Monarchists' Cookbook I

[Bleys]

I love Slavery, its one of my most used and abused civics. It provides MANY more hammers than working Mines and not whipping. 2-pop whipping is a powerful production tool. I switched into Slavery the instant I opened the save. Berlin re-grows too fast as it is, and I almost never go into "double-whip" unhappiness. Sure, the Slave event sucks, but so does the Hurricane Event, or having your Forge burn down. Thats the game.

 

[r_rolo1]

It may produce more overall hammers , but puts less hammers in the wonders even with the overflows ( you can do the math easily ) . It may cost you a wonder race pretty easily( BTW by the timings of the wonders there is no Ind civ in game ... They look to be teching pretty poorly as well .. or I'm not used to monarch anymore )

 

[Bleys]

I dont see it that way rolo. I see it as allowing me to basically do 2 things at once, build a wonder and pump out settlers or other 2-pop whip units.

And there is another IND civ in the game, OTAK met Louis. Not sure if he is a colony, like Ramesses is for Suileman, but I think that Louis must not have a decent production area at all.

I built the Wonders I did fairly early in the "usual" timing, though, so its hard to say. I play games at Monarch, but also play a lot of "Monarch Light", scenarios where the AI doesnt get its Archery. There is no question that puts things on a different schedule, since the AIs love to tech Archery pretty early, whereas many human players (myself included) dont bother with it for a WHILE, unless there are severe threats like Barbs or an AI like Monty very very close.

I may build the wonders a few turns "slower", but given the fact that I am also kicking out at least 1 settler per, its an acceptable delay, especially if I give myself plenty of extra time for it. I will often start the Mids in the 3000 BC area, and just constantly put workers and settlers in front of it, and not end up finishing it til 100 AD. It works pretty well, and I think its worth risking 10 gold, 1 pop, and a turn of Anarchy.

Just look at Vales save if you want to see the power of the whip, though, he built an AMAZING amount of stuff.

 

[r_rolo1]

Bleys, Vale makes a huge whipping and overflow game, but he doesn't put all the wonders in the same city, thus we can't compare the wonderspamming factor like that. Believe me, if you try to make Oracle, GLH, Collosus and ToA + forge, library ( partly done ), 2 settlers and a WB in capitol using whipping you simply will underperform ( believe, this time I made the maths... You'll lose one of the wonders most surely ).

My option in putting all the wonders in the same basket was somewhat risky, but puts all the wonder GPP in the same pool and makes Berlin a even more uber site ( with a eye on Beauro )... considering the nearby terrain ( even Saladin terrain is not so good... decent , but not for what I see in OTAKU image ) it may be sound to do so.

 

[futurehermit]

I thought keeping the gpp in the same city was important as well. However, I gave up on the ToA and delayed Colossus in favour of some expansion and other priorities. I certainly would've liked to have had the ToA but there didn't seem to be much love for it during the last round and I was concerned about tying up the build for too long when there were other things I wanted to be producing (I'm not great with using the whip, I admit).

I do think that wonders are going to be driving our gpp for quite awhile. I think barring a disaster we should be able to nab the colossus early in the next round from most of the saves that don't have the colossus already. I was shocked to see it get built in one of the saves.

It's strange to see so much AI deviation in these games. I had no idea the AI would/could perform so differently! haha

 

[Nares]

I don't understand why you're so ready to discount futurehermit's save. He's in the strongest economic position of the roster saves, putting out almost 50% more beakers per turn than any other roster player.

This is a massive advantage that won't be made up from wonderspam. While you're busy settling the remaining local sites, he's poised to gain a tech advantage on Saladin while preparing an army.

I strongly support an early strike against Saladin. He's a life-long friend, and shouldn't have much military to oppose us. I managed to befriend Tokugawa, who may be reliable enough to bribe into backstabbing Saladin. Looking at other games, I notice that Saladin has some strong production cities, which we want to help boost our own desperate production situation.

There's also a window open for him to pop a Great Prophet and build the Kashi Vishwanath for us. I would even consider waiting until I saw his next Great Person pop before invading, as the KV will be a huge help given the dominance of Hinduism, at least in my game. This will help fuel my subsequent expansion and/or conquest (probably expansion).

If he manages to build some wonders in the meantime, so much the better. I'm considering teching Theology, purely to "gift" it to him so that he can build the AP for me. Alternatively, I will need to identify the AP builder, and possibly target that second if the AP is Hindu, despite the fact that I should be able to consistently win the leadership.

I don't see why players are so enamored with some of these wonders. As I pointed out, few water tiles are being worked in general, making the Colossus a GP source with some minor commerce attached to it, currently.

The Temple of Artemis only provides a 1cpt boost to all trade routes in the city its built. Many players don't even have currency, so they're limited to three trade routes. Beyond that, it's worth 2GPP, some culture, and a free priest specialist.

My major qualm with the ToA is with the GPP contamination. For so minimal a benefit, picking up an unavoidable chance at a Great Prophet is unacceptable. While I could have gotten my first Great Person sooner, I'm guaranteed a Great Merchant, which I know I can use to bulb Civil Service, rather than a Great Prophet, which would be blown uselessly on Theology at this point.

As it is, I stand to grab Civil Service within the next 10-20 turns from my save (about the same time as vale, IIRC). This includes completing Metal Casting and researching through all of Code of Laws.

For me, that just seems so much more powerful than anything the ToA could do, and a sour GP pop would have spoiled that.

Granted, my own approach is tainted by my poor wonderspam luck. For those who haven't read my report, I noticed the Oracle was still incomplete by the end of my turnset. But I know my luck, and I know that if I put any hammers into it, it will be BIADL mere turns later. I also dislike so heavily emphasizing wonders because there's much less guarantee of building them on higher difficulty settings, and I think I demonstrated that they're not necessary to success.

Despite being Industrious, I think the real name of this game is Expansive. Cheap granaries and harbors really excite me, especially the harbors. They provide roughly the same net bonus to trade routes as ToA in this stage of the game, but offer a health bonus rather than GPP/specialist. That health bonus can be leveraged into more units for the power graph and more happiness, and from there more output from higher population.

 

[vale]

Bleys, Vale makes a huge whipping and overflow game, but he doesn't put all the wonders in the same city, thus we can't compare the wonderspamming factor like that. Believe me, if you try to make Oracle, GLH, Collosus and ToA + forge, library ( partly done ), 2 settlers and a WB in capitol using whipping you simply will underperform ( believe, this time I made the maths... You'll lose one of the wonders most surely ).

My option in putting all the wonders in the same basket was somewhat risky, but puts all the wonder GPP in the same pool and makes Berlin a even more uber site ( with a eye on Beauro )... considering the nearby terrain ( even Saladin terrain is not so good... decent , but not for what I see in OTAKU image ) it may be sound to do so.

This is not true.

I could have easily spammed Berlin with all the wonders and completed them quickly enough, but that required delaying Currency which I was unwilling to do.

Here is an example of a Berlin wonderspammed save from the same position. Compare:

              Slavery            Not Slavery
Oracle        1350BC               1425BC
GLH           1025BC                950BC
TOA           575BC                 155BC
Colossus      395BC                 485BC
GL            80BC                  N/A

The only wonder not slavery beat slavery to was the Oracle (getting set up with infrastructure first) and Colossus and that was because I was waiting for copper to be hooked up before I devoted hammers to it.

I even got the slave revolt event (which sucks but is infinitely more manageable than the hurricane event) so the fears about that costing too much were unfounded.

I did chop a forest in Berlin to speed up the GLH because I didn't think I was going to get it otherwise. But the non-slavery save did too so thats not an issue I wouldn't think.

In short, if there was ever a capital that is begging to be slaved, it is this one.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Hmm. Dunno... Maybe I'm a simpleton, but I'd say: Either we kill him off immidiately, or we wait till our GNP allows us an easy wipeout later (I am thinking cannons and rifles vs LBs).

I'm guessing you're a simpleton, because all you did was quote me and then restate the quote in your own words, lol.

I don't understand why you're so ready to discount futurehermit's save. He's in the strongest economic position of the roster saves, putting out almost 50% more beakers per turn than any other roster player.

I'm not discounting futurehermit's save or the argument his save has the strongest economic position, but I will discount your fuzzy math.

futurehermit is bringing in 0 / 71 per turn.
r_rolo1 is bringing in 4 / 67 per turn.
OTAKUjbski is bringing in 1 / 61 :science per turn.
Bleys is bringing in 4 / 49 per turn.

For posterity, Vale is bringing in 4 / 74 per turn.

71 is only 5% greater than 67 and 16% greater than 61. (And if the GPT and BPT are summed, then futurehermit and r_rolo1 are on equal footing.)

That being said, I agree with your next statement:

... he's poised to gain a tech advantage on Saladin while preparing an army.

--------

I strongly support an early strike against Saladin. He's a life-long friend ...

IDK ... somehow those two phrases seem ... wrong ... together.

Looking at other games, I notice that Saladin has some strong production cities ...

Some? By "some" I hope you mean "only one".

Mecca is the only city with Production potential, though the lack of food to work all the tiles (hills) makes me sad.

Medina has no food source, and Damascus only has 2 hills for 8 .

Not bad, but certainly not "strong production" ... I think you're being too kind.

There's also a window open for him to pop a Great Prophet and build the Kashi Vishwanath for us. I would even consider waiting until I saw his next Great Person pop before invading ...

I totally agree with you on this point.

His land isn't flowing with milk and honey, so it's not like we need anything he has to offer.

Until there's a shrine, I feel there's no reason to go rushing in.

I'm considering teching Theology, purely to "gift" it to him so that he can build the AP for me.

And also in response to others' comments about waiting for Saladin to build Wonders for us ... Saladin's personality has low emphasis on Wonders, so don't place bets on it.

I don't see why players are so enamored with some of these wonders. As I pointed out, few water tiles are being worked in general, making the Colossus a GP source with some minor commerce attached to it, currently.

I agree the Colossus isn't stellar for this map, but denying the AI a cheap (for us) Wonder and getting gpp is nothing to scoff at.

The Temple of Artemis only provides ... 2GPP, some culture, and a free priest specialist.

I think it's best to look at the benefits as a whole: 5 , 1 , 1 .

My major qualm with the ToA is with the GPP contamination. For so minimal a benefit, picking up an unavoidable chance at a Great Prophet is unacceptable.

Personally, I don't see how a Great Prophet is such a bad thing. Personally, I want Great Prophet in Berlin.

We've already agreed the map is very low in production. Settling a Great Prophet for the extra 2 (and 5 ) is awesome!

While I could have gotten my first Great Person sooner, I'm guaranteed a Great Merchant, which I know I can use to bulb Civil Service, rather than a Great Prophet, which would be blown uselessly on Theology at this point.

I also agree with you on this point. I had a higher chance of popping a Great Prophet, but I was crossing my fingers for a Great Merchant at the end of this round.

I don't frown at Great Prophets, but I did really want a Great Merchant.

 

[r_rolo1]

After rereading some of the games I think that there is absolutely no need to attack Saladin: especially the OTAKU map makes me confirm mty suspicions that this was a archi or M&S map... my experience with this maps is that normally there is lots of unclaimed land for a long while ( AI start to give independance to the islands and both colony and master become weaker .... they start to lag a lot ). The area E-SE of Saladin seems pretty decent and it would pay itself even without Couthouses due to the trade routes of GLH.....

OTOH Saladin land only worths because of his capital, that is also a holy city. We can get better places than his other cities easily without a fight.....

As my feeling is that this game will go to mop up phase by the time of Combustion or even earlier, a war with Saladin ( that would hurt our finances badly... all of our foreign trade routes are from or pass by saladin's territory ) now does not look the best path IMHO

 

[futurehermit]

Saladin is in striking distance and settling cities peacefully is boring

The less enemies still alive the greater our chances for victory imho

 

[r_rolo1]

Saladin is in striking distance and settling cities peacefully is boring

The less enemies still alive the greater our chances for victory imho

You know you can win without killing anyone, don't you?

Let's put it in perspective:

Saladin should have at least 3 archers in his capital when we gat there 8 I bet 4 or 5 ). I agree that with maces it would be a complete mop up, but I'm simply thinking if settling peacefully in the south ( the north seems too crowded for my taste ) more 3 or 4 cities and mop up when we hit cannons ( with so much water , going to chemistry -> Steel seems far better than rifling )

 

[Bleys]

I prefer my save over the others because of the Wonders and Military advantages for future of our Empire. The extra Great People I will generate alone more than make up for being slightly behind in expansion. Forcing bad cities down this early in the game seemed like a worse plan than spamming a couple wonders and starting to look at a military move on Sals land.

I can shuffle tiles in my save and get pretty close to the "top numbers" as well. Remember, we cannot be so focused on the "current" positions without being mindful of the future. Thats why I personally do not like any of the saves with a city 3S of Berlin. I think we get so caught up in the "right now" that we totally forget the "tomorrow". How much are the extra Great People me or OTAK will generate worth? How much are my 3 Forges "worth"? Futurehermit doesnt have a single forge, and all his forests on the 2 main islands are gone.

Not trying to bust your balls future, but you played a bit for the "now". I am looking at the "tomorrow". I want faster production, a few Forests for other Wonders or troops if needed, Barracks in all cities, and Construction for the war. Once I get to 4 or so Axes, I will go straight Cats and Galleys until I can make Maces, and hopefully I can grow my cities so that I can whip/chop out a pile of them and take Sal out of the picture, and have a nice, connected empire.

Just opening my save, pulling my Engineer specialist and moving a few tiles, I get my gold/beaker ratio to +2/+57, with 2 cities about to gain another pop next turn. I dont know about you guys, but I will take the Wonders all day. If we are going to play an IND leader, I dont see the point of not leveraging his trait and go for the best wonders for the map.

And I REALLY dont understand this Colossus dissing. With Copper it was DIRT cheap. Not only that, but the 2 GM GPPs are nothing to sneeze at. I have very little Prophet pollution in Berlin, and intend to add a GE Wonder next set, while continuing to expand. Can you not see a point down the road where each city will be working at least a few coastal tiles? Isnt every single city we build likely to be coastal? I dont know how the rest of you play, but I intend to try REX like mad and GROW my cities to 10 ASAP, head for Harbors, for the TRE benefits. GLH + Colossus is how I intend to support that REX, but first I want Sal out of the way, and a solid core of cities in my own starting territory. Mecca is a golden HE or IW site, Medina is a double-Holy city, and in my game, Damascus is on the coast to the SE of Sals island, not to the NE. Its close to where OTAK settled, actually.

Boy, if I had known we were playing these rounds with "balls to the walls" intentions to get the most instant-gratification we could and screw the future, I would have settled that 3S city and chopped every forest in sight. Then my numbers would look great, let me tell ya.

I dont mean to sound pissy, but I really dont think we are looking at the future at ALL here, and while those numerical comparisons are nice and pretty, they hardly tell the whole story. How many hammers per turn are we each putting out? How many GPP per turn? How much is a CR1 Axe worth compared to an un-promoted one? Sals in the way and Wonders dont pay INSTANT benefits. Even the Oracle, since I dont have Alpha yet. When I get it, how many beakers is that lousy 10 turns to build going to be worth? I am betting I can trade MC for every single tech I am missing, plus a few I am not up to yet, and still only have given it to 2 AIs.

 

[vale]

I love how settling the 3S city is described as screwing the future. I can see the forest chopping being bad long term but that city placement has at least as much long term positives for the long term (room for a fourth city on the island) as it has negatives (conflict at 13+ population).

I also would like to hear an estimated time of arrival for 13 healthy population in any relevant flood plains site. In my opinion, we are talking about the very long haul in that regards.

In the meantime the economy and growth of that city is better, it doesn't need culture to have access to good tiles. It can provide a nice commerce boost to the empire as a whole while still growing and producing it's infrastructure at a decent pace.

Clearcutting our forests I see as a long term problem, but settling an instantly productive both short term and long term city is not an issue in my opinion.

 

[vale]

Also:

The idea that a Prophet is somehow a bad great person to pop on this map is somewhat silly. Given that I'm not planning on lightbulbing anything, I would rank them:
Engineer - Settle bait given our industriousness.
Prophet - The poor man's engineer.
Scientist - Definitely want to get an academy in Berlin as soon as possible
Merchant - Well you see I settled it in my game, but settled GMs are pretty lame since they gain nothing from Bureacracy. Long term though, I still think the settled GM is better for us than a lightbulb or trade mission. (Hey that's funny, I totally sold my future short on my save, but that settled great person instead of the short term lightbulb gets completely ignored)

Dishononorable mention: Spy, Artist

 

[Bleys]

ETA on 13+ pop is not that far off, by Lib certainly, and even so, the sharing of so many tiles means both cities will have less than optimal choices. I dont see myself going for a 4th city on that island though, so maybe that is why I am so against it. I want to grow Berlin into the 10+ range as quickly as possible.

Its not that I am against Prophets, either, I like them early. Its late-prophets that are kind of weak. But I am likely to bulb or GA more than half my GPeople, and the tech line for GMs is superior to GProphets. Settling them isnt as powerful without Rep. I understand the long term benefits of settled GP, but thats a case where I prefer the instant gratification of a bulbed tech over the long-term, especially since we are going to be in an HR driven CE.

Not really interested in arguing the 3S thing anymore, either, I have made my feelings known, I think its a weak choice. If that wasnt the Capitol, or you were splitting 3 tiles instead of 6, then I would not be as against it, but it is the Capitol. Crowding the Capitol is just plain bad most of the time, especially when we are going to have such a strong Bur capitol for many many turns to come. Once I am into Bur, I generally stop whipping the Capitol, and try to grow it ASAP. I dont think I will have any trouble with growth or strength of the city on my chosen site, it will just take a bit longer to jump-start.

One more thing about GMs, they are excellent choices for settling in low-food cities. 2 settled GMs in the Marble City = another mine worked. With the location of Iron, that city can be a nice Production city with a couple settled GMs. Come to think of it . . .

(Hey that's funny, I totally sold my future short on my save, but that settled great person instead of the short term lightbulb gets completely ignored)

Why DID you settle it in Berlin? If there is one city that doesnt need the extra food, its Berlin. Why not shuttle it over and drop it into the Marble City?

 

[vale]

Very simple: Berlin is the best placed to take advantage of the gpt because it is the city that is most likely to be able to afford gold boosters. I think that settling him there is the best short term (+food is + production as long as we are in slavery, settling in Berlin gets him productive instantly instead of 3-4 turns in transit to his home) and medium term (Berlin is essentially the only city that will be able to afford the +gpt buildings in the medium)

Long term it may not be the best spot, but as usual, I will happily take a + position for the next 1500 years at the expense of my position during a space race or domination run.

+Food in Berlin is not wasted as long as we are converting food to hammers via slavery. It just isn't as good as pure hammers.

Giving the marble city the ability to work another mine is pretty unimpressive to me. I'm happy with it's slow growth/production at the moment and it is a city that requires little to no micromanagement which is a luxury.

 

[vale]

ETA on 13+ pop is not that far off, by Lib certainly, and even so, the sharing of so many tiles means both cities will have less than optimal choices. I dont see myself going for a 4th city on that island though, so maybe that is why I am so against it. I want to grow Berlin into the 10+ range as quickly as possible.

That very simply isn't true. You do know you can activate tiles for use by a city by clicking on the dead tile in its city management screen right?

There will never be a time where Berlin is denied the use of a tile because of Frankfurt unless it is specified by the player. So why do you keep harping on the fact that this placement hurts Berlin in any way which it doesn't at all. The discussion about Frankfurt's long term viability and its placement relative to the rest of our empire may be relevant, but Berlin is not hurt one iota.

 

[Bleys]

There will never be a time where Berlin is denied the use of a tile because of Frankfurt unless it is specified by the player. So why do you keep harping on the fact that this placement hurts Berlin in any way which it doesn't at all. The discussion about Frankfurt's long term viability and its placement relative to the rest of our empire may be relevant, but Berlin is not hurt one iota.

Part of my point is that Berlin is very close to using all 3 clams full-time. I tend to let my capitol GROW, and stop whipping once I have some more cities that can build Settlers. Sure, it will be a WHILE before Frankfurt runs out of tiles to work, but I disagree with it ever happening at all when it wasnt that urgent in the first place. Very shortly (before its first border pop, even) my "Frankfurt" will have access to at least one of the FPs, and will grow just fine with a farm on it til I cottage over it later. So you gain a few turns of growth on Frankfurt, but it wont be long before my version is superior to yours, in fact, with farms, I can work those hills I mined for the Marble city.

Giving the marble city the ability to work another mine is pretty unimpressive to me. I'm happy with it's slow growth/production at the moment and it is a city that requires little to no micromanagement which is a luxury.

Come on man, be serious. What kind of crap is that? I actually think you didnt consider popping it into Marble City, and settled it instantly out of reflex. Your excuse that "now I dont have to micromanage" is kind of hypocritical to what you have ahead of you in Frankfurt and Berlin, so I guess I say my choice of the western marble city is "so I have less micromanaging", and it works, right? Working another mine in a production city doesnt impress you? Faster growth in a slow growing city doesnt float your boat? LOL, Holy cow bro, how about "it may be better in the Marble City" instead some dismissive rhetoric, OK?

Your a strong enough player to know that working another mine is pretty big, when you are looking to scrape every speck of micromanagement you can get out of this whole Frankfurt thing.

+Food in Berlin is not wasted as long as we are converting food to hammers via slavery. It just isn't as good as pure hammers.

Thats just it, in fact, thats my WHOLE point here. We are just about done whipping in Berlin. I am a slavery addict, and even I stop whipping my Capitol when I am closing in on Bureaucracy, especially in a CE. Berlin has the Cottages I REALLY want to work, and soon will have a couple more, one on Plains, even. We have +food in Berlin. Lots of +food, so much +food we can grow it a few pop past the health cap if we want too (and I suspect we will).

Obviously we have very different styles vale, and again, I will attempt to end this discussion with "agree to disagree", ok? Going to bed now, just smoked Wang and Boudi and I'm putting a hurtin on Zara in this months LHC. Got 2 cities overlapping a total of 4 tiles of my Cap in that game, and its KILLIN me, LOL. Coulda done better.

 

[Nares]

We are just about done whipping in Berlin.

At which point 3S can stop working the clams. I think everyone is missing the real gem city here, the site I settled Munich in (3SE of Berlin). That will have the best production of any city that can be placed on marble island.

The consequence of this is that regardless of placement (3S or 5S1E), that city will be a garbage commerce city capped below 10pop.

My only priority with it after hitting 5pop would be aiming for a pop necessary for drafting. I believe I'm currently building a library in Cologne (my 3S city), and I regret it. I think instead I should have limited its structures to a granary, a lighthouse, a harbor, possibly a forge (possibly not) and possibly religious buildings (depending on AP, UoS and SM), and at some point possibly a wall/castle for the trade route. Perhaps a market for access to a merchant specialist to cap growth with.

But otherwise, very little, because the site is overall weak. 3SE is much better for production. I'm sacrificing Cologne for both the capital and Munich (3SE), once those sites have grown to work the necessary tiles. For a long time to come, however, it will be profitable. Ultimately its number of city maintenance cost, its colonial expenses maintenance cost and its contribution to civic upkeep expenses will make it a net loss, but not until I've expanded significantly further.

 

[vale]

Oh my goodness. Settling the GM somewhere besides the capital would have been totally insane. I would never waste him on a city that will suck regardless for the most part (marble). You can't seriously believe that working another mine down there is worth not strengthening the city which is going to be by far our only decent city for a long time.

You know what is making the other cities half decent? The fact that we have GLH and Currency. Otherwise they stink. Settling a merchant in one of them is throwing good money after bad and is completely insane. I would lightbulb or trade mission the GM away before doing that.

And you think Berlin is even close to the point where it can work all three improved clams full time without slavery? I think you are being overly optimistic about future health boosters. I'll admit slavery will be harder to utilize once we get Bureaucracy and have no convenient city sites for Settlers.