Monarchists' Cookbook I

[vale]

That's because most of us only just got Pottery. In my case, it came in 5 Turns ago.

It also doesn't help the Granary is a 1pop whip due to Expansive -- which means we either slow build it or whip overflow into it (instead of into a Wonder ).

Thats what I mean by early. Like for instance, prioritizing pottery over sailing and hard building the granary with a single chop and normal hammer input. Nobody did this, but it was viable and a powerful approach.

The fact that the granary costs 45 hammers instead of 90 is a bonus, not a penalty. We can't (and don't have to) whip everything. An early granary of this sort would allow more effective whip overflow later.

Early Hereditary Rule is fine, but it doesn't solve the health caps which are just as real and not too much higher than our happy caps. Like it or not Berlin is not going to become a super city without either war or a bunch of infrastructure to boost the health cap.

And everyone seems to be discussing this in terms of tiles that Berlin is losing, which really is not the issue right? If our presumable Bureaucracy capital wants to use a tile, it gets it correct? So it isn't losing any tiles long term, and short term it is sharing tiles that it isn't working when otherwise they would be unused.

More relevant is the tiles that the southern city would be losing by being placed there. It loses some hill tiles that are shared with the other two cities, it loses the southern plains hill, and it loses some coastal tiles. Every other tile is still available. It has to grow to size 13 before the fact before the overlap with the capital and the other city cramp its ability to work productive tiles. That really is not in the early future even running HR.

In return, it gets a jump start to it's growth and is running with productive tiles from day 1 (improved clams and inner ring flood plains).

 

[Winston Hughes]

@vale
Good points. I was already leaning that way, but you've pretty much sold me on sharing the clams.

thank the stars we are Expansive!

Indeed. This demonstrates how situational that bonus is. I've had games where I never made use of it at all, but in this case it'll be extremely valuable. Even so, it's not going to be enough unless we can find some more resources before too long.

Tech-wise, with the Harbour's bonus to health and trade routes, Compass has a lot going for it. But with Monarchy, Mathematics and Currency also on our shopping list (plus Construction if we want to be ready for war in round 3), that's a awful lot of beakers.

With this in mind, I think OTAKUjbski is right to consider taking something other than MC from the Oracle.

My plan is very similar to yours. I want 5-6 cities up and running with as strong a TRE as I can get. After Granaries, Barracks are of key importance as well.

Isn't that a bit much to ask, given you want 4 wonders and you're planning on founding a slow-growing city to claim the marble before settling any of the better spots?

Since they have to come soon or not at all, you should be able to work out a rough ETA for the GLh, Oracle and ToA (the Colossus will wait until later, I assume). How much of the round are you expecting to have left for 'normal' development after those three are built?

If we can find some unsettled islands to the east, reachable by Galley, I want to get them.

Personally, I'm not sure that's a good idea. Aside from those nasty distance maintenance costs (which will eat into the trade route profits), such cities could be very vulnerable if and when we decide to attack Sal. Moreover, it looks like the trade routes and resource supplies to those cities would have to run through Sal's culture, meaning they'd get cut the moment war is declared (or OB is cancelled for some other reason).

If there are a couple of awesome spots, and we can be fairly sure of getting there first, then sending a settling party may be a viable option. But, at this point, I think we have to assume that we'll be stuck with these few islands until we go to war. It's much better to rely on the probables and the certains than on the possibles and the unlikelies imo.

 

[Bleys]

Since I am looking at building those 4 wonders in at least 2, maybe 3 cities, I dont think it will cut into military development too baddly. Remember, whip-overflow, Marble, and IND is going to produce a LOT of those hammers. Whipping into Wonders with an IND leader is one of the best production shortcuts in the game. Also, I am in no rush to build the Colossus this set, and I am not even totally sold on the ToA. A lot depends on the games actual "situation" once the GLH is done. Forges may be expensive, and may hurt healthwise, but they are still valuable for the production bonuses. I dont understand why we want to avoid trying to leverage our most powerful trait. A few key wonders here and there can make the rest of the game smooth out very easily.

HG is another idea that should be considered. We will have health issues before happiness ones under HR.

As for islands, again, it is situational, but I wont discard the "idea" until I see/dont see them. Most of our games have not even explored along Sals first bits of coast. Besides, an island can also serve as a jumping point into another AIs territory. Granted, it may have a blip with a potential war on Sal, but what is our likely early targets when we get around to Sal? His coastal cities.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I'm dying to play the next round.

Any word on the verdict?

 

[slobberinbear]

I can almost guarantee you I'll be assaulting Saladin with whichever save is chosen. Looking forward to it.

 

[Nares]

I dont understand why we want to avoid trying to leverage our most powerful trait.

What wonders did you have in mind?

Outside of the Great Lighthouse, I don't think there's a wonder I would consider a "necessity."

Once the Great Lighthouse is up, I think the best plan would be to expand to eight cities ASAP, focusing in growth and commerce.

Get the tech lead on Saladin, including at least Catapults, before launching an attack against him.

For now, there's no Heroic Epic, and there are something like three potentially decent production cities (decent being a relative term).

Getting an army together will be difficult, but getting the tech lead should be easy enough.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Since our dealings with Sal would seem to be a defining factor in the coming rounds (whether or not we go to war), I thought it might be useful to have a little intelligence on his personality and playing style.

The following information is taken from dj_anion's fantastic Civ4 BtS Reference Sheet*:

Spoiler :

Behaviour
favors: military, religion
builds wonders: very rarely
trains units: often
aggression level: medium
espionage level: normal
tech trading: moderate, 40%
peace probability (%): 20/70/100/100
refuses to talk delay: medium

Explanations for a couple of the less obvious ones:

Spoiler :

trains units refers to military unit training probability at peace
tech trading refers to technology trading behaviour; number is the percentage of rival civs who must know a technology before the leader is willing to trade it away.
peace probability Percentages are for Annoyed / Cautious / Pleased / Friendly relations. Each round, every AI will run a Declaration of War check against every other civilization. This check involves an evaluation of relative military strengths, defensive pacts, logistical considerations (shared borders, ocean crossings), existing conflicts, etc. The Peace Probability percentages above indicate the likelihood that an AI will ignore a decision to declare war due to diplomatic factors.

Diplomatic attitudes
base: 0, share war: +1 (max. +4)
favourite civic: +1 (max. +1)
same religion: +1 (max. +5)
different religion: –2
close cultural borders: max. –3
worse/better rank difference: 0/+2

Diplomatic relationship at or below which trades will be refused
technology: annoyed
strategic bonus: cautious
happiness bonus: furious
health bonus: annoyed
maps: cautious
open borders: annoyed
declare war: cautious
declare war on X: annoyed
stop trading: pleased
stop trading with X: cautious
adopt civic: cautious
convert religion: pleased
defensive pact: cautious
vassal state: cautious

*http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236346

 

[slobberinbear]

Is the verdict in? Let's get crackin' on round 2!

 

[Bleys]

We are supposed to have a decision today, Diamond is in Europe, not sure exactly which time-zone, but at least 6 away from the US zones, so I imagine we will have a save to play sometime soon.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Diamondeye is Central European Time (UTC+1), so it's ~1730 right now.

I kinda figured the post would've been made last night (his "this morning"), but as long as it comes before my tonight, I'll be okay ... I think.

 

[Bleys]

I reported him, if no one else beat me to it.

Will edit this post later.

 

[grandad1982]

All ready reported him. What a total merchant banker! Rhyming slang if you don't know....

 

[futurehermit]

I'm interested to see how the next round plays out. Lots of different ideas floating around. I think we will start to see more deviation in the next round, so that is exciting.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Well, it's 0036 Saturday morning UTC, and no word from Diamondeye, so as his deputy, I'm going to make the call ...

Round 2 begins!!!


We will be using r_rolo1's save. Please find his Round 1 Report here.

Round 2 will last from 2000 BC - 10 AD.

Only Round 2 saves and reports based off the official "Best Ball Save" will be considered for Round 2's best ball voting.

If you wish to shadow using your own save, you are still invited to do so, but please remember not to play (read "report") past 10 AD.

And with that, let the games begin ...

 

[futurehermit]

Congrats r_rolo1! I think we can do good things with this save. I'm looking forward to the next round. I may even have some time to play and post tomorrow.

 

[r_rolo1]

Spoiler tags removed from 1st round ....

 

[Solon70]

I'm not sure whether to shadow with my own, more warlike save, or to play the best ball save instead. I think it would be instructive to see how a warmongering plan turns out, but an axe rush definitely isn't the choice I would make from r_rolo1's early development and choice of techs, so I'd wind up playing it like everyone else pretty much.

 

[slobberinbear]

From your warmonger in the peanut gallery ...

Spoiler :

I did some serious thinking when I looked at the save. There was no way I could gear up for war from Rolo's save. I then reread the thread and decided that the wonderspam lite (tm) approach would be called for here, given our access to copper and marble, and the fact that Bizzy is industrious. Ergo, no axe rush.

Turn 81: Saladin asks me to convert to Hinduism. I agree. I need the happiness, and since I'm being a docile German, I need friends.

Turn 85: I realize I need to interrupt pottery for masonry and do so, so that I can build the Great Lighthouse immediately when the marble is hooked up.

Turn 89: Settler finishes. He is loaded on the boat to claim the marble. Berlin builds a warrior. Worker was previously moved back to the home island, and is pre-chopping in anticipate of wonderspam clearcut (tm).

Turn 92: Warrior 2 finishes. Warrior 3 started.

Turn 93: masonry finishes, resuming pottery.

Turn 94: Not wanting to build another worker right now, and wanting the marble hookup now, I decide to settle Hamburg smack dab on marble. Warrrior 3 done in Berlin, and we start on the GLH. Our worker starts chopping in earnest.

Turn 97: pottery completed. Wanting to raise Germany's happy caps, I started on monarchy, since we have no happiness resources available.

107: GLH completed! I immediately start on the Oracle in Berlin.

115: Berlin is clear-cut, but the Oracle is finished! I took metal casting, natch, and started on settler (since copper is not hooked up yet).

123: At his request, I opened borders with Sal. Monarchy finished, and I adopted HR + slavery. Research started on writing.

128: settler done in berlin, and I started on a worker. Old worker + settler get on the galley and move down to the floodplain area.

132: munich founded south of floodplains. I didn't want to overlap too much, and this spot has lots of food and hammers, plus some commerce from the floodplains when I cottage them.



135: agriculture finished. I decide to research Animal Lovin' to see if we have any horses.

140: AH finishes. No horses. Going for Iron Working just to be thorough.

141: Berlin's border finally pops pop gets copper. New worker going to mine it. Whip settler for 2, overflow to forge.

143: I decided to found Cologne in the spot to get copper suggested by other poster, which happily gets two grassland tiles.



149 hinduism spreads to Cologne.

150: IW finished, and we have iron near Hamburg! We generated a Great Prophet in berlin, who was promptly settled for the cash n' hammer super value meal.

152: Our forge in Berlin finished, and I started on the Colossus. 16 turns, but with some mining and population growth, I should get that down a little.

160: Mathematics done, going for polytheism for Parthenon.

164: Polytheism done, taking aesthetics next.

165: Colossus done! I managed to whittle 3 turns off the completion from the mining and population growth (no chopping or whipping). Building granary in Berlin.

168: The granary done in berlin, building work boat for 3rd clam.

171: 3rd work boat done, last clam secured, building axeman in berlin.

174: Aesthetics done, starting on Literature. Berlin building library for Great Library when Literature is done. Hamburg and Munich working on forges. in the secondary cities, I generally built monument - granary - forge.

So ... by 10 AD, Germany had 4 cities, had built the Great Lighthouse, Oracle, and Colossus, and was poised to build an army in the late classical or medieval ages to tackle Saladin. Not the imminent bloodbath I'd promised, but I didn't think it prudent to go to war on his save.

 

[vale]

Spoiler :

Sorry for the lack of screens. I forgot and by the time I remembered it was way too late to go back and do them.

2000BC: Revolt to slavery.
1900BC: Whip the Settler but put a Hindu Temple above it in the queue for now.
1775BC: Put the Settler back to the top of the queue.
1750BC: Pottery finished. Start Masonry. Settler completes, put Granary in queue above the temple. Convert to Hinduism.
1700BC: Granary finishes, continue work on temple.
1675BC: Hamburg founded. Starts on the oracle while working a coastal tiles for now to speed up Masonry and Writing research.
1550BC: Temple finishes in Berlin, Masonry finished researching. Being researching Writing while building the Great Lighthouse in Berlin.
1350BC: Writing is finished. Immediately sign open borders with Saladin and start exploring his area with a scout. Sometime around here I put a Settler in the queue in Berlin and build it a few turns so that I will be able to maximize a 3 pop whip's overflow when I do whip it. Start research of Mathematics.
1275BC: The settler is finished in Berlin. Is transported to the southernmost island to grab fish+whales.
1150BC: Munich is founded and starts construction of a work boat.
1050BC: Great Lighthouse is finished in Berlin. It starts construction of a Library.
1000BC: Oracle finishes in Hamburg. Take Metal Casting. Berlin immediately switches production to a forge. Hamburg starts a Granary.
950BC: Berlin finishes the forge after a whip.
875BC: Mathematics is done, start research of Currency.
775BC: Library done in Berlin, Granary done in Hamburg. Berlin starts a Settler, Hamburg starts a Forge. Scout exploring the area northeast of Saladin finds a hut with gold.
725BC: Settler in Berlin is finished after a whip. Start a barracks in Berlin. Meet Japanese. They are Hindi but that obviously is not enough for OB. Another protective leader yay.
700BC: Work Boat finishes in Munich after a whip. It improves the fish. Munich starts a Lighthouse.
675BC: Cologne founded to pick up the copper. Cologne starts a Forge.
650BC: Hamburg gets Hinduism. Scout gets XP from a tribal village. I give it guerilla promotions because I'm dealing with lots of hills there.
625BC: Berlin finishes Barracks, starts Hindu Monastery.
500BC: Munich finishes a Granary after putting it in the queue for a turn and whipping it. It continues work on the lighthouse.
470BC: Hindu Monastery is done in Berlin, starts work on the Colossus.
455BC: Learn Currency, start research of Polytheism.
410BC: Learn Polytheism, start Aesthetics.
395BC: Hamburg finishes Forge, starts Library.
350BC: Berlin finishes a Settler that it built for one turn before whipping. Munich puts a Forge in it's queue because in my inattentiveness it has grown to size 3 and unhappy, and I want to set myself up to have a 0 food option there asap.
335BC: Cologne finishes the forge, starts a Barracks. I'm planning on stagnating it at population 2 to work the 2 grassland hill mines and pump a few units out before it does anything else.
320BC: Frankfurt is founded in the controversial spot 3S of Berlin. Over the rest of the round it does get some access to the clams when Berlin is unable to take advantage of one or more of them. It starts a third work boat which will now definitely not go to waste.
290BC: Berlin finishes the Colossus, starts the Temple of Artemis. I didn't think I would complete it in time, but the cash was going to be nice. I beg Saladin for 50 gold.
245BC: Aesthetics is done, Literature started.
215BC: Frankfurt gets Judaism in it.
185BC: Literature complete, Code of Laws started. Great Merchant born in Berlin, settled immediately. Munich finishes whipping a forge and starts running an Engineer.
170BC: Berlin is hit by a hurricane that destroys its Barracks and Forge (yay). It immediately swaps production to a replacement forge which it will whip in a turn. Cologne finishes its Barracks and starts an Axeman.
155BC: Frankfurt finishes a whipped Granary and continues work on its Work Boat.
140BC: Berlin finishes the replacement Forge.
110BC: Munich finishes the Lighthouse that it whipped the turn before and starts on a Library.
65BC: Code of Laws is in, Confucianism founded in Munich. Cologne finishes an Axeman that is slowly going to get down to Munich which is growing way too quickly to control anger issues. Start research of Civil Service. Cologne starts another Axeman.
50BC: Hamburg finishes a Library. Starts a Hindu Temple.
20BC: Berlin finishes Temple of Artemis, starts work on Great Library.
10AD: Cologne finishes an Axeman and starts another one. This one garrisons in Cologne for now.

Current state of the world:
I've pretty much explored the entire big island on the other side of Saladin. It had no capitals and when I was first exploring it only had two cities (Saladin's and a Barbarian) built on it (although Toku had a Settler and Worker there with no protection (probably got hit by Barbs). I've planted my scouts on a hill around where we might plant a foothold city when we get a chance, but we need to have a garrison ready to go when we put it down there. I would have had another city at this point but the hurricane event really sucked, basically turning what would have been a settler whip into a replacement forge whip while losing the bonus Barracks I built while waiting for copper to be hooked up to double my colossus production.

I have succeeded in getting the wonders we had talked about although one is not in Berlin. Berlin has TOA, GLH and Colossus, while Hamburg has the Oracle. Berlin is allegedly 13 turns from completing the Great Library although that is probably a little bit further if people do as I plan and whip a Settler somewhere along the way there. My military is weak, consisting of 2 scouts, a warrior, 2 Axemen, a galley and a confucian missionary. I've got a decent map of the nearby land, and its not all bad and if we are quick we may be able to at minimum get a decent foothold on that large island. There is a barb city on that island (last time I looked it had 3 archers in it). That might be worth trying to take too. Civil Service would be 13 turns away if we had enough cash to deficit research all the way. I think one turn of 100% cash will give us the cash we need to do so, so call it 14 turns away. Berlin is also 18 turns away from a Great Person which is probably going to be a Merchant or a Prophet.

Tokugawa has alphabet, but obviously isn't trading with us yet. Saladin does not have Alphabet and is researching CoL right now.

There is still room for 2 cities on the southern island, but now that we have mostly claimed that with our culture, it may be no rush to grab those sites, prioritizing getting a foothold on the large island instead.

 

[slobberinbear]

@ vale:

Spoiler :

wow. I really need to work on my micro and learn the art of the overflow. I thought I was doing good to whip into workers and granaries for expansive. Basically, you were able to fully explore, get one more wonder than me (ToA), settle one more city than me, and founded confucianism. And, you didn't bother sinking your beakers into AH, IW, or Monarchy, freeing up you to go straight for the Great Library. I am at least a notch or two below you, skill-wise ... well done.