r_rolo1
King of myself
Something like this is out , I suppose....
Monarchist Cookbook Game II
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TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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. How often do players wind up getting hunting with the express purpose of using it in the BFC?! The fur industry is really strong all of a sudden.I'm not good with my flags. Rome? Babylon? I don't think it would matter. You could tech key military techs so fast you could have swords in the AI's face before 1000 BC.
It's kind of a shame how some of the better starts you get is when looking for a bad one
.
r_rolo1
King of myself
It's Rome and it is not mine..... in fact I took it from the "Funny screenshots" just to use in those recurring debates about the existance of plains fur ... but , making faith on the poster the rest of the land was awful. Not dificult to beleive, seeing the iced tiles on the right
And Rome gets preats .....
... but , making faith on the poster the rest of the land was awful. Not dificult to beleive, seeing the iced tiles on the right And Rome gets preats .....
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I think I am able to prove you wrong here, but that would be by making a laughingstock of myself, so I won't.
(Meaning I am trying my first emperor game and I could do better. Otoh, I have Pacal, Alex and Freddie as neighboors
- add Gilgamesh alone on another continent and the fact that I have merely 5 cities (size: Small), going for cultural, and you can see my point. )
r_rolo1
King of myself
@Diamond
Compete != Win
Compete != Win
Bleys
Deity
OK I played my set. To be honest, I feel like doing a long report would be a semi waste of time. This game is WAY over, other than the proverbial fat-lady doing her thing. So while I am attaching my save, I think we should "call" this one right now, and just play til the end. Here are some highlights from my save:
Thats about it. Other than having to build a pile of forges and barracks, and replace most of the garrison units so my Cats could actually be used to attack something, heh, its an easy game.
Spoiler :
Thats about it. Other than having to build a pile of forges and barracks, and replace most of the garrison units so my Cats could actually be used to attack something, heh, its an easy game.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Sorry I'm having a hard time with my computer today ( 40ºC on shadow is a nice recipe for overheating issues.... ) I can't assure that my comp will not shut down again while I play
If I play to the end , don't expect a report though...
If I play to the end , don't expect a report though...
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Uhh yeah R_Rolo go ahead and 
because it's too hot! You know how the weather is in Denmark at the moment ?
Freaking bad, it is! Been pouring down all day
Well, just a notice: I will be off on vacation from 29th June to 6th July and again from 9th July to 19th July.
In between these two I will be able to update the bullpen to include a link to a third game (which I belive Bleys should start when we're done here?), but I probably won't be able to play a round. I will be having heavy hangovers so bear over with me
because it's too hot! You know how the weather is in Denmark at the moment ? Freaking bad, it is! Been pouring down all day
Well, just a notice: I will be off on vacation from 29th June to 6th July and again from 9th July to 19th July.
In between these two I will be able to update the bullpen to include a link to a third game (which I belive Bleys should start when we're done here?), but I probably won't be able to play a round. I will be having heavy hangovers so bear over with me
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Florida (USA) gets pretty obnoxious in the summer with the heat and FREQUENT rain (you get 1-2 hours of rain per day more often than not here), fortunately I have AC. When the AC was knocked out 2 summers ago the computer had no chance. Too hot, too humid. I feel your pain .
.
Well, I've been away for a week and I came back to find pretty much what I expected when I left - you guys have given up on this game because it's got too easy.
However, I would contend that the biggest problem here was not the map, but the first two best-ball saves. This was never going to be a hard map - I knew from testing it that it would end up as a pretty easy win. But it could at least have provided a decent challenge along the way.
In the event, though, vale's saves were far better than I had thought possible from any Monarch- or Emperor-level player. After his second round, it was clear that the rest of the game would pose no challenge at all.
And here's the real essence of the problem - this was not one of the easier maps I rolled. Not by a long shot. Most were much easier, including some that I initially picked as being very tough. Moreover, the few that would have worked out tougher in practice left almost no room for strategic variation - the best strategy in each case seemed blatantly obvious.
So, if this format is to work, I can see four viable options, each of which has at least one major drawback:
1) Limit the choice of saves to those provided by roster players only (which, I believe, was the idea in the first place). Obviously, this will seriously limit the participation of non-roster players. Edit: And most (all?) games will still work out too easy.
2) Move up to Emperor. It wouldn't really be a Monarchist's Cookbook anymore, though.
3) Keep things as they are, but have someone pick a brutally hard random start. You can probably say goodbye to serious strategic variations with this option - it'll mostly be a matter of micro differences, which are often hard to spot and even harder to learn from.
4) Keep things as they are, but have have someone use the options and WB to create a map that will provide both difficulty and room for strategic variation (imagine if I had taken this map, deleted the copper and the corn, and strengthened the starts of some or all of the AI civs). This, however, moves us in the direction of playing scenarios, rather than random maps.
Maybe there's something I've missed, but I think that sums up the possibilities.
Anyhow, I'm sorry I didn't manage to give you a save that could go the distance. I did my best. But, as rolo mentioned in the bullpen thread, this map-choosing lark is a lot harder than it looks.
However, I would contend that the biggest problem here was not the map, but the first two best-ball saves. This was never going to be a hard map - I knew from testing it that it would end up as a pretty easy win. But it could at least have provided a decent challenge along the way.
In the event, though, vale's saves were far better than I had thought possible from any Monarch- or Emperor-level player. After his second round, it was clear that the rest of the game would pose no challenge at all.
And here's the real essence of the problem - this was not one of the easier maps I rolled. Not by a long shot. Most were much easier, including some that I initially picked as being very tough. Moreover, the few that would have worked out tougher in practice left almost no room for strategic variation - the best strategy in each case seemed blatantly obvious.
So, if this format is to work, I can see four viable options, each of which has at least one major drawback:
1) Limit the choice of saves to those provided by roster players only (which, I believe, was the idea in the first place). Obviously, this will seriously limit the participation of non-roster players. Edit: And most (all?) games will still work out too easy.
2) Move up to Emperor. It wouldn't really be a Monarchist's Cookbook anymore, though.
3) Keep things as they are, but have someone pick a brutally hard random start. You can probably say goodbye to serious strategic variations with this option - it'll mostly be a matter of micro differences, which are often hard to spot and even harder to learn from.
4) Keep things as they are, but have have someone use the options and WB to create a map that will provide both difficulty and room for strategic variation (imagine if I had taken this map, deleted the copper and the corn, and strengthened the starts of some or all of the AI civs). This, however, moves us in the direction of playing scenarios, rather than random maps.
Maybe there's something I've missed, but I think that sums up the possibilities.
Anyhow, I'm sorry I didn't manage to give you a save that could go the distance. I did my best. But, as rolo mentioned in the bullpen thread, this map-choosing lark is a lot harder than it looks.
r_rolo1
King of myself
No problem winston.... like you said, vale had a huge opening and , after that, it was just steamrolling. Map making is a hard businees and sometimes the games get too easy/too hard for our expectations.....
I'm opposed to any scenarization of this.... It would break completely the idea of the game IMHO. But going emperor....
. There already are more than enough emperor games in here now ( even if ALC goes Immortal ) and no Monarch one besides this.
I'm opposed to any scenarization of this.... It would break completely the idea of the game IMHO. But going emperor....
. There already are more than enough emperor games in here now ( even if ALC goes Immortal ) and no Monarch one besides this.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Go for the harder starts. I think you're underrating micro variations. One of my biggest weaknesses is micro (and IMO that's what's holding me back on immortal). Vale's incredible early saves were eye openers - as to be expected from a player who wrote an article on drafting mechanics . I could certainly have succeeded with my early rush - on THIS difficulty - and still won the game. However, in the same amount of time, Vale not only completely wiped my target out, but he also built wonders. That tells me I have some learning to do...that kind of power is just what I need on immortal, even more than strategic ability in my case (which, IMO, is pretty solid for me, unlike my micro).
So I vote for the "hard starts" without tampering with the map in worldbuilder. I'd imagine I'm not the only player out there that needs to shore up micro.
. I could certainly have succeeded with my early rush - on THIS difficulty - and still won the game. However, in the same amount of time, Vale not only completely wiped my target out, but he also built wonders. That tells me I have some learning to do...that kind of power is just what I need on immortal, even more than strategic ability in my case (which, IMO, is pretty solid for me, unlike my micro).So I vote for the "hard starts" without tampering with the map in worldbuilder. I'd imagine I'm not the only player out there that needs to shore up micro.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Harder starts definately, if those are the choices 
.
Besides, even if an opening strategy seems blatantly obvious, I might miss it.
"Oh, we're Tokugawa starting next to Gandhi. How nice. He's a decent trading partner"
Maybe not that blind, but I definately like to try out something I think other people might not vouch as the best option. But hell, that'll atleast give some variety...
Okay. Lets wrap this one up and have a go at a really tough map. Ice in the bfc for the win!
.Besides, even if an opening strategy seems blatantly obvious, I might miss it.
"Oh, we're Tokugawa starting next to Gandhi. How nice. He's a decent trading partner"
Maybe not that blind, but I definately like to try out something I think other people might not vouch as the best option. But hell, that'll atleast give some variety...
Okay. Lets wrap this one up and have a go at a really tough map. Ice in the bfc for the win!
Bleys
Deity
Vale also has an excellent grip on whip/chop overflow mechanics, something that is VERY important for the "Monarch+ level player". Personally, I think the power of the 2-pop whip and pre-chop mechanic is one of the things that has pushed my game to "near solid-Emperor" level. I have actually been playing some Emp games recently, with my choice of leader and map though, basically seeing how viable the GLH power-REX strat is at that level, and I have found it to be pretty easy to get a solid, equalized positions. Of course, I am using a specific strat with a leader and map set up to fit, so thats not quite the same as "any leader, any map". I feel I can play any leader, any map at Monarch, but I can lose very easily at Emp with a bad start or fit.
As for this series, I think we keep it Monarch, and play it much like we have been, and just sort of agree that Vale is ineligible for an official Best Ball this next game. I still want him to play a shadow, for comparison sake, because *I* learn from him (just as I wish Nares would come back, since I learned from him as well, that coastal-city-pack style he showed in the first game is HUGE on Emp, its kind of what I have been fooling around with, with EXP leaders like Izzy, Pacal, and Washington, monster starts, I am beginning to think EXP is the single best TRE trait in the game).
And just to re-enforce what others have said, map-choosing IS a difficult task. Trust me, I have done it a bunch of times now for PYLs, and there is always something here or there that could be better or harder or makes it too hard or easy or whatever. I would like to someone to pick a map for us though, but I do think we should be picking the leader we wish to play among ourselves. Its easier to find a "trickier" map if you have a leader in mind, like tricky-horses Egyptian or Persian, or tricky-Iron Roman or Celt, or landlocked Willem or Hannibal, etc. Random leaders are fine for offline games, or even regular SGs, but I think that a series that strives for educational value SHOULD be choosing its leaders game by game. If we have a leader, then our Map-Maker will have a better idea of what is or isnt a good or bad fit. As I said, this particular game would have been FAR FAR different if the Copper was down in the Tundra instead of the BFC.
As for this series, I think we keep it Monarch, and play it much like we have been, and just sort of agree that Vale is ineligible for an official Best Ball this next game. I still want him to play a shadow, for comparison sake, because *I* learn from him (just as I wish Nares would come back, since I learned from him as well, that coastal-city-pack style he showed in the first game is HUGE on Emp, its kind of what I have been fooling around with, with EXP leaders like Izzy, Pacal, and Washington, monster starts, I am beginning to think EXP is the single best TRE trait in the game).
And just to re-enforce what others have said, map-choosing IS a difficult task. Trust me, I have done it a bunch of times now for PYLs, and there is always something here or there that could be better or harder or makes it too hard or easy or whatever. I would like to someone to pick a map for us though, but I do think we should be picking the leader we wish to play among ourselves. Its easier to find a "trickier" map if you have a leader in mind, like tricky-horses Egyptian or Persian, or tricky-Iron Roman or Celt, or landlocked Willem or Hannibal, etc. Random leaders are fine for offline games, or even regular SGs, but I think that a series that strives for educational value SHOULD be choosing its leaders game by game. If we have a leader, then our Map-Maker will have a better idea of what is or isnt a good or bad fit. As I said, this particular game would have been FAR FAR different if the Copper was down in the Tundra instead of the BFC.
futurehermit
Deity
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I agree, we should pick our leader.
Bleys
Deity
I am going to continue this conversation, and also discuss a map-maker for the next round, in the bullpen thread.
Bleys
Deity
What is the status of this game? Are we going to pick a save or just sort of "play it out" again and see how the various players decided to win the game.
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