Monarchist Cookbook Game II

OTAKUjbski · Jun 1, 2008

RE: Blue Marble Terrain:

Don't mind me ...

Solon70 · Jun 1, 2008

Okay, I played this last night, so let me post my report. I felt I played a very scatterbrained round, although I still may have a winning position which says something about the strength of the map. I feel like Monarch is pretty much right where I'm at right now, while everyone else seems to be a cut above, so really I just try to do the best I can and learn something. Here's my report through 1000 BC.

Spoiler :

siggboy · Jun 2, 2008

vale said:
I read through the other reports. I'm surprised nobody else settled Athens 1e to pick up the corn. I expected almost everyone to do something to pick up the corn.

I've settled 1E for the corn :-)

. It was a rather easy decision to make, one lost turn is not a problem and having forest on that spot meant no risk of losing hammers from a hidden metal tile. That it gave me somehwhat earlier access to copper as well was sheer luck.

Siggboy's round sounds intriguing to me. I really can't stop kicking myself about razing Novgorod

I'm much more intrigued by your round than my own, and it gets my vote for the Best Ball Save (if I have any :-)

.

You've got the GW built and the Pyramids about to finish, as well as a lot of granaries and libraries in place. Your micromanagement was great, much better than mine (actually there was not a lot of micromanagement in my round to speak of). You also got the +2 health event and two free techs from huts. I've got two more cities out and still 7 turns to play until 1000 BC, but overall I think you're in a better position due to better infrastructure and the Mids.

Razing Novgorod was a bad move and lost you a lot of hammers but nobody is perfect.

I don't think settling the first Great Scientist was that good. You should have built an Academy instead.

Bleys said:
Sigh, I am depressed by my round, totally blew it moving to that coast. Stupid blue circles, I thought for SURE there was a fish up there!

There's something hidden to the west (which we know because of how that Lion moved) which explains the blue circle. Your start was quite unconventional but I'd love to see you shadow it. The value of the GLH is hard to tell by now but it might turn out to be strong depending on how fast you get to Astronomy and what you're going to do with the opposition on the map, since they're trading partners.

vale said:
I enjoy the blue marble terrain when I play FFH (I think thats what they use) but not enough to put the effort into finding and installing yet another mod.

Blue Marble has a one-click installer/deinstaller and does not interfere with HOF Mod, so there's no reason not to try it out.

vale · Jun 2, 2008

siggboy said:
Razing Novgorod was a bad move and lost you a lot of hammers but nobody is perfect.

At the time that I did it I think it seemed right. My attack order was St. Petersburg -> Novgorod -> Moscow. Moscow had 5 archers in it still and I only had around 9 or 10 Phalanxes. So I didn't foresee taking Moscow very quickly. The culture from Moscow would have made that city suck until I could get some more phalanxes to bear against it which wasn't going to be instantaneous.

I did regret not keeping it when Peter abandoned Moscow for whatever reason. It's just hard to predict that type of thing though.

I don't think settling the first Great Scientist was that good. You should have built an Academy instead.

I think the math is strongly in favor of settling here. It was pretty apparent I was in 0% research territory here and I'm still whipping out of Athens so it won't even be running 2 scientists all the time so the numbers I'm about to give are being generous to the Academy except for the fact that I'm ignoring culture which I am not valuing here as it seems to be a waste to take this start to a cultural victory (not that it would be that rough given Odeons in 14 turns.):

With Representation:
Academy: 6 extra beakers per turn (+50% on the 12 beakers from scientists)
Settled: 11.25 beakers per turn (9 beakers per turn from the GS +25% from the library) and 1 hammer per turn

Without Representation:
Academy: 3 extra beakers per turn (+50% on the 6 beakers from scientists)
Settled: 7.5 beakers per turn (6 beakers per turn from the GS +25% from the library) and 1 hammer per turn.

In fact I plan to do the exact same thing with the GS that is due in 9 turns out of Sparta (settle it in Athens with plans to build the Academy with the one after that which will surely be born in Athens). Math on that one:
Academy with representation: 7.5 extra beakers per turn (+50% on the 15 beakers from the scientists and Great Scientist)
Settled: 11.25 beakers per turn (9 beakers from the GS +25% from the library) and 1 hammer per turn.

Sure if my tech rate jumps up, the Academy will be better beakerwise. But realistically, it will probably need to stay at 0% for a long time. Even with surplus gold coming in from Monty, I prefer to leave it at 0% at this point while a war is going on. The hammers also make me a little happier because production will still be quite relevant until Monty is dead. And by the time war is over, I expect the third GS to have been born who will certainly be making an academy which will be worth 12 beakers per turn for sure at that point.

Blue Marble has a one-click installer/deinstaller and does not interfere with HOF Mod, so there's no reason not to try it out.

I'll take a look.

Quotey · Jun 2, 2008

Blue Marble is ugly! Have you seen the ice and tundra?

On the blue circle thing for Bleys/Siggboy: The blue circle thing does NOT see anything you can't. It doesn't look into the fog or into hidden resources. If you'd ever make a decision based on a blue circle, when you can see no tiles is not the time.

siggboy · Jun 2, 2008

@Vale:

Our campaigns were very similar, as we ended war in the exact same turn and took the exact same three cities. I still had all my auto saves, so I decided to have a close look and see what was different:

First I checked into World Builder to see how many defenders Russia had when I declared (I covered up the minimap with my hand and only looked at the units inside the three cities quickly, so I don't have gathered any unauthorized information mind you). 2 Archers in each of his cities, and a Settler waiting inside Moscow.

St. Petersburg was taken with zero losses, I then marched straight to Moscow. Moscow's size had reduced by 1, the settler was gone but he still had 2 Archers in there. Checking WB again it turned out that he escorted the settler into Novgorod with 1 Archer that he must have whipped.

I took Moscow (guarded by two Archers) at the loss of 2 Phalanxes. Even one more defender would not have made a big difference as I was standing in front of the gates with 7 units.

The settler/archer pair had moved on by that time, standing on flat land outside Novgorod. Of course I killed him with my SoD, and the roads in neutral territory allowed the SoD to move on right next to Novgorod (capturing another worker). I was ready to take Novgorod on the next turn.

Novgorod was taken, three Archers guarding it -- I had a CR III Phalanx at this point which could make the first attack at ~95% odds (the other two both had well over 60% odds). I lost no Phalanxes at all. Actually I could have gotten unlucky and then my 4 attackers would not have been enough...

I had to kill a total of 8 Archers, 2 in St. Pete, 2 in Moscow and 3 in Novgorod, and one on flat lands, losing 2 Phalanxes out of my 8. I've got a CR III Phalanx now, so there's the level 4 unit ;-).

I've also noticed a grassland mine outside of Moscow (which you mentioned in your own report) and an Axeman was in its build queue already when I checked WB for the second time. So it appears that my attack came at just the right time, and going for the capital ASAP was the right move. Had I decided for an attrition tactic (taking Moscow last) it would have been quite a bit harder because he would have produced at least 1 Axeman defender in the capital.

I think the only thing that was different was that you gave Russia additional time to get more defenders into the capital -- getting lucky when Russia decided to use those defenders to go on a counter-attack.

vale · Jun 2, 2008

He had 5 archers in Moscow as I marched past after the initial declaration. How do you suppose I was supposed to take that city? I only had around 5-6 phalanxes at the front at that point (remember I declared before you because I had a free crack at an unprotected archer) which gives me approximately a 0% chance to take that city. Technically it is higher than that but for all intents and purposes it was not possible.

So I pillaged him. Killed the hamlet on the iron tile and road as well just in case he tried to get a mine down at some point. Also killed the corn to minimize whipping. After that all he had available to work were forest tiles and a cottage at pop 2. So what was I risking exactly? Him getting an extra defender in a city I already knew I couldn't take yet? This was unfortunate. I had hopes of catching him with minimal defenders when I was able to declare early especially after catching the archer outside and taking St. Petersburg with no losses as well. But I didn't.

I know I got lucky at certain points and made some possibly different decisions at others, but not attacking moscow with 6 phalanxes against 5 archers was definitely NOT one of them. Your timing on your DoW worked out in your favor because of that extra settler. I did not have that benefit.

If Moscow had had 2 archers in it when I got there, I would have taken it easily as well. Since it didn't I don't see what the point is in comparing my decision to bypass it and raze Novgorod first to yours of taking it immediately.

Edit to add: I just checked my stats. I had to kill 10 archers including that one that precipitated the early DoW. Event though my campaign started earlier, it took longer because of that. I don't press when the odds aren't strongly in my favor (for instance novgorod with 3 archers I didn't go until I had 6 phalanxes available even though it was like 60+% for each fight).

TheMeInTeam · Jun 2, 2008

vale said:
He had 5 archers in Moscow as I marched past after the initial declaration. How do you suppose I was supposed to take that city? I only had around 5-6 phalanxes at the front at that point (remember I declared before you because I had a free crack at an unprotected archer) which gives me approximately a 0% chance to take that city. Technically it is higher than that but for all intents and purposes it was not possible.

So I pillaged him. Killed the hamlet on the iron tile and road as well just in case he tried to get a mine down at some point. Also killed the corn to minimize whipping. After that all he had available to work were forest tiles and a cottage at pop 2. So what was I risking exactly? Him getting an extra defender in a city I already knew I couldn't take yet? This was unfortunate. I had hopes of catching him with minimal defenders when I was able to declare early especially after catching the archer outside and taking St. Petersburg with no losses as well. But I didn't.

I know I got lucky at certain points and made some possibly different decisions at others, but not attacking moscow with 6 phalanxes against 5 archers was definitely NOT one of them. Your timing on your DoW worked out in your favor because of that extra settler. I did not have that benefit.

If Moscow had had 2 archers in it when I got there, I would have taken it easily as well. Since it didn't I don't see what the point is in comparing my decision to bypass it and raze Novgorod first to yours of taking it immediately.

If you stay a reasonable distance away from an AI city that has lots of archers and pop, it will tend to make a settler and move some archers with it in escort.

Another trick that is viable in situations like this, is to war/stop/war/stop. Basically, you ransack a city, take a CEASE FIRE (NOT a peace treaty), so that you can redeclare at the drop of a hat. Then, the second you see something vulnerable (worker steal, city with minimal garrisons, etc), pounce on it. Rinse and repeat. Does Montezuma like Peter in your game? In mine they were still cautious, which means there is literally no diplo penalty for doing this (other than that peter will hate you greatly before you kill him

). In a test game with impi the other day I wiped out 2 civs and took control of the largest continent on that map with nothing but impi (which admittedly lend themselves to such a tactic VERY well). Enemies having metal didn't matter because the AI would lose so many workers and units/cities before they could react, then I'd take peace (even on emperor if you do this much damage they'll want peace). Similar to this game, the diplo penalty was minimal (I actually won using the UN even though I could have gone domination easily :lol:

).

Basically, there are ways to bait that garrison out, and usually sooner than later

. You encountered one of them while playing!

Rameau's Nephew · Jun 2, 2008

OTAKUjbski said:
@ Rameau's Nephew:

Sparta, Lighthouse: Why? Typically in my non-seafood coastal cities I wait until after I'm working all the Grassland [Cottage/Farm] tiles before I build a Lighthouse and work the coastal tiles. I'm not saying it's a bad move, I'm just curious ...

I don't recall exactly, but I think I did it because I didn't want to make any more units at the moment (which, in hindsight, was silly) and there weren't any other buildings/wonders to build in the city (plus I lacked the tech to build Research or Wealth). I figured it would want a LH eventually. To my credit, I did take a citizen out of the mines and made him a Scientist when I stopped cranking Phalanxes, so I did recognize that such production was a low priority.

siggboy · Jun 2, 2008

Here's my 1000 BC save if you want to consider it.

Notable differences between mine and Vale's game, which are quite similar overall:

He does have the GW, the Mids and a settled GS with one more due in 9 turns. I have neither wonder and my first GS is only due in 13 turns.

He's got 4 cities while I have 6 (one is claiming double silver to the north, the other one is blocking Monty and claiming gems, pigs, fish and clam).

Our troop strength is comparable, but I've got a level 4 unit while he does not.

He's one tech ahead of me (Mathematics).

I can run 10% research at least without a deficit (mainly due to the silver at the moment), and with some short term improvement in sight due to the gems (as soon as I get Iron Working).

From a REXing perspective I'm probably slightly ahead, but Vale has laid some solid foundations with the GW and the Mids due in one turn. Personally I'd still recommend Vale's save over mine, but since there has been some positive feedback regarding mine I'm offering you the save here so you can at least compare.

We're both in strong positions, but I might still lose out on the Pyramids (you never know) and then it will be a lot easier to recover and expand further when going from Vale's save. Since he's got the Great Wall it's quite easy to quickly claim one or two more good city spots and then slowly consolidate the empire.

siggboy · Jun 2, 2008

vale said:
If Moscow had had 2 archers in it when I got there, I would have taken it easily as well. Since it didn't I don't see what the point is in comparing my decision to bypass it and raze Novgorod first to yours of taking it immediately.

I compared our two campaigns because the END RESULT was very similar (same turn, same city locations, roughly the same troop sizes) while our approaches were quite different.

I'm not saying that your approach was worse or that you made the wrong decisions. In fact I stormed into that war more or less mindlessly (built 8 Phalanxes quickly and then took the shortest distance route possible, taking cities along the way). The rest of your game clearly shows that you made a much better overall effort than I did.

I would not have gone for Moscow either if it had had 5 defenders in it at any point. Russia just happened to be weak overall, and I attribute it to the fact that I took MINIMAL time between declaring war and hitting his cities. I was also lucky that he actually did not have any copper.

Bleys · Jun 2, 2008

I am beginning to wonder if taking Monty first would have been a better move. Once you box Peter in, he is never going to be able to become very strong. However, Monty has a LOT of land to REX into, and will be much more difficult to dislodge.

I may just play a shadow of my own save and try to do just that, leave Peter be, hope he builds the Mids for us, and go after Monty ASAP. Lanx's own Jags, especially if he uses them for city defense. I doubt Monty can launch much of a counter-attack because of the choke-point that many of the saves have a firm grip on. Let Peter settle that Tundra and improve it, we can take him later, he wont get to his UU before we have the techs and military to turn our attention toward him.

Monty is a sleeping giant of potential though. He is nutty enough to attack even if we share his religion (I took it in my game, because I was focused on Peter and didnt want surprises from that direction). We really really have to take care of him before he can settle all that land. He is a monster when he gets 10 cities.

I think we are all in agreement on taking Vales save, so I will plan to try the GLH-Monty First plan in my own shadow, which I will post separately after I play my regular rounds.

vale · Jun 2, 2008

siggboy said:
I attribute it to the fact that I took MINIMAL time between declaring war and hitting his cities. I was also lucky that he actually did not have any copper.

Its not like I dallied after declaring. I took St. Petersburg the turn I declared and advanced on Moscow immediately, leaving only the damaged Phalanx behind. I still had enough Phalanxes with me to easily crack a 2 archer Moscow. That just wasn't in the cards.

I did screw up one thing with that now that I think about it. I had built the road to St. Petersburg and if I had had my phalanxes right up against the border instead of 1 off, the ones that didn't attack that turn could have 2 moved further into russian territory. Still it is doubtful that would produce 2-3 less defenders in Moscow as it only cost a turn.

Diamondeye · Jun 2, 2008

Bleys said:
I am beginning to wonder if taking Monty first would have been a better move. Once you box Peter in, he is never going to be able to become very strong. However, Monty has a LOT of land to REX into, and will be much more difficult to dislodge.

Hrm. Hrm-hrm. Hrm-hrm-hrm. Have you even looked at my save? I am in a rather good position to take out Monty out early, having conquered the Gems area from him and have 5 Lanx in his area?

I think we are all in agreement on taking Vales save, so I will plan to try the GLH-Monty First plan in my own shadow, which I will post separately after I play my regular rounds.

Well. I agree Vales save is nice, and having taken Peter out by now is huge. I also realize my save has not so much focus on wonders as one might want (but after all, we wonderwhored last game). I frankly like my game enough to vote for it, despite the late date and the fact that Russia is still here. My GP are not really kicking (read: existing), but I believe my land is better than Vales atm, as is my forces. I am not sure of this though. I would like someone to work out some maths here (OTAKU? :lol:

).

Bleys · Jun 2, 2008

I did read your game Diamond, it kind of made me think of it (and return to my own game with that idea in mind, so I admit most of my thought process is coming from the perspective of my own save). I didnt download the save itself, I probably should.

vale · Jun 3, 2008

Diamondeye said:
I believe my land is better than Vales atm

Definitely true. Once I had the scouting done for the rush I underscouted the rest of my round. I saw jungle to my south and tundra to my north and felt pretty happy sticking in the forest area. But definitely that jungle terrain has some nice sites.

as is my forces

Our militaries are actually pretty similar:
I have
10 phalanxes (5 level 3, 5 level 2)
3 chariots (3 level 2)
2 warriors (2 level 1)
5 workers

You have
9 phalanxes (2 level 3, 7 level 2)
2 archers (2 level 1)
2 warriors (1 level 2, 1 level 1)
3 workers

I don't think that there is much to separate those although I think we are both short on workers. Late in my round I had to slow the troop buildup because the upkeep was getting too painful without a war to kill them off.

I think a war against Monty will be much faster and less painful with a large force of catapults though which is the big key I would think.

siggboy · Jun 3, 2008

Let's make a somewhat daring proposition:

How about forking the SG into two branches: one will be going for Monty first, and the other continuing along the line where Peter has been eliminated.

There seem to be enough players around that are interested in pursuing either strategy, and to me it would be highly educating so see both approaches compared as we go along.

We might even decide to merge the two branches at some point (by deciding for the better one via a vote as we see fit, for example after either side has secured the continent).

Diamondeye · Jun 3, 2008

@Siggboy: That decision is up to OTAKUjbski. I find the idea rather nice, although I think the thread would be rather messed up and we would have to find out if one could play in both branches in the same round etc. I frankly prefer that we do this, mainly because I like my own save :blush:

, and it seems as i I am the only one - Vale's seems the most popular otherwise.

Bleys · Jun 3, 2008

siggboy said:
Let's make a somewhat daring proposition:

How about forking the SG into two branches: one will be going for Monty first, and the other continuing along the line where Peter has been eliminated.

We actually discussed this possibility, its definitely one of those "flavor" things that make this format kinda cool.

I was already planning to shadow my own save with the idea of going after Monty, not Peter at all, and seeing if I could leverage the GLH as well without all the little islands to settle like MC1. I wasnt going to do it "officially", I was just going to play it after I played the regular round this Friday, and post it in its own post and spoiler clearly labeled "Shadow".

I think if some wanted to do a more "official" fork, we should break it off into a new thread, or this one would get pretty confusing (it would be like the PYL, with every post having a different looking map, LOL) How many saves are there to consider that DID NOT DoW on Peter? Diamond and mine for sure, cant recall if there were others. I am not sure who would break off, we could always start discussing it though, since the "Official Best Ball" wont be selected until Friday. Heck, the "break away" could even create their own schedule if the "one round a week" of our game is too slow.

Stuff like this really keeps the game fresh for me. I am totally hooked on Madscientists Genghis Khan RPC right now, and I havent even played my PYL choice (I kinda like to wait, and hopefully "forget" a lot of the map details). I have the NC-Sitting Bull just about in the bag, too, gotta wrap that up, and I just met the other AIs in the Charlemenge LHC. I actually enjoy jumping around from game to game, I think it hones my attention to detail, I am sure folks can relate to that "rut" feeling you can get in when you play the same game, looking at the same cities, same AI faces, etc etc.

Of course, I am not NEARLY as bad a procrastinator as Rolo, LOL, I might be close, but I am too lazy to look up the actual stats. Me and Rolo are going to start a new club, too, called the "Civ IV Procrastinator Half-Gamer Club", when we get around to it, that is, next week, month . . . LOL.

TheMeInTeam · Jun 3, 2008

I burn through games like nothing. If you want a split off of this, or even can use me in both forks, I'm game

.

Technically, I've not attacked Peter in my save yet. I'm about 4-6 turns from doing so though, and obviously my settling route is biased toward doing so. I see no reason we can't eviscerate both factions. Monty techs so poorly that unless he fields enough horse archers we can just mow both of them down.

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