Monarchists' Cookbook I

Wow, some good games already. I like Vales game a lot, shame about the Hurricane event, that bugger ALWAYS gets your Forge, too, its like the hurricanes KNOW you have one and come for you.

I do like the position futurehermit is in, CS this early is powerful, and 6 cities already is awesome. Personally, my plan is to get a settler over to that other island, along with half a dozen axes, take the barb city, and found a city myself. Establishing there may help avoid a too-early war with Sal. He already has a pile of troops, and in my game has a city on the "Big island". So next settler was going there with an Axe for garrison, then more axes landing as I can, keeping Sal nicey-nice so I can actually get to it. If we lose Open Borders with him, we are in trouble (as Winston warned earlier when I mentioned the idea of settling islands past Sal). Having him on a small island himself is actually going to make it easier to take him down, I think. Triremes for taking out any attempts to shuttle more troops in, and kill all his galleys, and land 10 Axes and 4 or 5 Cats on Mecca. I could start dropping them off, but I am not sure, he is likely to settle a 3rd city on his starting island, covering it with culture, then DoWing would kick us off, so I am waiting. If we get settlers over with futures save ASAP it would be very very strong. I delayed the 3rd Marble Island city and the Southern Island city a bit when I saw the big island.

My save is reasonable though, I could play it from there easy. Math is nice, I have 3 GM wonders in the Capitol, and nice trade routes there already. I could get a GE, bulb Machinery, tech CS and be at Maces in no time. Maces and Cats are what are ultimately going to take Sal down, I think, it will take SO many Axes, even with Cats. Hilled PRO Archers are a PITA.

I cant wait to see how some others do. Are you not playing Nares? You have read reports, so I assume you are not offering your own shadow game this session. Vale got an amazing amount built in Berlin, absolutely amazing. I am not pushing for the Ultra Fast GLibrary, like he did though, I wanted the military techs and Maths first. I have no worries in the slightest about being beat to the GL by any AI, they just dont tech that line. I would like to get Aes and Lit done, and the GL mostly built, before I worry about Alphabet. I wont trade Aes until the GL is nearly done, personally.

Good, strong games, guys. Nice discussion too. Already we see 4 very very different games, the next vote would be hard now, and rolo and OTAK and Diamond havent even played!
 
I think we need to hit Sal before longbows. If we can hit maces before then, great, if not cats + axes ftw. With enough cats all the axes do is mop-up. Mecca isn't on a hill, which is good for us. If Sal gets longbows before we hit with maces, we lose our advantage. So, it just depends.

Note: From my 10AD save all we need is machinery and we are able to produce maces. I would like to get the GL too, but I think I would rather wipe out Sal asap than get the GL if I had to choose and not get both (which would be ideal).

I think that since none of the AIs we've met has monarchy yet that if we grab machinery we could take them all out Sal-->Joao-->Toku before any of them get longbows.

We just need galleys, cats (in my save I'm 2 turns from construction), then maces. With 6 cities it wouldn't take too long to produce the necessary units.

I would vote against settling past Saladin. That just leaves us too strung out imo and takes away our focus, which needs to be hitting Saladin asap imo.

GLH will seriously help us fund the war effort and since CoL is in the bag we can also whip courthouses meaning we can basically expand via warfare as fast as we have troops to do so. So, basically, we just need troops asap imho.
 
Okay, played my round. As mentioned above, I considered the idea of shadowing with my first save to see how a military strategy measured up (I had a barracks up and was pretty well leveraged for battle), but ultimately decided going after a protective leader, with a holy city, across water was just too painful. As others concluded as well, there will be a better time, perhaps after catapults. So I picked up the BB save and decided to try my hand at the wonder strategy.

Spoiler :
I haven't read any of the other reports, so I don't know if everyone had the same thing happen the next turn after starting the round, but I wouldn't be surprised:

Civ4ScreenShot0123.jpg


I hadn't really planned on converting just yet, but I'd take a relations hit if I said no, so what the heck.

With the +1 happy, I consider putting something in the queue to let the city grow, but I decide to just finish the settler.

Turn 88: I finish the settler and start on the Oracle. Being industrious, I really don't care about hooking up the marble, the amount of hammers saved is pretty small and the marble city is so useless.

Turn 90: Pottery done, start agriculture. Hamburg founded 3 south of Berlin. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really think the overlap works to my advantage. Berlin won't be able to use 3 clams very often if at all, and there's a mine that can be shared as appropriate. As for what happens at size 21, who cares. Hamburg starts on a monument so I can work the second flood plain and the other hill. My bored worker has already roaded both hills; his first order of business, since he can't build the mine yet, is to cottage the floodplains.

Turn 91: Revolt to slavery, I'm going to try to bang out a thing or two while I work on the Oracle.

Turn 93: I start a worker in Berlin.

Turn 94: I whip the worker for 2 pop; 25% bonus hammers on the worker and 50% bonus on the overflow. Talk about synergy! The worker heads north of Berlin to chop.

Turn 97: Agriculture researched, start on Masonry. I'm still not used to playing epic, which makes the research times all look pretty daunting to me! Once Hamburg really starts generating commerce I expect my research to get a lot better.

Turn 100: Hamburg grows to size 2 and I whip the rest of the Monument. Also, I finish chopping the forest north of Berlin and finish the Oracle, much to my surprise since I had forgotten the chop would be enough to complete it with the industrious bonus! I know it's tradition to show a screenshot of the Wonder at this point, but realistically, we're all playing the same save and you know what the Oracle looks like. I take MC, of course. Both cities start on a granary, the better to whip you with, my dear. My worker starts mining the hill where he just chopped.

Turn 104: Masonry researched. I think about Writing to open borders with Sal and see what he's got, but I decide a bigger priority is to get Monarchy for HR. Maybe some of you are building the Pyramids, but not me, I think. Meanwhile, my worker is mining the second hill near Hamburg.

One thing about sharing so many key tiles between your first two cities is that you really have to pay attention to which city is working what! I haven't included a whole lot of details about my tile-swapping, because I hardly think I put on a clinic. But you definitely need to stay alert for opportunities to switch tiles without losing a turn on your build or your city growth, thus freeing up a tile that may save turns for the other city.

Turn 107: Berlin finishes Granary, starts Workboat for the 3rd clam tile. Hamburg has been working the clam some and the cottage some; there will be more use for the clams once a lighthouse is up.

Turn 112: Workboat finished, Berlin starts a yummy Forge.

Turn 115: I whip the Forge in Berlin. Hamburg finishes the Granary and starts a Forge of its own. I figure the lighthouse can wait since I'm enjoying working the cottage anyway.

Turn 116: Berlin starts the GLH.

Turn 121: My worker finishes mining that second hill by Hamburg and starts cottaging the second flood plain. No idea how often I'll be able to work these cottages as I get my infrastructure up, but it can't hurt to have it there. Meanwhile, my Berlin worker is roading up to the copper. A forest grows 3E of Berlin; always nice to have more forests!

Turn 122: Judaism founded somewhere. I sure wish I had OR for the production bonus, but I just don't have the time to research those techs on top of the religious techs I already have. Probably I'll have to trade for them after Alphabet.

Turn 123: I chop the tile NE of Berlin, since I want to put a farm there to help out my copper city which won't have any food otherwise.

Turn 125: I get this annoying event:

Civ4ScreenShot0133.jpg


Sure hope this doesn't bollox up the GLH for me. I choose to pay 10 gold and lose 1 pop, since Berlin still has whip unhappiness and I don't need any more.

Hamburg's growth is limited due to lack of a garrison; unfortunately, my galley seems to have wandered off to explore south of Sal. Since it's max happy is 3, I let it grow to 4 and then whip the Forge, starting a Lighthouse. While it may seem cruel to punish the slaves of Hamburg for the actions of their rebel colleagues in Berlin, every great civilization has shameful moments it doesn't like to talk about and I might as well create some.

Turn 130: Oh happy day!

Civ4ScreenShot0135.jpg


Before I start the Colossus, I need to hook up copper, which means I need a settler. I'm a few turns away from growing Berlin to size 6, so I pump out a couple warriors first.

Turn 131: Monarch researched, start Writing.

Turn 134: Berlin finishes the 2nd warrior and I start a settler.

Turn 135: I whip the warrior for 2 pop; between the expansive bonus and the forge, I'm sure getting a lot of hammers out of those slaves.

Turn 136: Since copper will be hooked up soon, I start the Colossus in Berlin. Hamburg finishes its Lighthouse and starts a Warrior for the garrison, since my extra warriors in Berlin have no way to get there thanks to the wandering galley.

Turn 137: Munich founded, it starts a monument.

Civ4ScreenShot0136.jpg


Turn 139: Another slave revolt in Berlin! Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never had this event twice in one game before. I again choose to pay 10 gold and lose 1 pop. Hamburg finishes its Warrior, I start another one in order to take advantage of HR.

Turn 141: Writing finished, start Math since I know I'll want Construction. It occurs to me that since I'm about to hook up copper, that warrior I'm building in Hamburg is going to turn into an axeman. Since I don't want an unpromoted axeman, I switch production to a Barracks.

Turn 142: Copper gets hooked up and production of the Colossus speeds up. I realize there's not much point in that monument I'm building in Munich, and start a Granary.

Turn 145: I whip the barracks in Hamburg and start a Library.

Turn 148: Munich grows to size 2, with the help of that farm I gave it, and it can finally start working the copper tile for some real production. Looks like I won't be doing much whipping in Munich due to the anemic growth rate. Meanwhile, I'm starting to find some happiness resources around Sal's territory, and I start to feel frisky.

Civ4ScreenShot0138.jpg


Turn 149: My great prophet from the Oracle finally shows up in Berlin, only thing is... it's actually a Great Merchant from the GLH! Wasn't expecting that. Choices, choices.

Settling a Great Merchant is always an option, especially in the early game, but Berlin and Hamburg really don't need the extra food. Munich could use the food, but that city has such limited potential I really don't see the point. I don't much need an early-game trade mission... hmm, what can I bulb with this?

Seriously, CoL? Hard to resist that, especially with the added bonus of founding Conf. Bulb it is! Conf founded in Hamburg; I mentally lay the foundation of Wall Street there. I stay in Hinduism, of course, for relations with Sal. Annoyingly, Hinduism still hasn't spread to anyplace outside Berlin.

Turn 150: My exploring galley finds an unopened goody hut; unfortunately, I had dropped off my scout on Sal's island and can't open it. I also find something else of interest:

Civ4ScreenShot0141.jpg


Hmm, red borders? What is that, Russia?

Turn 151: My Berlin worker is continuing to mine the hills north of Munich, for lack of anything better to do, although those will probably become windmills as soon as possible. Meanwhile, my galley encounters a workboat from Portugal, and I get the following status report for whatever it's worth:

Civ4ScreenShot0142.jpg


Turn 153: Berlin finishes the Colossus and starts a galley so my two islands can resume contact. Meanwhile, my galley meets the mystery red civ and finds out it's Toku.

Turn 154: Math researched, start Archery for cheaper HR units.

Turn 155: Munich finishes Granary. Still no real need for that monument I started, so I begin a lighthouse.

Turn 157: Archery researched, I start IW to find iron and also because I'm thinking about all those yummy resources in the jungle by Sal for down the road.

Turn 158: Hamburg finishes Library, starts an archer for HR/garrison.

Turn 159: Berlin finishes the galley and starts an archer so Munich can have a garrison.

Turn 160: Oops, Berlin is unhappy because I forgot to actually revolt into HR. I decide to whip the archer I'm currently working on there, and then revolt. The overflow goes into another archer.

Turn 163: I think about building a barracks in Berlin, but decide a library is more important. What I really want is another settler, but I'm waiting for it to grow to size 7 first.

Turn 164: Hamburg finishes an archer (City Garrison I, my first promoted unit) and starts another one.

Turn 165: What to do with that Confucian missionary I got for founding the religion? Good question. It doesn't help a lot to spread it within my borders; I'll get culture but no happiness because it's not my state religion. Even though I know it will be very hard to convert Sal out of the religion he founded, I decide to spread it in Damascus; in the best case scenario, maybe Toku will pick it up somehow and convert, although I'm not clear on exactly how religions spread.

Turn 166: IW researched, start Alphabet so I can trade and backfill. Berlin grows to size 7 and starts a settler, which I whip next turn. Iron on the southern island, 2 north of the marble, how nice! Sal has had iron for ages.

Turn 170: Munich finishes a lighthouse and I decide to finally let it finish the monument it started building over 500 years ago. That's what I get for giving out a no-bid contract.

Turn 171: I found Cologne as iron/marble city on the eastern shore. I was tempted to found it on the plains hill in the middle of the island, where it not only gets an extra hammer but also access to some food, but I didn't want to make a non-coastal city right now. I may be able to drop a city on that spot later.

Turn 172: I finish an archer in Hamburg and start on an Aqueduct. I can see HG being a viable wonder at some point...

Turn 173: Library finished in Berlin, start on Barracks. Kinda funny how in my first save, I built this barracks way back during the first turnset, and now it's not even done by the end of the second turnset!

Here's a picture of my lands in 10 AD:

Civ4ScreenShot0147.jpg


A wider view, showing Saladin and the resources:

Civ4ScreenShot0148.jpg


The northern area, including Damascus and Tokyo:

Civ4ScreenShot0149.jpg


I'm very happy with this round. Some thoughts for how I'd proceed on the next turnset, keeping in mind that I still haven't read anyone else's report:

Spoiler :
I really want my next city to grab a happiness resource and establish a foothold on the other continent. The choices seem to be the dye/gems city between Tokyo and Damascus, and the gems/rice river city to the east of Damascus. My decision might get made for me depending on where the AI expands next. Gems would be a great get because of the Forges.

As much fun as it would be to go to war with Sal, I have a +9 relations standing with him and I'm really not thrilled with his territory at all. I think my first war may be with someone else.

Alphabet is done in 3 turns; no one else seems to have it yet, and I'm eager to backfill some techs and get into OR for religion spreading. It's so annoying that I haven't gotten Hinduism in any other cities naturally.

With 2 religions already and a relatively isolated position, I'm already starting to think in terms of a cultural win, something I haven't managed to pull off yet. Of course, there could be another civ 5 spaces to my west, you never know!
 

Attachments

Are you not playing Nares? You have read reports, so I assume you are not offering your own shadow game this session.
I think I might wait until enough of your roster players have posted before I offer a report.

One thing I will note from my own shadow is that while I'm a bit behind in score (closer to yours), I'm closer to futurehermit in commerce output.

I'm also the only one to befriend our aggressive buddy. He was actually quite easy to handle. If anything, I'm finding the fourth AI to be the most annoying. Frequent demands are pissing me off, even if the -ve modifier expires fairly quickly.

Another note I'll offer is that settling two cities on a non-capital landmass offers only a 0.29gpt colonial expense for every city on that landmass, but settling a third city bumps that up to 1.16 per city. As a result, I chose not to pursue the marble quite as vigorously. My chances at the Oracle were slim, and this factored into my decision.
 
This was a very interesting round for me. It started off bumpy (both IRL and in-game) but smoothed out by the end. IRL, my computer restarted a few times from power flickering (word to the wise: If your battery backup starts beeping at you, don't just turn off the alarm ... fix it!); and in-game ... well ... read on ...

Turn 80/750 (2000 BC) [03-May-2008 13:13:06]
Research begun: Masonry (8 Turns)

Like I think all the Peacemongering Wonderwhores did, I switched from Pottery to Masonry so I could snag the Great Lighthouse.


IBT:
State Religion Change: Monarchist Cookbook Game 1(Germany) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Monarchist Cookbook Game 1(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

MC1_1975BC_Convert.jpg


Turn 82/750 (1950 BC) [03-May-2008 13:15:51]
A Mine was destroyed near Berlin
The whip was applied in Berlin

MC1_1950BC_LostMine.jpg


Saladin urges me to convert to Hinduism before the heavens rain displeasure upon me.

Fearing the wrath of his gods, I decided converting would be prudent.

Well, apparently the gods were upset I didn't think of it on my own and destroyed a mine. I had intended to whip the Settler into a Wonder, but with 15 Turns of whip anger freshly applied from a random event, I had to slow build the Settler. With one less mine, it felt like an eternity.

I figured "great, I've played 2 turns and am probably already losing to the rest of the team. I might as well just stop now."

I'm glad I didn't, because the RNG started playing nice later in the round!


Turn 83/750 (1925 BC) [03-May-2008 13:16:29]
A Mine was built near Berlin

Turn 88/750 (1800 BC) [03-May-2008 13:17:04]
Tech learned: Masonry
Berlin finishes: Settler

Turn 89/750 (1775 BC) [03-May-2008 13:17:09]
Berlin begins: Worker (7 turns)
Research begun: Writing (13 Turns)

Since I'm still dealing with whip anger, I figured I should pump out a Worker to station on Marble Isle.

I start Writing, because I'm bulbing Mathematics with the Oracle. I have a variety of upcoming chops Maths will help with, but Currency is my real goal.

MC is expensive and hard to pass up. But, Berlin is the only city that can make use of a Forge and doesn't really need it that bad. The Colossus will only do a modicum of good, so I'm in no rush to build it. Besides, if I get a Great Merchant from GLH, I'll just bulb MC after Currency.


Turn 91/750 (1725 BC) [03-May-2008 13:20:08]
A Mine was built near Berlin

Turn 92/750 (1700 BC) [03-May-2008 13:21:13]
Hamburg founded
Hamburg begins: Monument (23 turns)

What can I say? I want Marble. All I intend to do with Hamburg is mine the two Green hills and Cottage the Grasslands.


IBT:
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 94/750 (1650 BC) [03-May-2008 13:22:11]
Berlin finishes: Worker

Turn 95/750 (1625 BC) [03-May-2008 13:22:22]
Berlin begins: The Oracle (15 turns)

Turn 96/750 (1600 BC) [03-May-2008 13:22:59]
Berlin grows: 6

Turn 97/750 (1575 BC) [03-May-2008 13:23:26]
Whip anger has decreased in Berlin

Turn 100/750 (1500 BC) [03-May-2008 13:24:02]
Tech learned: Writing

Turn 101/750 (1475 BC) [03-May-2008 13:24:16]
A Mine was built near Hamburg
Research begun: Pottery (8 Turns)

Turn 103/750 (1425 BC) [03-May-2008 13:25:27]
Berlin finishes: The Oracle

Turn 104/750 (1400 BC) [03-May-2008 13:25:36]
Tech learned: Mathematics
Berlin begins: Galley (7 turns)

As planned, I grab Maths from the Oracle and start work on a Galley. (Somehow, I missed taking this screenshot.)

Also, my 1st Galley is off exploring the world, and I need to prep some Wonderful overflow, so I start another Galley.


Turn 105/750 (1375 BC) [03-May-2008 13:27:48]
Tech learned: Aesthetics
Tribal village results: technology

MC1_1375BC_Aesthetics.jpg


Holy Crap! Maybe I should build the Parthenon.!?


Turn 106/750 (1350 BC) [03-May-2008 13:28:34]
A Mine was built near Berlin
Berlin begins: The Great Lighthouse (20 turns)
Hamburg finishes: Monument

I shuffle in the GLH for one turn to absorb chopping hammers.

I then switch to Slavery.


IBT:
Civics Change: Monarchist Cookbook Game 1(Germany) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 108/750 (1300 BC) [03-May-2008 13:30:22]
Contact made: Portuguese Empire
The whip was applied in Berlin
Tech learned: Pottery
Berlin grows: 5
Berlin finishes: Galley

MC1_1300BC_Joo.jpg


Look who I met! The founder of Buddhism and builder of Stonehenge!


Turn 109/750 (1275 BC) [03-May-2008 13:32:13]
Research begun: Agriculture (7 Turns)
Berlin begins: Granary (5 turns)
Berlin finishes: Granary

MC1_1275BC_Granary.jpg


I had originally intended to overflow the Galley in the GLH, but it worked out that I could overflow it into a Granary. This made me happy, because it's always my advice the first build whipped should always be a Granary.

... and thus it is worth seeing a screenshot, IMO.


Turn 110/750 (1250 BC) [03-May-2008 13:34:07]
Berlin begins: The Great Lighthouse (15 turns)

IBT:
Judaism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 111/750 (1225 BC) [03-May-2008 13:34:54]
Tribal village results: map

IBT:
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Saladin founded Monotheism and converted to OR.

Yay. Our neighbour founded a religion in a crappy city. Whoopee!


Turn 112/750 (1200 BC) [03-May-2008 13:38:25]
Hamburg grows: 2

IBT:
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Joao II(Portugal) towards Monarchist Cookbook Game 1(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 113/750 (1175 BC) [03-May-2008 13:39:09]
Contact made: Japanese Empire
Tribal village results: experience

MC1_1175BC_Toku.jpg


Worst AI ever. I guess this game is more like 1 v 5 now, eh?


IBT:
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 114/750 (1150 BC) [03-May-2008 13:39:37]
Scout promoted: Woodsman I
Scout promoted: Woodsman II
A Cottage was built near Hamburg

Turn 115/750 (1125 BC) [03-May-2008 13:40:02]
Tech learned: Agriculture
Berlin grows: 6

This reminds me ... somewhere in the midst of it all, a chop went into the GLH from the riverside Grassland Forest. Since I didn't have Agriculture yet, I cleared it and started on a road towards the Copper.

That Farm is going to feed the 3 Green hills for another city on the mainland.


IBT:
While defending just off shore, Galley 1 of Berlin (Galley) defeats (0.48/2): Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 67.8%)

Turn 116/750 (1100 BC) [03-May-2008 13:40:50]
Research begun: Polytheism (8 Turns)
Berlin begins: Hindu Temple (12 turns)

MC1_1025BC_Temple2.jpg


This is always a good trick.

The GLH has ~67 hammers left on its build. 45 * 1.5 = 67.5, so a normal 1pop whip can finish it. Taking note of this, instead of slow building the GLH over the next 4 turns, I'm going to pump a couple turns of production into a Temple and whip it for 3pop to generate the overflow necessary to finish the GLH -- netting me a higher happy cap and the GLH for just 1 extra turn!


Turn 117/750 (1075 BC) [03-May-2008 13:42:40]
Hamburg finishes: Warrior

Turn 118/750 (1050 BC) [03-May-2008 13:43:09]
Hamburg begins: Granary (23 turns)

Turn 119/750 (1025 BC) [03-May-2008 13:43:36]
The whip was applied in Berlin
Berlin grows: 4
Berlin finishes: Hindu Temple

Turn 120/750 (1000 BC) [03-May-2008 13:45:09]
A Cottage was built near Hamburg
Berlin finishes: The Great Lighthouse

MC1_1000BC_GLH.jpg


Bada bing ... bada boom.


Turn 121/750 (975 BC) [03-May-2008 13:46:12]
Berlin begins: Barracks (11 turns)

MC1_975BC_Borders.jpg


Saladin knows something we don't. Who's that look like to you? Mali? Mongolia?


Turn 122/750 (950 BC) [03-May-2008 14:31:39]
Hamburg's borders expand

Turn 123/750 (925 BC) [03-May-2008 14:32:21]
A Farm was built near Berlin
Whip anger has decreased in Berlin
Tech learned: Polytheism
Berlin grows: 5

Turn 124/750 (900 BC) [03-May-2008 14:40:27]
Berlin begins: The Temple of Artemis (31 turns)
Research begun: Literature (13 Turns)

In hindsight, this wasn't the best move. It was a decision between Literature vs Currency. Currency would have an immediate 'free' benefit, while Literature would require me to do some work for its benefit (which I still haven't begun).

I should've stayed on course to Currency and only come back for Literature when I was ready to start building the Great Library!


Turn 126/750 (850 BC) [03-May-2008 14:42:23]
Hamburg begins: The Parthenon (120 turns)
Berlin grows: 6

Turn 127/750 (825 BC) [03-May-2008 14:42:56]
Hamburg begins: Granary (11 turns)

I spent one turn on The Parthenon to absorb a chop then switched back to the Granary. As soon as I reach pop3, I'm going to 1pop whip the Granary and let all the overflow poor into The Parthenon -- at which point I'll stagnate the city and work the 2 green hill mines.


IBT:
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 128/750 (800 BC) [03-May-2008 14:43:49]
A Hamlet was built near Hamburg

Turn 131/750 (725 BC) [03-May-2008 14:47:59]
Berlin grows: 7
Hamburg grows: 3

Turn 132/750 (700 BC) [03-May-2008 14:48:55]
A Mine was built near Hamburg

IBT:
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 134/750 (650 BC) [03-May-2008 14:49:50]
The whip was applied in Hamburg
Hamburg finishes: Granary

MC1_650BC_Whipping.jpg

MC1_625BC_Whipping2.jpg


Yay overflow! And here you thought 1pop whips were bad.


IBT:
Attitude Change: Joao II(Portugal) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 136/750 (600 BC) [03-May-2008 14:51:23]
Tech learned: Literature

Turn 137/750 (575 BC) [03-May-2008 14:51:51]
Tribal village results: scout
Research begun: Currency (27 Turns)

A scout ... and here I was hoping for another tech, lol.


Turn 138/750 (550 BC) [03-May-2008 14:53:01]
Whip anger has decreased in Berlin
Berlin's borders expand

It's worth noting up to this point, the Worker on the mainland was building roads on the 3 green hills while waiting for Berlin's borders to pop. Now he can start mining.


Turn 140/750 (500 BC) [03-May-2008 14:55:11]
Berlin begins: Settler (9 turns)

I must be prepping a whip into the ToA.


Turn 143/750 (455 BC) [03-May-2008 14:57:36]
The whip was applied in Berlin
Berlin grows: 5
Berlin finishes: Settler

Yep. Sure was. I used the same trick as before with the Temple. Instead of slow building one Wonder, I made a big 3pop whip to overflow into the ToA.


Turn 144/750 (440 BC) [03-May-2008 14:58:37]
A Mine was built
Berlin finishes: The Temple of Artemis

MC1_440BC_ToA.jpg


And so it is done ... I think I should turn on Movies, huh?


Turn 146/750 (410 BC) [03-May-2008 15:02:00]
Tech learned: Monarchy
Tribal village results: technology
Contact made: Ottoman Empire
Berlin grows: 6
John Maynard Keynes (Great Merchant) born in Berlin

MC1_410BC_Suleiman.jpg

MC1_410BC_Monarchy.jpg


Holy effing crap! First Aesthetics and now Monarchy? I should save a hut for Astronomy, lol.

The gods must be making it up to me for blowing up my mine at the beginning of the round!


Turn 147/750 (395 BC) [03-May-2008 15:03:05]
Research begun: Currency (14 Turns)
Reminder: On Turn 161, Bulb MC after Currency!!!
Berlin finishes: Barracks

MC1_395BC_Reminder.jpg


Reminders are your friend. They work infinitely better than reloading from autosaves. (and thus worthy of a screenshot)


Turn 148/750 (380 BC) [03-May-2008 15:06:03]
Berlin begins: Settler (9 turns)

Turn 149/750 (365 BC) [03-May-2008 15:07:25]
Whip anger has decreased in Hamburg

IBT:
While defending in the wild, Scout loses to: Barbarian Warrior (1.16/2) (Prob Victory: 0.9%)

That was my Woodsman II Scout, too.


Turn 150/750 (350 BC) [03-May-2008 15:08:10]
A Mine was built

Turn 153/750 (305 BC) [03-May-2008 15:10:09]
Hamburg finishes: The Parthenon

MC1_290BC_Parthenon.jpg


Aww ... yeah. Goodie huts r corrupt.


Turn 154/750 (290 BC) [03-May-2008 15:10:32]
Hamburg begins: Lighthouse (45 turns)
Contact made: French Empire
A Hamlet was built near Hamburg

MC1_290BC_LouisXIV.jpg


Hey look .. an Industrious AI. As it turns out, Louis built the Great Wall.


Turn 156/750 (260 BC) [03-May-2008 15:13:27]
Berlin finishes: Settler

Turn 157/750 (245 BC) [03-May-2008 15:13:49]
Berlin begins: Galley (7 turns)

IBT:
While defending in the wild near Magyar, Scout loses to: Barbarian Warrior (0.90/2) (Prob Victory: 41.2%)

Damn ... they're starting to drop faster than I'd like for them to.


Turn 158/750 (230 BC) [03-May-2008 15:14:36]
Munich founded
Munich begins: Granary (45 turns)
Munich begins: Monument (8 turns)
Munich begins: Library (23 turns)
Whip anger has decreased in Berlin

MC1_230BC_Munich.jpg


I know it may seem like an awkward location, but I really don't like the idea of settling on any of our Grasslands. Two mines are within our cultural borders, and we'll eventually get the 3rd back, so I like where I'm at. I don't intend to build a 3rd city on Marble Isle, so I'm not worried about overlapping too much, you know.


Turn 159/750 (215 BC) [03-May-2008 15:16:49]
Cologne founded
Cologne begins: Monument (45 turns)
Tech learned: Currency
Berlin grows: 7

MC1_215BC_Cologne.jpg


How 'bout this city, lol! I'm going to use this city as an expansion base into the rest of the world.

It has good food and production and a central location to an uncontested frontier.


Turn 160/750 (200 BC) [03-May-2008 15:18:01]
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (3 Turns)

Turn 161/750 (185 BC) [03-May-2008 15:18:42]
Reminder: Bulb MC after Currency!!!
Tech learned: Metal Casting

MC1_185BC_MC.jpg


Oops. The reminder came 1 turn too late, so I bulbed MC one turn later than I could have otherwise, but no matter.

Had I instead researched Literature after Currency, this would've happened 11 or 12 turns ago, which could've meant already having a Forge in Berlin. Oh well ... that's what happens when you get the Wonderlust.


IBT:
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 162/750 (170 BC) [03-May-2008 15:20:09]
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Hamburg's borders expand

Well, we won't be founding Confucianism. But who cares, huh? That's one more religion for the rest of the world to fight over, and it makes it just a bit cheaper for me to tech now.


Turn 163/750 (155 BC) [03-May-2008 15:20:29]
Research begun: Code of Laws (10 Turns)
Berlin finishes: Galley

Turn 164/750 (140 BC) [03-May-2008 15:22:00]
Berlin begins: Settler (9 turns)
Cologne finishes: Monument

Turn 165/750 (125 BC) [03-May-2008 15:22:46]
Cologne begins: Axeman (52 turns)
Munich finishes: Granary

Turn 169/750 (65 BC) [03-May-2008 15:31:14]
Berlin begins: Forge (8 turns)
The whip was applied in Berlin
Berlin grows: 6
Berlin finishes: Settler
Cologne grows: 2

Whipping so much usually isn't good when Grassland hill mines are available, but since the overflow is worth more in the Forge for an Industrious leader, I'm doing alright.


Turn 170/750 (50 BC) [03-May-2008 15:31:48]
A Pasture was built near Cologne
Hamburg grows: 3

Turn 171/750 (35 BC) [03-May-2008 15:32:23]
Tsongkhapa (Great Prophet) born in Berlin

And so this is where I stopped. Settling the GP in Berlin seems to be an obvious choice to me, but since I'm this close to the end of the Round, there's no sense in not leaving the option open.

I also have a Settler west of Hamburg ready to found our 5th city. They can either found along the river or move 1W to a location I hate but saw on previous dotmaps. If settled in place, it will make a considerably greater city. With Monarchy and the ability to adopt HR, there's no reason now to split Marble Isle, IMO ... but I leave that option open.

My next order of business is to build a Library and Great Library in Berlin. Sure, it will create a smörgåsbord of gpp in Berlin, but they're all good GP, so who cares. Nevertheless, the option remains open.

Other than that, it's just a matter of bringing Cologne online and pumping out a steady stream of Settlers, Workers and Axemen. I don't need Saladin's land, so I'll leave him alone while I cut out a big slice of the world in the middle. I think Berlin will make a good GP Farm with its Wonders and Food, so I forsee moving the Palace somewhere in the middle of the map to a better Commerce site and possibly replacing it in Berlin with the Forbidden Palace.

All things considered, this save is only as good as it is because of the opportune goodie huts. No matter what happens, I'm gonna feel bad about it ... either my save is chosen because of those events or it will not be chosen in spite of them -- the latter of which means I suck at this game!
 
I couldn't fit all my screenshots in one post, so here is the addendum ...

The State of the World: 20 BC

Spoiler :
I'm low on military, but since Saladin won't attack at Pleased and millions of miles from any other civs, I figure I'm safe.

Otherwise, all the pics speak for themselves:

MC1_20BC_Tsongkhapa.jpg


MC1_20BC_Domestics.jpg


MC1_20BC_Civics.jpg


MC1_20BC_Glance.jpg


MC1_20BC_Techs2.jpg


MC1_20BC_Techs.jpg


MC1_20BC_Military.jpg


MC1_20BC_Religion.jpg


MC1_20BC_Demographics.jpg


MC1_20BC_Wonders.jpg


MC1_20BC_SmallMap.jpg


NOTE: From east to west, this image is to scale, so the distance between Germany and France is exact in both directions.



I've also attached a very large version of the world map. I'm sorry it's not in spoiler tags, but it's the only way to attach it without it being shrunk by Photobucket. I also apologize for the graininess ... not compressing the hell out of the image makes it gi-freakin-normous.
 
Nevermind. Save was included in the previous post.
 
I think it's interesting that most of us settled *on* the marble. Great minds think alike, eh? Same goes for the floodplains city; I think I saw three summaries where the city was built on the southern end of the island, avoiding Berlin's BFC and getting lots of hills and riverside tiles ...

This game is doing wonders for me (as it were :P) ... When I look at the exploration, settlement, and extra wonder or two generated by most of you, I realize my game needs a lot of work.
 
Holy damn ...

I got two free techs from huts and still appear to either be barely on par or even behind some of the other saves.

@ Vale: Dayum. What level do you normally play on? This last round you put in was superb -- especially how strong your economy is right now.
 
Wow OTAK, nice Huttage! I got boned, but I will take the 2 free :) faces I got and not sweat it.

I agree you should have went the other way, MC off Oracle, bulb Currency off the first GM, so you can get a Forge up in Berlin at least. I did it that way, and I think I am in a bit better shape.

In my game, Sal sent an Axe + Settler over to the big island and settled Damascus there. Thats sort of why I was thinking I needed to get a settler over there ASAP, to establish a foothold right away. I dunno though, future makes a pretty good argument for stalling that approach and concentrating on taking out Sal, then taking whatever cities he or the Barbs have over there. I still like the idea of settling it now.

I think I am going to build the HGs instead of Parth, myself. Health is going to be a problem, IMHO, unless we hit a jackpot of resources. This is looking like a Fractal map, though, with big snakey islands instead of one snakey continent, which is a total bonus for us since the GLH is worth a TON more like this.

I need to do a better summary of my position, though, add some screenshots of the various advisors. I will do that now.
 
Wow, it's like everyone else got 50 more turns than me, lol. I wonder if I can manage to figure out why everyone else seems to have a gazillion more hammers.
 
Wow, it's like everyone else got 50 more turns than me, lol. I wonder if I can manage to figure out why everyone else seems to have a gazillion more hammers.
By working all 3 clams in Berlin for Settlers, and whipping them out for 2 with IND (and marble, in some cases) bonus overflow the next building (a Wonder, Forge or Granary).

I just gotta say I really dont like the 3S spot for that city. On the marble may always be a junk city, but its a 2-hammer city-tile that CAN work a few cottages and a hill or two while it grows. I may even settle a couple GMs in there for extra food to work another mine. If the Marble city was there, sure, junk it, share a clam for some extra growth. But both the Capitol and that Western Marble Island city are going to be our biggest cities, sharing THAT many tiles is going to be painful later in the game.

But a LOT of the extra hammers you see are coming from leader trait bonuses, EXP and IND. Forges and Granaries and Wonders all get a bonus, and that bonus is applied to whip overflow hammers and chopped hammers too. Did you see my screenshot of 137 hammers into the ToA in one turn from a base production of 10 hammers? I have another of 110 into a Forge from a whip. Thats where they come from. Thats why its worth it to build those "cheapened" Wonders.
 
Here are some of my 10 AD screenshots.

F1 and Financial screens:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0070.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0071.jpg


Civics and Religion screen:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0072.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0076.jpg


Glance, Resources, and Techs screens:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0073.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0075.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0074.jpg

In my 4 cities I have:
3 Forges, 3 Granaries, 2 Monuments (none in Cap yet), 2.75 Barracks (3rd almost done).
 
@ Vale: Dayum. What level do you normally play on? This last round you put in was superb -- especially how strong your economy is right now.
I haven't been playing much unmodded Civ recently, preferring to stick to FFH II, so I think Monarch is a good jumping off point to get back in.

You can definitely see the rust (mismanagement of first round and the total mismanagement of Munich's growth at the end of this round).

Most of the "strength" of the economy is because of the settled Merchant I would think.
 
Vale, I opened your save, and you also chose to settle the Western Marble City 3S of Berlin. I cannot understand why you would want to have so many shared tiles with your 2 best cities. Berlin has the growth potential to be a MONSTER city, and that Western half of Marble Island is the best land "our territory" has. I dont mind crowding that city with the one on the marble, and again with the one on the plains-hill jutting out to the north of the Marble, but 6 shared tiles with your capitol, I dont get it. This game isnt going to be a "quicky", long term planning has to take some precedence here. If there was an option to share off 1 of the Clams (for example, had we moved our initial settler 1W, then built another city 4E of that, sharing 3 tiles, including a clam) I could see it, but I disagree with the 3S choice quite a bit. You wont need the clams to grow that Western Marble city, FPs with farms, changing to Cottages once its up and running, is, IMHO, a much better option for growth in that area.
 
Here's a 10AD update screenshot from my own game. I'll post a report once another roster member submits his game.
Spoiler :
10ADglance.jpg
 
I've discussed my reasoning about that overlap before we even played the round.

Frankfurt will have to be size 13! before the overlap really costs it the use of any of its tiles. By not settling it further south I achieved:

1. Faster start to Frankfurt's life
2. Ability to work our best land (which is the improved clams) more effectively. Berlin does not have the ability to work all of them constantly. 4-5 Food and 3 Commerce is the best tile we have in our entire empire. The idea of letting any of them go unused for extended periods of time seems wasteful to me.
3. Potential for a fourth city on that island which is going to be worth settling even in the short term because of our wonders.
4. Preserved a forest (by not settling on it) which is actually going to be important for health in the early going of this game. I see lots of areas clear cut in several saves, and I think that will come back to bite us unless we manage to grab more than I'm expecting with an early war/expansion.

I screwed up parts of that round, specifically the growth of Munich. But I'm completely satisfied with the placement of Frankfurt.
 
I've discussed my reasoning about that overlap before we even played the round.
On water maps, I really don't think overlap is an issue. You want to work as many land tiles as possible as much as possible, and that's only possible with overlap.
 
I remember discussing it, and I agree with the logic that we CAN pack some extra cities in because of our GLH + Colossus combo, and they wont suffer too baddly, but still . . .

Frankfurt will have to be size 13! before the overlap really costs it the use of any of its tiles. By not settling it further south I achieved:

1. Faster start to Frankfurt's life
2. Ability to work our best land (which is the improved clams) more effectively. Berlin does not have the ability to work all of them constantly. 4-5 Food and 3 Commerce is the best tile we have in our entire empire. The idea of letting any of them go unused for extended periods of time seems wasteful to me.
3. Potential for a fourth city on that island which is going to be worth settling even in the short term because of our wonders.
4. Preserved a forest (by not settling on it) which is actually going to be important for health in the early going of this game. I see lots of areas clear cut in several saves, and I think that will come back to bite us unless we manage to grab more than I'm expecting with an early war/expansion.

I screwed up parts of that round, specifically the growth of Munich. But I'm completely satisfied with the placement of Frankfurt.
13 isnt that far out of the realm of possibility, and with HR, we can get there pretty fast. Frankfurt isnt the problem though, Berlin is. I will be using all 3 clams QUITE a bit, especially pumping out settlers and workers, because of the commerce on those tiles as well as the 5F. Honestly, although I will adjust for growth now and then, once I have HR I will likely work all 3 clams all the time.

I will look at your points one at a time, though.

1. Yes, your Frankfurt will start faster than my Cologne (4W of Marble). I am not in an all-fired hurry though. This is Epic speed, a border pop and a couple farms on the FPs will also be pretty quick. I agree though, yours is faster, but speed of growth isnt enough of a reason to overlap 6 tiles IMHO.

2. Again, I plan to work ALL the clams, as well as ALL the mines, and ALL the cottages. In fact, the one tile I wont work with Berlin is the farm it shares with my Copper city (I placed mine 1S of yours, on the grassland, so it could get that farm and the chain-irrigated farm on the lower SE corner of Berlin Island).

3. 4 is extreme. 3 is packing it in pretty well, with a bunch of overlap and shared tiles, but the slow growth of the Marble city will let us get away with it. 4 though . . . we dont NEED to be that tight, especially now that I see how much un-settled land there is past Sal on that next island. There are no capitols on that island, so its wide open. We will get plenty of cities there, all coastal since its not very wide.

I tell ya, there is nothing I hate more than getting to the middle game, growing my cities into the teens, only to discover I have run out of workable tiles. My games dont end before my cities reach 20, and being able to work more "strong" tiles during that 12-18 growth stage is just as important as a "fast start". I generally avoid sharing more than 3 tiles with my Capitol ever.

4. I chopped that forest for 20 base hamnmers, which equals 50 into the Oracle. I am also considering the HGs, both for Engineer GPPs and the health benefits. I do agree that we should be careful with our health, but 2 FPs isnt going to hurt us, nor will 1 less Forest.

Also, your Frankfurt has 3 ocean tiles in it, where my Cologne only has 1, the rest are coastal. Eventually, those tiles WILL come into play. I suppose if we are so far ahead of the AI it wont matter at that point, and I do understand some of that logic, faster start now = more likleyhood of being a super-strong position later where overlap and ocean tiles wont make much difference, but still . . .

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Excellent set of turns though, you got your bang for the buck from those Clams, thats for sure. I was considering sneaking in 2 Monasteries next set (I have Hindu and Confu in Berlin), but you got one already, and a temple. Nicely played indeed. I just wish you had went 1S with Frankfurt, LOL.
 
Bleys, you make several good points, as always. I think the way you have to look at the 3S site is, it only takes tiles away from Berlin if you let it. In the early parts of the game, when Berlin will almost never be able to work all 3 clams, it's going to be very nice to let another city share them. At the latter stages of the game, if Berlin is such an awesome city that it wants every single tile, Hamburg can just work something else. The reason it doesn't make a big difference is that if you settle Hamburg so there's no overlap, you're not getting any resource tiles at all. I'd rather have it part-time working a shared clam tile than never be able to work any resources, ever.

Take a look at what extra tiles you pick up by settling in the spot you prefer. To me, it looks like 2 plains hills and 1 grassland hill (the one with the forest on it). The most you can EVER lose by settling in the 3S spot, even if you decided for some reason to never, ever work a shared tile from Hamburg, is those 3 hills.

Now, I like hills as much as the next guy, but unless you farm some grassland, those hills won't be much good to you anyway. It's such an obvious cottage site, no matter which place you choose to settle in, and so the production from the hills doesn't make that much of a difference to me. You've got enough to get your basic buildings up in that city and that's all that really matters.

It's just my judgment that the short-term gain from being able to share those tiles outweighs the long-run benefit of being able to work 20 tiles in each city. I could be wrong.
 
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