes 6 total?

    I think at the very least we need to take HC's capital. Not only is it pumping massive culture, but it has the pyramids and maybe other wonders...pretty sure it has the colossus for e.g. I think we could plan to take a ceasefire and then when we are ready take out his last inland cities and vassal him leaving him with the coastal city he has. I'm worried though about him vassalizing to Kublai...so that is something to consider.

    All in all, I like the idea of taking vassals, but I think we need to increase our military and trebs will be important for that imo.

     
  9. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Hey guys, any update on this one?
     
  10. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

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    Looks like everyone is busy this week. We have 4 saves in so far:

    Bleys
    Ranion
    rddc (yours truly)
    futurehermit

    I don't think WH's machine is going to be fixed in time to look at the save, so...should be fairly easy to compare the saves. I will post thoughts tonight or tomorrow when I have some time.
     
  11. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    My bad, somewhat, sorry guys. I have been trying out the FFH 2 v032 MOD the past week, and its learning curve is even bigger than this one.

    I didnt even do a full report, heh, sorry about that too. I will have a look at the posted saves though, and make a vote. rddc is right, with only 4 to look at, we should be able to come to a consensus. I am hoping everyone who has been involved in this MC can take a peek at the saves and make a pick, even if you didnt have time to play your round this week.
     
  12. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

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    i'll be busy for the next couple of days, but i'll try to make a decision regarding this, i'll probably be slow to play the next round when we get to it however.

    there hasn't been much discussion so far about how the rounds progressed, i think mainly we're going to be looking at who made the best progression along the more or less shared path, given that we all followed something of the same idea for this rounds play. to that end, FH maybe, given that he is in the process of smacking around HC? I havn't looked closely at all the saves though so i'm not really sure.
     
  13. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

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    Well, all of the saves are pretty close in tech and development and strategy. Bleys is a bit more out in front on the tech race, Ranion's economy is in the best shape and FH is farthest along on the presumptive conquest of the Incas. I also like Bleys' southwestern expansion.

    All other things being pretty equal, and assuming we are going for a domination win, I would have to go with FH's save. His FP location is good for turning on Darius (with Shaka to follow). Finishing off HC is a bit worrisome without much in the way of siege engines, but likely doable.

    For the record, the plan in my save was to steal Machinery from HC, get lots of gold from double hammers in Babylon converted to gold when Parthenon is lost, upgrade to Maces (maybe switch from Philo to Engineering for upgrade to Trebs) and use EP to take down cultural defenses in Incan cities during the Incan invasion. The extra GSpy could be settled in Incan city if needed, or in a Persian city for the next round of conquest and more tech stealing.
     
  14. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Just checkin in here to say I might not be able to play next round since I am OOP on vacation mosto of next week. Very sorry. :blush:
     
  15. Negator_UK

    Negator_UK King

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    Hi Guys.

    I'm back off holiday, dodn't expect my round to count as its submitted more than 3.5 days after start, but if its acceptable. then let me know and I'll do a full write-up.

    Otherwise here is the save and a short summary.

    Spoiler :
    Didn't figure vassalising Toku like everyone else, went for the killer blow, finished him off by turn 240, spent next 15 turns building and whipping new cities and replacing one that I burned (not the best one to burn it turned out, but no matter its back now).

    Also didn't really do the aesthetics thing. Instead went for engineering figuring to tech up slightly before next war (although only have a few pikemen so far). (I did this because a recent game I conquered MM only to have my butt kicked because I didn't keep teching up.)

    The good news is I am most of the way through Notre Dame (help heal the whipping welts) and can still trade for aesthetics if need be. I don't have any Toku problems because he's DEAD.

    I didn't expect everyone to go for Huanya as in my game he's friendly and I like him that way. My plan is to go for Darius next, and maybe vasssalise him as a shield against shaka, then tech->spaceship or onwards into shaka for Dom win.
     

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  16. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

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    why shouldn't it count? we've barely made any discussion at all regarding this round, and we certainly haven't chosen a winner yet. speaking of which i should actually take a look at all these saves and try to contribute something to the discussion.
     
  17. Negator_UK

    Negator_UK King

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    Well I was surprised to see you were all still on the same page of the thread as when i left :)

    However I believe the setup is actually 3.5 days play and 3.5 days chat/haggling. Since i am posting in the latter period my save may not count - need a call on this - bleys ??

    I too need to examine the other saves now .......
     
  18. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    your save should count imo since we've been slow this round. sometimes there is a lag in the summers because people are busy. for example, i just moved to a different city and am still getting settled in, etc.
     
  19. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

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    I agree, i've already stated i see no problem with counting your save in this round, thats 2/4 of us who submitted saves besides yourself, heck if you were to say it counts that would give our side the majority. :p

    at anyrate after examining the saves i still like FH, he has a good tech position and he's set to finish off HC right quick, after that it all depends on how each of us feels to determine where we go next. he also has a caravel out scouting for that last AI.

    after FH i think i like my own for the shape of my economy and the fact that i have machinery and engineering, i'm building trebs and moving maces into position. just trade for optics and declare on HC or darius, or even run a peaceful game from that point out using the 'well founded' economy to jump start the true run for lib. biggest downside is i planned mainly for war, getting drama on the way to music instead of lit, letting HC grab the glib (along with all his other wonders) to save me the hammers. which leaves me out a couple techs and wonders that would really help to push towards lib and beyond.
     
  20. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    Summer does indeed tend to put a damper on play. Neg_UK, your save is absolutely allowed into the vote, hermit is right, we are playing these slower, so no worries.

    I looked at the saves, and I am placing my vote for hermit as well. While I like rddc's idea of taking Toku as a vassal, he is behind in techs a bit. ranion, myself and Neg_UK are all pretty close together, I think we can take out HC with a few more units, and that will give us a pile of wonders handy wonders. Shaka is no real threat, he doesnt have Open Borders with Darius.

    Hopefully we can keep the interest. There is still a mystery AI out there. I dont think this game is completely "in hand" just yet. Our diplomacy is a bit ragged with KK from the religious thing, but taking out HC will put us in a commanding position.
     

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