Monarchists' Cookbook I

OTAKU, looking at your save, would you say the Temple of Artemis was worth the investment? You could have used those hammers to build a settler which would have netted you more commerce per turn than the Temple does.

Without the marble, the trade off is even more extreme, as the Temple of Artemis costs roughly the same as two settlers.
 
Solon, given that you founded Confucianism in Hamburg, do you plan on spreading the faith and using a Great Prophet to build a shrine, should one pop?

Also, you built the Colossus, but you're only working four water tiles. I ask you the same question that I asked OTAKU; do you consider the trade off of not building a settler worthwhile? The extra commerce you're currently getting from the Colossus is less that what you would get from an extra settler due to trade routes.
 
The main point is running population 8 with 3 clams 3 mines and 2 cottages isn't sustainable. That tile set is +8 food, growing rapidly into guaranteed unhealth, possible unhappiness and probable unimproved tiles (if you can call a 2F3C coastal unimproved).
Thats what Slavery is for, as well as the Aqueduct I am building now, and a possible HG. The whip isnt going to be be used on unhappiness so much as unhealthiness. Besides, any number above the health cap isnt going to hurt us, with +8 food it just gets eaten faster, so perhaps I can only get to 11 pop with those 8 food.

I'm not so sure I understand what the big rush to get cottages down in Berlin was. The forests had definite value to maintain health and coastal tiles are 2F3C assuming we all got the Colossus. By forcing ourselves to maintain the population to grow the cottages, we are reducing our ability to take advantage of the whip to boost production or we are not working all of our most productive tiles.

Bureaucracy is going to be a boon to production and commerce with or without cottages in Berlin.
It wasnt a rush, it was a "I dont want to work unimproved tiles" situation. And I only cut 2 forests, one on the other hill and the one next to the river for a farm. The 2 cottages I built were on tiles that were already grassland.

I will agree that we diminish our whipping ability somewhat by allowing Berlin to grow, but we still have pretty strong whipping power there, and growing Berlin now is a GOOD thing, not a bad one. We are on the brink of Monarchy (my game anyway, 9 turns) and CS is right around the corner (or in the case of futurehermits save, is in right now).

As I said, I think we will have to agree to disagree on the subject. I am not die-hard against overlap to a degree, I just think this is a case of far too much. With ToA, Colossus, and GLH in the cap, I want as much population as I can get there, its likely to be my best GP farm, and my biggest science producer, and Bur is going to very strong. I would far less argument if it wasnt the capitol you were poaching, but it is.
 
I definitely plan on spreading Confucianism. Founding a religion in my best commerce city = Wall Street.

Something that occurs to me is that this isn't the greatest map for the Colossus, even though it's a water map. In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of the Colossus is to found a bunch of cities with as little as one food resource (typically seafood) and just let them work the coastal tiles and grow. I actually played a different game last night where I built a big tech lead with some of the crappiest land imaginable (ice age, high sea levels) just by taking advantage of the GLH and Colossus. Others tend to be better at city spam than me because I'm still working on mastering the technique of squeezing out extra units by building with overflow.

There are still some good spots available for city spam on my map (whale island, the single-tile island north of Berlin) but I feel it's really important to grab some strategic resources over by Sal with the next settler.
 
I think we need to hit Sal before longbows.

/sigh ... I think this is the same "knee jerk reaction" I've mentioned in the ALC's before. :gripe:

Why do we have to hit Sal at all? What does he have we need? ... I mean besides the crappy land with the crappy cities and a religion without a shrine in an okay capital (at best).?

What Saladin has to offer is like "Woo-freakin-hoo. :suicide:"

He isn't blocking our expansion to anywhere and isn't threatening us militarily (he won't attack at Pleased).

We have a significant tech lead and GNP lead, so the longer he lives, the easier his distruction will become.

I think the current return-on-investment for attacking Saladin is minimal and completely not worth it.

--------

That being said, if we decide to move against Sal now, I think your save might be in the best position to do it from.

I tell ya, there is nothing I hate more than getting to the middle game, growing my cities into the teens, only to discover I have run out of workable tiles. My games dont end before my cities reach 20, and being able to work more "strong" tiles during that 12-18 growth stage is just as important as a "fast start".

Concerning the "rack em & pack em" city sprawl, I'm in agreement with Bleys.

This game doesn't appear to be quick-n-easy; we have to be thinking about what the cities are going to look like in the Industrial and Modern Era, because it's very likely that's where this game'll go.

The "fast start" is good, but in this situation, the position it puts us in isn't that much better than the non-overlapping approaches.

That isn't to say the overlap situation in some of the saves is bad ... but I definitely think we don't want to continue exercising severe overlap in new cities.

OTAKU, looking at your save, would you say the Temple of Artemis was worth the investment? You could have used those hammers to build a settler which would have netted you more commerce per turn than the Temple does.

I didn't build it for the :commerce: ... I built it for the :gp: (let's not forget the +1 :hammers: & +1 :gold:)

So yes ... it was very worth it.

========
I like Otaku's quite a bit, except I disagree with some of his city placements.

Which ones and why?

Cologne would've been better placed 1S, but I didn't want to lose that Forest by settling on it. As far as why it's settled "in the middle of nowhere" ... I'm playing nice on this map. It's a base of operations to peacefully grab as much land in the middle of the world as possible -- chopping and whipping Courthouses along the way.

Munich was a coin toss (literally). Settling 1N would've given me the 3 green hills easy, but I never planned on working all 3 at the same time anyway. I plan on working the Grassland Farm, 2 Grassland hill mines and 2 Grassland Cottages -- using the last +1F for steady (albeit slow) growth.

... especially now that I see how much un-settled land there is past Sal on that next island. There are no capitols on that island, so its wide open. We will get plenty of cities there, all coastal since its not very wide.

This is where I think this game should be headed. If we spin our wheels now capturing Saladin's crappy land, it's only going to give the rest of the world that much more time to settle those two large landmasses in the center.

So whereas Saladin may no longer be a threat, our other adversaries will have become that much stronger.

It's apparent based on my save, but I think we need to focus on settling as many good cities and grabbing as many new resources as possible before the rest of the world does it for us.

We all have Code of Laws, so maintenance is manageable. When colonial costs become a problem, we can move the Capital to one of the two large landmasses and build the Forbidden Palace in one of our 'home' cities.

By the time we're finished expanding, nobody'll be able to keep up with us, and the world will be easy pickins.

(My long term plan is to win Domination or Conquest using Infantry and Panzers.)
 
On a different note, I did a Winston Hughes-like comparison of the saves (still waiting on Diamondeye's) based on score and the demographics screen, and this is what I came up with:

NOTE: For the OTAKUjbski save, the Great Prophet was settled in Berlin, and the Settler founded Frankfurt before opening the Demographics screen.​

Code:
		Wonders	Techs	 GNP	  MFG		Soldier	Explored
Solon70		64 (#4)	143 (#5) 115 (#5) 25 (#3)	74000	(#3)
futurehermit	48 (#6)	173 (#1) 131 (#3) 27 (#2)	66000	(#2)
Bleys		80 (#1)	143 (#5) 119 (#4) 23 (#5)	61000	(#3)
Vale		80 (#1)	149 (#3) 153 (#1) 37 (#1)	56000	(#3)
slobberinbear	64 (#4)	149 (#3) 115 (#5) 25 (#3)	64000	(#6)
OTAKUjbski	80 (#1)	161 (#2) 139 (#2) 21 (#6)	47000	(#1)

Vale has the strongest economy (based on GNP and MFG) but has a slight tech deficit to futurehermit and OTAKUjbski.

futurehermit and Bleys' technologies are primarily military technologies ... all others are more economic.

OTAKUjbski has most of the world explored and has met all but 1 of the rival AI civs (but knows where he is).

Bleys, Vale and OTAKUjbski are tied in the Wonder race. Bleys and Vale have the Colossus while OTAKUjbski instead has the Parthenon.
 
I have to admit I like my save the best here. I chose Wonders over settlers, and I think that eventually that choice will pay off extremely well. I can easily pump out more and more settlers with whip-overflow into more Wonders. I am interested in the HGs, the Parth, and the GL in the next set, as well as a pile of settlers and workers. Once I secure Alphabet, my tech deficit evaporates quickly. The Wonders will generate the most GPP points, and they all get better over time. Worth a slight stall in expansion to get them, IMHO.
 
Why do we have to hit Sal? He's within striking distance. That's all the reason I need in 98% of my games. His units will provide ours with xp and however many cities he has are settlers we don't need to build. Then we march our promoted units on to Joao. Then on to Toku. Meanwhile we can still be settling other locations. Plus the $$$ we'll nab from the conquering will help fund deficit research.

Is it any surprise that everyone prefers their own saves? :lol:

I like the format where everyone has to vote, but can't vote for their own saves. But hopefully our more democratic approach will pan out.
 
Which ones and why?

Munich, because it overlaps too much with a city I want to put on the peninsula on Saladin's island after we wipe him out (if he doesn't settle there first) and also doesn't take advantage of the one lone island tile we can workshop later (although the latter point is moot to a large extent).

Cologne, because I think we have other priorities.
 
Is it any surprise that everyone prefers their own saves? :lol:

Not really ... though I can't say I prefer mine entirely.

I think there are really only two options right now: either we attack Saladin or expand around him.

If we attack Sal, then your save is in the best position to almost immediately make that happen.

If we expand around Sal, then I think either Vale's for the strongest economic base or mine because I'm already in that process and know the most about the map already.

Munich, because it overlaps too much with a city I want to put on the peninsula on Saladin's island ...

I'm guessing you're not talking about my Munich then, because it barely overlaps anything we could put on Sal's island (not to mention Saladin already settled the Western tip of his island in my save).
 
Sorry, I thought it was 1N of where it is now. Regardless, I still am not a huge, huge fan of where Munich is. Admittedly, there's not really much in the way of good spots to put a city over there. Where it is I guess is alright and we could put a city on the one-tile island I guess. Meh, we have bad land, what can I say.
 
Ok i'm a little late ,but my BtS kept shutting down..... Unrelated with BtS but was a PITA to resolve.

Anyway:
Spoiler :
Pressed enter and:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0110.jpg

I gave this a good thought... in spite of not coming in the best time possible, I was already thinking on revolting ( 1 :) in capitol and guaranteeded peace with Sal as long as I want ). So we get hindu ;)

Some turns later I settled Hamburg ( never understood the city order of Civ IV: first German city should be Koln ( the millenar Colonia Aggripina ) ) 2 S 1 E of the cooper (forgot screenie ). My reasoning was that I would never get the Berlin culture to pop in time to cover the cooper... Either way with CS will be a very decent prod site.

Oracle got done and MC was grabbed:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0111.jpg

Immediately started a forge in capitol. The capitol will be a pretty strong site with beauro.

Some more turns and a strategical chop later:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0113.jpg

Failed the 1000 BC bench mark of OTAKU because of sharing tiles with Hamburg ( the monument had to go fast enough for the collosus ). Anyway I got a settler while waiting for the Hamburg border pop out:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0114.jpg

I know this might not be the spot everyone would think on, but berlin simply can't handle so much sea food before HR or Rep without Slavery ( that I didn't adopted... wonderspamming capitols should not be whipped. And that nasty slave revolt event .... ). This city a strong food potential and it surely can be a strong cottage center with a big pop ( remember that trade routes have a pop modifier )

Some turns later, my version of the marble site:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0116.jpg

Again this will not be consensual ( bleys and Co, forgive me, but settling on marble gives a utterly crappy city )... This is the only marble city that has some food ( will get better with windmills in the grass hills ) and will develop decent prod.

Wonder #4 ( look mum, without marble )
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0119.jpg

Had a Hind spread, right in the only unhappy city I had at the time . Sometimes I love the RNG
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0120.jpg

I was preparing to wrap up the game when I saw this:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0121.jpg

Saladin bought Monarchy most surely ( last turn he lacked 20 turns to finish it ). I open the diplo and settle this deal:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0123.jpg

Simple: I wanted HR fast ( org Rel also fits in my plans ) and IW is self explanatory.... But my deal also has a devious propose: none of the aesthetics wonders is done and I want to tempt saladin to make wonders and not archers :lol: . Knowing Saladin he'll try a stab at lit as well and that will delay Feud. I revolted ASAP to HR + Org Rel

And this is why I present 2 saves: as the revolt stopped at 25 AD I prefer to adress a save before and after the revolt... some data ( before HR + Org Rel ):

First F1 screen:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0124.jpg

F3 ( like I said before HR + Org Rel )
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0125.jpg

F5 ( Don't laugh... I normally use paper thin army )
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0126.jpg

City screens:

Berlin:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0127.jpg

yup, I had some GMs so far.... I would had prefered a GE or a GP but the food and the money are welcomed. Notice as well the 4 wonders in capitol....
Berlin is preparing for another wonder, the Great Library. Maybe I'll take a stab at HG ( the health and the extra pop would come pretty handy ).

Hamburg
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0128.jpg

Hamburg has not that much of food ATM ( will get far better with CS ), but has a really strong prod potential. By now it is chunking axes for garrisons. will try to get Hindu here ASAP ....

Munich
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0129.jpg

we'll Munich as problems with prod, but has a exceptional food potential. That and the riverside tiles make it a strong cottage center candidate. by now it is using the food to chunk workers for the marble city....

Cologne
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0130.jpg

Well, this city is still a infant. It has food issues, but will be a decent prod site when windmills get here. Will take some turns to pop borders ( I plan to get a Hindu missionary here ASAP ). Probably will not get it in time for a major stab in TGL ( now that Saladin has aesthetics I need to hurry ) ,but it is a deserving spot by it self.

I hhaven't explored too much ( too many worker swaps between the islands to free the galley and too few openings to produece a scouting WB ). but from the score i can say that Saladin has roughly 10 pop ( I get 4 Sal cities in the trade routes ). It knows at least another neighbour ( probably 2 ), but hadn't tech traded a lot.

On me: next priority is clearly some exploring to see if it is feasible and desirable a attack on Saladin and to check the rest of the civs. Saladin had not pressed me so he should have space behind me... maybe a peaceful expansion coul be useful. And no more wonders for a while .... ( except maybe HG ).

Well, time to see the other games.

 
Diamondeye, you didn't include a save.

Sorry, will do tomorrow, even if nobody considers mine best (can't even say I do myself, Vale, Future, Bleys and OTAKU all did marvellous on this round imo)...



I think there are really only two options right now: either we attack Saladin or expand around him.

Hmm. Dunno... Maybe I'm a simpleton, but I'd say: Either we kill him off immidiately, or we wait till our GNP allows us an easy wipeout later (I am thinking cannons and rifles vs LBs).

Reasons for the war could be the increase in :gold: from holy city, as well as:
Land is Power
 
@rolo: man, lucky!! I really wanted someone to have monarchy available, but alas no dice in my game! I really wanted to explore more a la otaku, but my galley was busy running settlers around and dropping scouts all over the place and I just couldn't seem to get another galley or fb out in time to go exploring further. i currently have a galley and 2 scouts in the galley headed out to explore distant lands and hopefully we could find someone who has monarchy asap if my game were to be selected.

i think that is the one regret that i have from my game, namely that my gamble to trade for monarchy pre-cs didn't pay off.
 
I'd like to hear thoughts, considerations and arguments for and against saves... Also, nice round Rolo, just skimmed it through but seems fine to me. I cant understand your marble site, but whatever :rolleyes:, atleast someone other than me rejecting the temptation of Slavery. I hate that civic...

Anyway, funny detail is that I am the only guy meeting Mongolia, and I havent seen a trace of Toku, who appears in most other games... Also, has anyone else had the Suleiman colony message or was it only in my game?

EDIT: I have edited the OP to reflect the system of electing the save (chancellor and deputy), and the fact that we have played round 1.
 
I know this might not be the spot everyone would think on, but berlin simply can't handle so much sea food before HR or Rep without Slavery ( that I didn't adopted... wonderspamming capitols should not be whipped. And that nasty slave revolt event .... ).

Always nice to see someone else stick up for the infamous 3S spot!

Do other people agree with this rule of thumb about whipping? I had not heard it before and am eager to learn.
 
Always nice to see someone else stick up for the infamous 3S spot!

Do other people agree with this rule of thumb about whipping? I had not heard it before and am eager to learn.

As I generally despise whipping, I am eager to agree with RRolo... I haven't heard this rule of thumb before, but it makes sense, especially in a TRE, to avoid whipping when unnecessary... Also, wonderspam cities need longterm :hammers:, whereas slavery provide shortterm :hammers:... That is to say, you can build wonders frmo whipping other units, with chops and overflow, but for a dedicated wonderspam, longterm :production: and a good infrastructure is needed.
 
It is a personal rule.... IMHO they should not be whipped because it will force you to work food tiles to regrow instead of hammer rich ones ( not counting the the less pop to work tiles ). I haven't done the math, but it is my gut feeling. And of course, the infamous slave revolt stuff.... losing the powerdrive of your empire for one turn can be pretty crippling.
 
Heres the thing we need to remember about Sal, he aint Alex or Cathy. Once we decided to share his religion we made a loyal friend for life. He cant really hurt us, but he CAN be a PITA about it later. I am leaning toward taking him out. I say we please him now, but prep to dust him BEFORE LBs, and AFTER we get Maces. Theres a window there. Once he has LBs, we can forget him for a while, but if we CAN take him out, I see no reason not too, it will give us:

1. 100% certainty of access to the bigger island (right now, if we dont have open borders with him, we cannot trade with our cities over there)

2. A Double Holy City, including our own (and the potential future Wall Street site)

3. An awesome HE city (Mecca), with at least 6 hills and 2 clams to feed em.

4. And 1 less AI to deal with overall.

I like Sal, but lets face it, hes a religious nut-bird. I am with the hermit, I say we want him NOW. Hence the emphasis on Military techs in our games, I suppose.
 
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