Monarchists' Cookbook I

[Diamondeye]

Heres the thing we need to remember about Sal, he aint Alex or Cathy. Once we decided to share his religion we made a loyal friend for life. He cant really hurt us, but he CAN be a PITA about it later. I am leaning toward taking him out. I say we please him now, but prep to dust him BEFORE LBs, and AFTER we get Maces. Theres a window there. Once he has LBs, we can forget him for a while, but if we CAN take him out, I see no reason not too, it will give us:

1. 100% certainty of access to the bigger island (right now, if we dont have open borders with him, we cannot trade with our cities over there)

2. A Double Holy City, including our own (and the potential future Wall Street site)

3. An awesome HE city (Mecca), with at least 6 hills and 2 clams to feed em.

4. And 1 less AI to deal with overall.

I like Sal, but lets face it, hes a religious nut-bird. I am with the hermit, I say we want him NOW. Hence the emphasis on Military techs in our games, I suppose.

The simpleton agrees , he's a fine friend, but it's still better to steamroll him

I do think that wonders are going to be driving our gpp for quite awhile. I think barring a disaster we should be able to nab the colossus early in the next round from most of the saves that don't have the colossus already. I was shocked to see it get built in one of the saves.

It's strange to see so much AI deviation in these games. I had no idea the AI would/could perform so differently! haha

I believe it was in my game it was taken the turn before I had MC... Sour, sour... But then again, someone popped an IND wonderwhore vassal, so, that may be my bad luck. My save is definately not the best for wonderwhoring anymore, much less because I missed Oracle and ToA aswell...

I'm guessing you're a simpleton, because all you did was quote me and then restate the quote in your own words, lol.

... Okay, does the fact I was unaware of this make me dumber or smarter?

I'm not discounting futurehermit's save or the argument his save has the strongest economic position, but I will discount your fuzzy math.
<snip (too many pics...?)>

I guess mine is around 4/56. Unsure of that though.

Mecca is the only city with Production potential, though the lack of food to work all the tiles (hills) makes me sad.

That's Sals' problem. For now.

His land isn't flowing with milk and honey, so it's not like we need anything he has to offer.

Killing off an AI simply because you can is not detrimental in any way. Especially not an AI that can be a PITA later, especially if he closes borders on you... Say Sal convert to Judaism...

Until there's a shrine, I feel there's no reason to go rushing in.

Land is power, Land is power, Land is power...

And also in response to others' comments about waiting for Saladin to build Wonders for us ... Saladin's personality has low emphasis on Wonders, so don't place bets on it.

Especially in my game, where there is an extra IND AI, we are not going to see any wonders @ Sals' place, imo

I agree the Colossus isn't stellar for this map, but denying the AI a cheap (for us) Wonder and getting gpp is nothing to scoff at.

Personally, I don't see how a Great Prophet is such a bad thing. Personally, I want Great Prophet in Berlin.

Again, agree. Especially if we should get our hands on a holy city

We've already agreed the map is very low in production. Settling a Great Prophet for the extra 2 (and 5 ) is awesome!

Yeah, that too...

I don't frown at Great Prophets, but I did really want a Great Merchant.

There, there, everything will be okay . BTW, your posts are a mess to quote, OTAKU... You seem to be writing tonnes

Oh my goodness. Settling the GM somewhere besides the capital would have been totally insane. I would never waste him on a city that will suck regardless for the most part (marble). You can't seriously believe that working another mine down there is worth not strengthening the city which is going to be by far our only decent city for a long time.

You know what is making the other cities half decent? The fact that we have GLH and Currency. Otherwise they stink. Settling a merchant in one of them is throwing good money after bad and is completely insane. I would lightbulb or trade mission the GM away before doing that.

And you think Berlin is even close to the point where it can work all three improved clams full time without slavery? I think you are being overly optimistic about future health boosters. I'll admit slavery will be harder to utilize once we get Bureaucracy and have no convenient city sites for Settlers.

I would not settle a GM unless he couldn't bulb, or my maintenance was higher than my BNP. Simple as that. That said, it's better settled in Berlin than in marbletown, imo. IF we can put the extra food to use. Since I don't use slavery, that is not an option for me.

Anyway, nice games all... I am kind of leaning towards Vale, Bleys or FutureHermit for bestball this round, any opinions?

 

[Nares]

futurehermit is bringing in 0 / 71 per turn.
r_rolo1 is bringing in 4 / 67 per turn.
OTAKUjbski is bringing in 1 / 61 :science per turn.
Bleys is bringing in 4 / 49 per turn.

Some of these numbers are off. Your own and r_rolo1's are off, though r_rolo1's is only off by 3bpt.

Bleys, I think you misunderstood what I had done when initially comparing GNP.

The 50% value I put out there in regards to futurehermit used 100% research as a basis.

Additionally, I made no effort to maximize commerce output in any of the cities in any of the saves, including my own. I suspect no one else did either.

I don't believe score padding will be an issue, and so I don't see why you should be sensitive to it and feel that others are engaging in it. If players take a serious look at the other saves, they should be able to instantly recognize such behavior.

That aside, I still like futurehermit's save. I like that he brought his cities online earlier, and can put more turns of development into them. That doesn't mean I support every decision he made; I actually dislike every single site he chose to settle.

But at this point, I really feel that four cities is too few.

OTAKU, I noticed you referenced the demographics screen as a comparison. I'm personally a bit leery of the GNP calculation, given that the cultural output from those wonders is currently inconsequential (and very likely will never make a difference in anything). It pads your numbers as much as you may claim comparing bpt@100%, as opposed to bpt@breakeven, pads my own or futurehermit's.

Diamondeye, you still haven't posted a save.

Bleys, with regards to the score padding issue, that reflects a more fundamental problem with the format, one that I've brought up before. It is very difficult to estimate where a save is heading. This round shows a more solid divide between players as to which approach is more adept.

What are some of the guiding factors players should be looking for when choosing a "best ball?"

Adaptability? For example, r_rolo1's save seemed the least concrete, or in other words, offered the greatest amount of flexibility when starting the second round.

Exploration? Once again, the issue of foreknowledge arises. OTAKU's save offers significantly more exploration than any of the others, just as Jerrymander's game (no save provided) offered more exploration in the first round.

Any other factor falls back on the issue of strategy, and the inability to portray the complete nature of a strategy, such as your own, when cut short into round-long segments.

 

[r_rolo1]

There is another issue : civic acess. Not all the saves ( in fact very few ) have access to what IMHO it is the Civic to adopt : HR .... the saves with HR will be able to reach Food cap pretty fast, a thing that combined with GLH will make a lot of diference.

I'm saying this because of ( shameless self promo ) my save... I agree it does not look much now, but , having HR and with a good stab to more wonder related health ( aqueduct + HG ), I bet I can put most of the cities in food cap before 1000 AD ( in capitol should be something like 15 without farms ( except the irrigation to hamburg one ) ). you can compare it easily with hermit's save : he has more land ( cities are power ,not land ) and more cities, but they will cap at pretty low sizes and will be weak in prod because of that... if he wants to tackle Saladin his capitol will do most of the work, because I doubt that most of the cities will be able to make more that a cat or 2 before the end of the war.

I agree with Bleys abourt the chopping..... i'm increasingly leaning with time to limit chopping in my games aand in maps like this it is even more true. Chopping here beyond the hills and the irrigation spot 1 NE of Berlin is crazy stuff IMHO.....

 

[Nares]

if he wants to tackle Saladin his capitol will do most of the work, because I doubt that most of the cities will be able to make more that a cat or 2 before the end of the war.

I feel like this is true for any save.

The only good secondary production site I found is one that only I settled.

Some of your other points are evident in my own game, including Hereditary Rule and the sparing of a few forests on each of the islands. One thing I noticed I researched and I don't believe anyone else even touched is Compass. I dropped the ball and have yet to start on harbors in most of my cities, but could get them up quickly should I swap builds.

To add to the civic difference, there seems to have been no effort to spread Hinduism, tech Monotheism, and adopt Organized Religion. I know I got a little lucky with religion spread, but I also have more cities than most players.

I had thought futurehermit was running OR when I first saw his upkeep, but on checking the save I found he had some hefty city maintenance cost (due in part to colonial expenses maintenance cost from three cities on marble island) and low civic upkeep expenses.

I'm also a bit confused by some players' decision to deny Saladin the religion swap when he asked. Why generate a -ve when you could generate a +ve and hit friendly with much more ease. In my own game, I converted immediately on spread, and I've been sitting just below friendly for what seems like ages. Which sucks, because I could have milked him for a tech or two by now had we hit friendly.

 

[Nares]

Given that the vote for the "best ball" won't be taking place until the end of the week, what are your thoughts on picking up other players' saves and playing them out for some number of turns (40 perhaps?)?

 

[futurehermit]

I personally don't like that idea. I think we need to decide on a best ball at this point and go with it.

I agree that HR is desirable. I gambled and lost in my game. In some other games, people either went for it or were able to trade for it. However, in my game I don't think it would take long to get it. I have a galley and 2 scouts headed to find new lands and as soon as I find the civ with Monarchy we can trade for it easily and adopt HR. A slight delay compared to some other games, but given that I am already in bureaucracy whereas other saves are still a ways (in some cases a long ways) off from CS I think it is an acceptable delay. I didn't plan on self-researching it but have enough techs for trading we can trade for it easily while teching through machinery to go to war.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Thanks to annoying RL issues, I won't be able to submit a save/report this round. Which is a pity, because I'm sure my save would've been the best.

hehe, I'm looking at how each of you guys has played this round, as well as the arguments you've been having, and I'm wondering how on earth you're going to decide on a best ball. "Mine!". "No, mine!!". "You're both wrong. Mine is the one!!!!". etc.

For what it's worth, based on the reports only (I'll try to have a quick look at the saves later on), vale and futurehermit stand out as having very strong positions.

vale has shown it is possible to spam wonders and achieve a good level of normal development - that's a really impressive handling of a limited production start.

While vale has been the production guru, futurehermit seems to be doing really well on the tech/beaker front, and is well positioned to get Maces in good time to stomp Sal. It looks to me like early CS was a very smart move.

The problem now, I think, is one of direction. In the last round, rolo's save was set up nicely for pretty much anything except an early rush on Sal. This time, however, I suspect that whichever save you choose is likely to dictate the best strategy for the next round to a considerable extent. Not that people won't be able to take a very different direction if they wish. But there'll be significant penalties for anyone going too far off the beaten track.

In any case, I don't see an easy consensus emerging this time. But, where the discussion's concerned, that's a very good thing imo.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@ ALL:

I'm sorry for the length of my posts ... I only have a certain amount of time to respond to all the day's posts before moving onto other things, so I have to respond to multiple pages of posts in just one of mine.

Sorry for the wall of text ...

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I can shuffle tiles in my save and get pretty close to the "top numbers" as well.

Nobody's shuffling tiles to rig the numbers, so I'd encourage you not to, either.

... Once I get to 4 or so Axes, I will go straight Cats and Galleys until I can make Maces ...

The main difference I'd like to point out between the Bleys and futurehermit saves is that while futurehermit is only 1 tech away from Maces with a strong research rate, Bleys is 2 techs away with a weaker research rate.

The Wonders futurehermit sacrificed weren't any from the "must have" list and so are inconsequential, IMO.

The fact he doesn't have a Forge is more than compensated by the fact he's already adopted Bureaucracy (after all, his Berlin is making 5 more per turn than yours)!

... I intend to try REX like mad and GROW my cities to 10 ASAP, head for Harbors, for the TRE benefits.

My sentiments exactly (except without the Sal bashing, lol).

Medina is a double-Holy city ...

In which save is Medina a double holy city?

The only saves Medina is even a single holy city in are OTAKUjbski and Vale (both Judaism).

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In either case, who cares? Having the Hindu holy city (even if it is currently shrineless) is an obvious bonus, because Hinduism is a major religion in every save.

However, having a second (or third) shrineless holy city to a minor religion doesn't do us any good. Not only will it cost us a Great Prophet to build the shrine, but it'll also cost us a lot of our scant to spread it all over the world.

If we want a shrineless holy city to a minor religion, all we have to do is play off either Vale or futurehermit's save, because Munich is the Confucian holy city in both of their saves. (Again, war averted.)

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If we're going to war, we need to do it to get something we don't already have -- not to get more of the crap we don't need.

I am betting I can trade MC for every single tech I am missing, plus a few I am not up to yet, and still only have given it to 2 AIs.

That's a bad argument, because being able to trade away techs to catch up to the other saves doesn't make your save equal to (or definitely not better than) those other saves.

The futurehermit, OTAKUjbski and Vale saves already have the techs you mention (and more) and will not have to trade anything to anybody for any tech. And if they do trade, it won't be to play catch up, it'll be to get ahead even further!

It's also worth noting:

• Bleys must self research Alphabet (10 turns)
• futurehermit already has Alphabet
• OTAKUjbski is ~8 turns from acquiring it from Saladin
• Vale must self research Alphabet (6 Turns)

Land is power, Land is power, Land is power...

Better Land is more Power.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I can't emphasize enough how much better the land beyond Saladin is than his own land.

The only thing Saladin really has to offer is a shrineless food negative (-3) holy city.

Everything else on his island (and even in his satellite cities) are things we either already have or can acquire more quickly and easily using a peaceful approach.

Again, agree. Especially if we should get our hands on a holy city

Again, the fact Mecca is a holy city means nothing until somebody builds the Kashi Vishwanath there. Personally, I'd rather give Saladin as much time as he needs to build it, because if he expends the Great Prophet to do it, it's like a "free GP" for us!

BTW, your posts are a mess to quote, OTAKU... You seem to be writing tonnes

Yeah ... well ... I tend to do that. I can type like 80 words per minute when I get serious, so if I spend too much time writing a post, it comes out more like a book.

I am kind of leaning towards Vale, Bleys or FutureHermit for bestball this round, any opinions?

And why not mine? I'm guessing there's something in particular you don't like?

I think futurehermit and Bleys' saves are geared towards war -- with futurehermit coming out on top.

I think Vale's is geared more towards peace.

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My save is also geared towards peace and in the aspect of peaceful expansion am ahead of all other saves. Not only have I explored most of the world, but I've also already settled in the "new world".

While other saves will need more Galleys and the 9⁺ Turns necessary to get them to the new world, I'm already there with two extra Galleys floating around.

My economy isn't quite as strong as Vale's, but I do presently have a slight tech lead on him.

The home cities can continue doing whatever they want (economic, mostly) while Cologne can pick up all expansion responsibilities.

IDK. I'm not saying my save is 'the best', because I'm obviously a little biased, but I'm surprised I'm not at least considered ...

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that had I settled Cologne on Marble Island (instead of waiting to settle it as Frankfurt), I'd likely have a much stronger economy and the Colossus in Berlin right now. Essentially, I prioritized getting a base of operations in the New World over the Colossus and the 'guaranteed city' on Marble Island. Frankfurt will come online quickly, and I'll be settling great uncontested land before the middle of Round 3 (instead of by the end as in other saves). If peaceful expansion is the goal, I think I'm ahead in that department!

Some of these numbers are off. Your own and r_rolo1's are off, though r_rolo1's is only off by 3bpt.

In r_rolo1's save, I continued 2 more turns to 10 AD to allow Currency to finish researching, which bumped him up by 3 .

In the OTAKUjbski save (as I stated), I settled Frankfurt on Marble Island and settled the Great Prophet in Berlin before noting the GPT & BPT (I probably should've also played it 2 more turns to 10 AD, but I didn't think about it at the time.)

In every case, I compared the numbers with non-negative (break even) GPT.

... a more fundamental problem with the format, one that I've brought up before. It is very difficult to estimate where a save is heading.

Thus why it's necessary in the Report or subsequent discussion for the player to explain what strategy they're implementing and why -- perhaps even why it's better than another player's chasing a similar goal.

What are some of the guiding factors players should be looking for when choosing a "best ball?"

Well, until we nail down the format a little more, the factors are extremely subjective -- and thus are likely to reflect the play styles of those voting.

I think the biggest factor is the map's overall strategy. For example, we can essentially attack Saladin now or expand around him and come back to it later.

Which strategy is decided upon by the team and "the peanut gallery" will ultimately decide how to judge each save (like based on techs and ability to quickly mount an offensive).

I think we need to decide on a best ball at this point and go with it.

I'm not saying we have to decide right now, since Diamondeye doesn't have to make the call until Thursday night.

But, I do agree that we need to stick to the format and choose only one 'best ball' to play off of for Round 3.


-- a lot of my 2

 

[r_rolo1]

After checking most of the saves, and aplying the same philosophy that I used in first round ( more options open from X save ) I would get Vale's save as my choice. He's more peace geared than Bleys and Hermit save, but I think it would be as easy to get a army of troops or settlers from there...... OTAKU save is also a good choice.

 

[Bleys]

First off, I also dont think anyone intentionally blew their wads for a quick-fix, but lets face it, subliminally there is a chance that it was in the back of our minds. Nothing major, little things, extra chopping, extra whipping, maybe. I apologize again for my pissy attitude, but its frustrating to try to explain certain "moves" in a way that can make others fully realize their potential.

I was mistaken about the double holy city. In my game, Mecca has Hindu, not sure where Judaism is, maybe Damascus, to the SE. Even so, I still say its worth it to take Sal out of the game. His land is between us and our "frontier". His capitol is a better production city than any we have, even if there isnt enough food to work ALL the Mines. Our capitol would make a strong GP farm, his a strong HE city, and we find a new spot for our own Palace as soon as we can reasonably do so.

I think futurehermit and Bleys' saves are geared towards war -- with futurehermit coming out on top.

See, I disagree with this. I have forests, forges and Barracks, he doesnt (he has 2 barracks IIRC, my 3rd is near done), not to mention 2 pretty strong Wonders (the only "essential" Wonder was the GLH, but ToA and Colossus certainly dont suck).

I also disagree with his choice to settle ON the Copper. That is a pretty strong tile, and we certainly will have food to work a 5H mine, I already do. I would rather that city be 1E if not 1SE to save the grassland (my choice of the Copper City on the grassland is "sup-par" as well, but the 1E+2S plains site means another overlapped tile with the Capitol, making the 3S city even more crowding).

I am also a bit annoyed that Teching is being analyzed when some players have had an opportunity to trade and some havent. Apple and Oranges here. If I was to meet an AI next turn willing to trade me Monarchy and Alpha (plus, probalby) for CoL and MC, I would be a a MUCH more powerful position tech-wise. The fact that they met an AI willing to trade Alphabet before others did makes it harder to compare "tech status" at this time. We will all have the opportunity to make trades, and likely sooner than later, there are other AIs coming into the picture, shouldnt we wait to see who ends up "ahead" after we have all had trade opportunities? I am 9 turns from Monarchy, and then planned CS, with a reasonable shot at a GE for Machinery. future is 50 turns from a Great Person, and has no chance for an Engineer. I am 6 turns from mine, with a 25% shot at a GE, and 50% for a GM. Some have already generated their 2nd GP, and will easily have a 3rd before future gets his 2nd. Now, as I said, later GPs may be better than early ones, but still, overall, there is a significant difference in GPPs, not just a small one.

I dont deny that all the saves look good, and all have flaws, and its difficult to choose. After all, this isnt the Deity or Immortal Cookbook, its Monarch, a level where game flaws are expected, but not usually major. future's save IS solid, but he chose expansion over wonders and forges, and used his forests to do it. I prefer the Wonders and Forges and a few forests for later, myself, maybe thats just me. I actually like OTAKs save more than my own if we choose "Peace with Sal", because he has the Wonders and a foothold on the other continent. That cost him some time and growth, but it was a worthwhile gambit. He also has a stronger GPP generator than I do right now, and if we do move the cap and turn Berlin into a GP farm, its that much better for it already.

I really really dislike the 3S of Berlin city deadhorse, so saves with that city dont get my vote. Rolo didnt explore, not sure I understand that theory given how poor our land is. Finding new land to start moving toward seemed like a solid move that set. OTAK explored a LOT, which is right in line with his "lets ignore Sal and move past him, look at all this land" theory of the game.

So my vote is as follows. If War with Sal, me. Sal has a city near where OTAK founded Cologne in his game that needs capturing. That, plus the Barb City (coastal) plus 1 settler of our own will give us the foothold we need over there. I dont see a need to put more cities on Sals island, just take his 2 (both coastal) and be done with it.

If keep the peace, OTAK. Wonders = GPPs. He has a city on the new frontier already. He has a strong set-up for Berlin, and a settler ready to found the Western Marble area. I would chop the forest he is standing on into a Forge in Hamburg, myself.

I wish Nares had played the Best Ball, because his game is also very strong. He has befriended Toku, and can trade techs there without worrying about them being spread all over the place to other AIs. Still, he has GPP generation problems currently (note, this isnt a BAD thing, either, later GPs may be slightly stronger than early ones in some ways, but still, his will come slow, like future's) I wish we could mix and match the best of each save, LOL, like Nares diplomacy, my Forges, OTAKs wonders and futures cities and techs.

This round is another case of "if I had 10 more turns, things would look WAY different" though. I get another GP, another tech, possibly meet a trade partner or even gift Myst to Toku in the hopes he will trade me Alpha, etc etc. I have no plans to tech Alpha, I will trade for it, my plans are Monarchy followed by CS followed by Machinery if I didnt get a bulb. I still like blowing Sal away though, and I like my save to do it.

 

[Solon70]

That aside, I still like futurehermit's save. I like that he brought his cities online earlier, and can put more turns of development into them. That doesn't mean I support every decision he made; I actually dislike every single site he chose to settle.

But at this point, I really feel that four cities is too few.

I agree that four cities in 10 AD is not as much as you'd typically like. Part of it has to do with the cumbersome nature of island starts and the fact that our land is relatively unattractive.

But setting that aside, if you're from the school who says the next city ought to be past Sal in order to grab some good land and resources before it's too late, you're going to be glad you aren't too far stretched on the home front.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I 'squoze' in some time, lol ...

(OK guys ... I swear this is my last long post.)

... its frustrating to try to explain certain "moves" ...

It's good we're getting in depth analysis of the nitty-gritty, but I think it's being done at the expense of overall, general strategy.

What matters most isn't necessarily why things were done but rather where things are going ... what is the player's strategy? ... is the strategy sound? ... how well does the save reflect that strategy? ... etcetera ... etcetera ...

See, I disagree with this. ...

I forgot about the Copper city, which also made me go .

You've convinced me I might be wrong in my assessment but not entirely.

I have to admit; I didn't think about the implications of a GM or GE [in 6 Turns].

A GM can bulb Civil Service after Alphabet and Monarchy, and a lucky GE can bulb Machinery right now! Even an unlucky GP can bulb Theology (for Theocracy and trading fodder) or be settled.

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While Bleys will be making many Axes, futurehermit will be making few Maces. It's probably "six" vs "a half dozen" so I'll drop that argument.

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However, war with Saladin will strike a heavy blow to our economy, since we're relying on him and the civs beyond him for our lucrative trade routes. The futurehermit save has a tech advantage which is more apt to better absorbing the blow.

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IDK

I am also a bit annoyed that Teching is being analyzed when some players have had an opportunity to trade and some havent.

If if's and's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

We knew this would happen even before starting this series. We can't judge the saves on what could've been. We can only look at where we are and where we're going. (It's kinda the same thing with me ... if not for my two lucky hut pops, there's no way my save would have any competitive merit this round.)

What is certain, though, is players with a tech lead will not be trading to catch up.

That being said, I did take into consideration futurehermit traded for IW and Alphabet (something we'll all [be able to] do shortly) ... but, even considering that, he still has Civil Service on all of us! The only way Bleys can match it is to pop a lucky GE (~25%) and bulb Machinery.

IDK ... given some of the other aspects of Bleys vs futurehermit, it might be worth it to gamble on the :gpp: ... after all, there's basically a 2-in-3 chance of getting a Great Person on the way to Maces.

If I was to meet an AI next turn willing to trade me Monarchy and Alpha (plus, probalby) for CoL and MC ...

Let's face it, though ... that's an unlikely scenario (if not for any reason than the foreknowledge from my save of the locations of the other AI's).

At best, João might be researching Alphabet, but without the to prove it, you can't count that chicken.

We will all have the opportunity to make trades, and likely sooner than later ...

I think the closest we can get is to make our best, most educated guess at whether past trades were worth it and how soon future trades are likely to occur.

(For example, even though I don't have Alphabet, I know Saladin will have it in 7 turns and be willing to trade for it. Likewise, I have trade-worthy relationships with 3 AI's, so it's most likely I will have the most lucrative trading opportunities in the upcoming turns.

Those things can be presumed upon, IMO.)

I would chop the forest he is standing on into a Forge in Hamburg, myself.

Damit! That's a GREAT idea. I mismanaged my Worker earlier and lost a couple turns down there ... if I had thought about it, I could've easily chopped that forest before Settling.

I also messed up with one of my Galleys. The one that dropped off the Cologne Settler should've stuck around for future ferrying opportunities. He'll still get there in time, but it was wasted turns nevertheless.

Finally, I messed up by not adopting HR 26 Turns ago when I popped it. I totally forgot João, Suleiman and Louis XIV all have HR as their favourite civic. I could be at Pleased with all of them by now if I'd had my head on straight.

 

[Artichoker]

When you guys decide on the "best ball", I have a suggestion.

Take the number of participants, and divide it by 3. That's the number of votes each player gets. Highest number of votes wins.

Example:

6 participants
6/3 = 2

So, every player gets 2 votes, and the one with the most votes gets selected. It saves you from the trouble of everybody voting for themselves.

 

[futurehermit]

re: Copper city: I didn't like settling on the copper, but I based it on two considerations:

1) I want to put a city on the edge of Saladin's island because it has a seafood resource

and

2) I found out there is no seafood for the 1-tile island north of our capital and I decided that I could put a workshop there later for production. Now of course there are also more tiles I am missing out on on the mainland, so that point is moot to a certain extent. It was mainly point 1) that I was going off of and I wanted to minimize tile overlap (not that overlapping coastal tiles make that much difference).

So, yeah, 1E probably would've been fine, but until we chain irrigate in some farms, that city can't really work that tile reliably anyways, so I didn't see it as a huge deal. *shrug*


re: peace or war:

I favour war. Peace leaves us strung out in terms of defending our terrain and also leaves us low on the power graph. In contrast, war gives us a large, experienced army that we can use to bash more heads.

And once we have our military needs met we can still send out settlers to extend our empire that way as well.

My rule in my games though is that if I have an AI that close that early they are gone by the middle ages.

 

[Bleys]

I am glad that some of these things are being considered. future IS closer to Maces than me, early Bureaucracy is pretty huge, thats why I intend to chase it ASAP once I get HR. I am not trying to be negative or dis him, its just coming out that way. I wanted HR first to grow Berlin past the health limit as far as possible while teching CS, giving even more punch to the switch to Bur. We WILL need Cats to take Sal, no doubt of it whatsoever. 5 Axes to take out the Barb City while I tech CS. Of course, if I dont get the GE pop, I am basically even FARTHER from Maces, and that will hurt, but a GM would get CS if I had Alpha and Monarchy, which I am sure WILL happen in the next 10 turns (self-tech Monarchy, trade for Alpha).

We all have solid, strong games, yet they all have flaws. Heck, with my save, we could even do a "fake war" with Sal, take his city over where OTAK founded Cologne, then give him peace and as long as we have his religion, he will still love us, even with the "-1 You Declared War on us!".

I can guarantee that I will have Alpha the instant I see someone other than Toku "Has techs for trade". I have CoL and MC as trade bait. I am going to try NOT to trade MC if I can, I dont like giving away forges, the AI loves them more than I do. But my game didnt produce that guy yet, while some other games did. Nares has a great idea, gift Myst to Toku, gift him a Clam, too, maybe, then get his techs.

I think we all have flawed city placements as well. The 3S spot is growing on me a bit as I run the numbers, but I do think the "post-Industrial Age turns" are nearly as important as these. I like the Marble site with a couple settled GMs for an additional mine or two, because I fully intend to build a Market and Grocer there, especially now that I know where the Iron is. I see no need for immediate "max settling" our own islands, either. Later, sure, settle them, once we have cities across the water, the trade routes + Colossus cash will support them even more. I prefer the plains Copper City to my Grassland one, by a LOT, my city sucks, but honestly, I like Vale's (I think) grass hill next to the Copper the best of all. I was thinking about minimizing Ocean in my placement, and having 1st ring Copper for the Colossus that I wanted to get started, and having access to an early farm.

 

[futurehermit]

I think we're being pretty hard on each other in terms of city placement. We have crap land, there are no great city locations. It's hair-splitting pretty much.

p.s., I think for future rounds we should really consider not being able to vote for ourselves. It would be nice if this was more cooperative and less self-promoting to get our own saves chosen.

 

[Artichoker]

I think we're being pretty hard on each other in terms of city placement. We have crap land, there are no great city locations. It's hair-splitting pretty much.

p.s., I think for future rounds we should really consider not being able to vote for ourselves. It would be nice if this was more cooperative and less self-promoting to get our own saves chosen.

It seems like 2 votes per participant, with the rule that you can't vote for yourself looks appropriate. Also, when voting you should give a short description of why you voted that way.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I just had a very quick look at one of the games (Bley's one, I think), to see what the land is like beyond our little corner.

I can see why OTAKUjbski is turning his eyes to the big island beyond Sal - there's a lot of good stuff there.

However, I also noticed that there are two fish off the south Arabian coast, which could be used to power a second city to take advantage of Mecca's hills. Between the two of them, we'd have a very solid military production zone.

On a side note, even if a peaceful path is chosen, it'll still be necessary to make decent investment in military before too long. Low power ratings mean getting bullied, and there's always the possibility of unavoidable diplomatic problems (random events, the AP, and inter-AI wars can all mess up a sound diplomatic plan). Even though maps like this don't demand the large armies you generally need for a pangea or continents, and there's little chance of our getting conquered wholesale, a DoW from a powerful AI could cause all manner of problems if we're unprepared (weak guys tend to get dogpiled, remember).

And, on that subject, it looks like naval units are going to be just as important as land forces on this map. Our food, our trade routes, and our resource supply lines may need to be protected as the game goes on. And the ability to project power across the seas to interfere with a dangerous AI could come in very handy at some point.

 

[Bleys]

I think we're being pretty hard on each other in terms of city placement. We have crap land, there are no great city locations. It's hair-splitting pretty much.

I agree, thats why I am not trying to make a BIG deal of it, other than my personal grudge, which is lifting as I take vale's point about "when will Western Marble hit 13+". We all made less than perfect choices, mostly because there wasnt any no-brainers at all. NONE of the cities are great, there were no "everyone is going to settle here" spots.

p.s., I think for future rounds we should really consider not being able to vote for ourselves. It would be nice if this was more cooperative and less self-promoting to get our own saves chosen.

I agree to an extent, but I feel that we all need to be able to make our "thought processes for the future" clearer.

I thought there would be some acknowledgment of my Forge/Barracks combos + Construction + ALL the Wonders, instead I got "you only have 4 cities, and your beaker output sucks".

Well, yeah, it does, I built Forges so that ALL the future buildings will go down faster, as well as our army. Libraries and Cats take hammers. Forges make every hammer, be it from a mine, a whip, or a chop, worth more. I tend to go Monument--->Granary--->Forge in every new city I make with an IND leader, except Louis, I skip the Monument. Slightly slower now in return for much better later, with a Mine and a Food source being my first tile improvements. Some people wait on Forges, maybe the thought is they arent worth it at 2 or 3 pop, I dont know. I rarely wait for them, especially if I plan on whipping, I like getting 11 extra hammers per pop whipped as fast as I can. Of course, with an IND leader, I am generally in a Mids-backed SE, I tend to avoid heavy-water maps, and want that Engineer, so /shrug, I suppose we all play differently. I could have skipped 2 of the forges and gotten 2 more settlers out. Or skipped the forges and barracks and gotten 3. What criteria are we making our decisions on, the now or the later?

 

[futurehermit]

I play the game from more of a macro-perspective. I don't focus on the details overmuch (which is why I'm bad at whipping). I've always been a "good macro, bad micro" strategy gamer. I'm more laid back in my gaming and as long as the big picture is progressing nicely, I'm happy. The details make it feel more like work to me, but that's just me, to each his own of course.

So, I evaluate the saves from that perspective as well. If it looks to me like the grand package the save presents is taking us in a direction that I think looks strong, I will get behind it. If I have to look into nitty-gritty details to see the value of a save, I might miss it (doesn't mean it's not there).

I also feel like epic predisposes us to warfare because that gamespeed gives us an advantage. So, I'm less inclined to favour peaceful proposals for the next round.