[R&F] Mongolia First Look

[SammyKhalifa]

get them to attack someone else instead

 

[shaglio]

get them to attack someone else instead

. . . as long as their target has a pike army rather than a horse army.

 

[Thormodr]

Mongolia! Been waiting for this!

They don’t look too bad on first glance.

Was kind of hoping for Khutulun or Kublai Khan, to be honest, but Chinggis Khan will do.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

. . . as long as their target has a pike army rather than a horse army.

maybe they'll go hit their preset kill limit or get broke holding such a big army

 

[Tiger Genocide]

Funny that Keshiks have 5 (or even 6) movement and 2 range, because it was considered OP in Civ 5. I thought they never wanted such a unit again when Saka horse archers with 1 range were announced.
They might end up being the best unique unit again.

How useful do you consider the movement boost for civilians in formation? Most support units come too late to be combined with them IMO, and great generals have 4 movement already.
Guess speeding up some battering ram might turn out helpful, but I cities will probably fall fast enough when hit by a few hit and run attacks from keshiks (which they can't retaliate!).
If you need to accompany a settler they're amazing of course, but most good spots will be gone by then.
You might use them to carry your builders around during peacetime, but i wouldn't consider it essential except in very spread out empires.

I thought about this too. Might be worth keeping one in all eras, even when you have tanks, so that you can ferry around various units. Spotter ballons for the artillery, the medics, settlers and builders, combat engineers, and even great generals. Oftentimes you can forget to bring one along, or in some cases, you need a quick airstrip to get some bombers or jets closer to the fight, but even if you gold buy an engineer, it could take 10 turns or more to get him closer to the city you have a space to build an airstrip. If you upgrade all but one, you will always have an "transportation humvee" that is not super squishy, until the Information Era.

Sometimes I really need something like a settler or a engineer during a tough war and allies or civs, I do not want to declare war on, are in between me and the civ I am fighting, and I need either an airstrip or siege city, so that I can upgrade my troops during a fight. I should probably just do a better job of bringing one everytime, but hindsight is always 20/20 right?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah, I might have oversimplified, but I still don't see the connection with the in game ability, even their explanation does not fully convince me

The Mongolians sleep inside their tents while the horses run around, since they never kept them in stables and would make since with the replacement. At least that is my logic, and calling a single building ger camp might of not made since.

 

[PhilBowles]

Maybe one of the strongest Civ ever seen.

Better than Scythia, Mongol can rush by chariots if not having enough horses. The bonus is too strong.

Although I'd like to say the diplo visibility actually does not bonus that much since embassys are destroyed when the war being declared. maybe 1 level from trading posting is all? Are trading posts destroyed too?

Also, Mongol wars are much quicker (better than Persia) since battering rams move at 6 speed...

I'd like to say it has a strength of Persia+Scythia, shall be ranked at 1~3( Aztec, Sumeria)

I really think you underestimate how valuable it is to be able to build the horses, research the associated technologies, and fund your army.

Once they have all of this in place the Mongols will be solid, and thematically I love what they do - a military civ based on speed isn't something the game's really done before that I can think of, and it fits both the Mongols and Genghis specifically perfectly. But they have exactly nothing that helps them get to that point - no bonus production from their building, no unique improvement, no resource boost or boost to the speed at which they create units or research, beyond a trade post bonus that - unlike Rome - only comes online once you've built trade units, and the chance of getting lucky with cavalry attacks. I'm struggling to think of a single other civ that has none of those.

 

[DWilson]

Can the Keshik move after shooting? That was probably the most significant tool it had in V, and while still really good, it's definitely weaker without it.

 

[KayAU]

Here's my take:

Leader ability - Mongol Horde

• +3 combat strength to all cavalry class units
• Chance to capture defeated enemy cavalry class units

A very solid ability. The +3 combat strength isn't huge on its own, but it synergizes with everything else, adding even more pain to the pain the Mongols are already going to inflict. The unit capture is pretty great, and judging by the video, it looks like it is going be a pretty high chance. In the video, the number was 59%.


Unique ability - Örtöö

• Instantly creates a trading post when creating a trade route to a city
• Trading post increase diplomatic visibility with civilization
• +3 combat strength for each level of visibility

Very powerful ability. Getting at least one level of visibility for the first +3 is easy thanks to the trading post bonus, and once you get Printing, that's another +3. Once spies enter the game, another +3 is available for a small effort, using a spy mission which can not fail. Finally, the Great Person Mary Katherine Goddard, which is pretty useless for all other civs, is amazing for the Mongols, as she gives another +3.

This is a potentially devastating ability. It is also very cool thematically. I like it a lot.


Unique Infrastructure - Ordu

• All cavalry class units trained in city gain +1 movement

Pretty straight forward, good ability. Synergizes well with everything else.


Unique Unit - Keshig

• 30 melee
• 40 ranged
• 5 movement (6 if trained with Ordu)?
• 2 range
• Shares speed with unit in formation
• Available at Stirrups, doesn't replace Knight

Because the Mongols were not already terrifying enough, they are given a great UU as well. This unit is extremely mobile, and has strength and range like a Crossbowman, plus a few boosts from the other Mongol abilities. I am rarely excited by UUs, but I will make an exception for this one, because it combines mobility, range, and strength. It is available early enough to make a difference, and it even has a utility purpose outside war, as it can lend its speed to other units. I might even consider keeping some of these around in later eras, just to help move civilians around faster.


I am usually not excited about war-focused civs, but I have to admit, this one both looks and sounds great. All abilities are strong, thematically appropriate, and synergize very well. In terms of power, I am not sure if they are stronger than Scythia, but they are certainly a worthy rival in the same domain, and that is saying something. Scythia does get full use of their abilities earlier, but by the time Printing and Stirrups are invented, the Mongols are going to be tough to deal with.

If these guys spawn close to me, they will probably be an early target.

One possible weakness of the Mongols, is that they are a one-note civ. They are vulnerable to anti-cavalry, being denied access to horses, and of course, the AIs tactical stupidity.

 

[liv]

Does not replace knight means you cannot upgrade to them, I assume.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Side note: can you capture UU? Like, can I capture a Sumerian war cart? Or a Cossack? Because a Mongolian Cossack would be pretty sweet...

If it's anything like the Sea Dog then it can capture UUs, which can capture Norway's Longship. (I just played Victoria and captured a grand total of 4-5 ships. A new record!)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Does not replace knight means you cannot upgrade to them, I assume.

Yes, which is Mongolia's big weakness, in my opinion. by the time they get a whole bunch of Keshigs up and running, anyone with tech parity should have beelined Pike&shot to counter them. And the Keshigs won't have any promotions, unlike all the other civs' generic units, which should be well-promoted by then.

 

[Ondolindë]

Yes, which is Mongolia's big weakness, in my opinion. by the time they get a whole bunch of Keshigs up and running, anyone with tech parity should have beelined Pike&shot to counter them. And the Keshigs won't have any promotions, unlike all the other civs' generic units, which should be well-promoted by then.

Weakness, yes, but very fair for other civs and it is very much needed in order to survive them once they have pretty much taken you to a dark age by force and you cling by a thread hoping to bounce back with a heroic age and all its advantages, crossing fingers and sweating up a storm that is.

 

[Art Morte]

That ranged UU with massive movement is too OP, imo. Already crossbowmen with 3 movement when near a general is great, but now you have basically crossbowmen with 5 movement. I think this is going to be the most OP unit in the game.

 

[KayAU]

Yes, which is Mongolia's big weakness, in my opinion. by the time they get a whole bunch of Keshigs up and running, anyone with tech parity should have beelined Pike&shot to counter them. And the Keshigs won't have any promotions, unlike all the other civs' generic units, which should be well-promoted by then.

It is a bit of a weakness, yes, but I still think the Keshigs are going to be a terror. They will have combat bonuses from other sources, and as fast ranged units, they can get experience quickly, without having to get too close. The Mongols should have some promoted melee cavalry units from earlier eras to help protect the new Keshigs, if necessary.

 

[Cerilis]

Well, they are supposed to be a terror.

 

[pietro1990]

Big , sausageman

 

[steveg700]

Yes, which is Mongolia's big weakness, in my opinion. by the time they get a whole bunch of Keshigs up and running, anyone with tech parity should have beelined Pike&shot to counter them. And the Keshigs won't have any promotions, unlike all the other civs' generic units, which should be well-promoted by then.

"Look at all those pikes. I bet they have a far reach."

"A reach as far as our composite bows?"

"Oh, no. They'll never touch us. Let's go ahead and kill them."

Don't let the horses fool ya. Remember, they're ranged units. Anti-Cav doesn't counter range.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

That ranged UU with massive movement is too OP, imo. Already crossbowmen with 3 movement when near a general is great, but now you have basically crossbowmen with 5 movement. I think this is going to be the most OP unit in the game.

In all fairness, the Mongolian Army WAS historically the OP force of the late Medieval Era. Just ask anyone from the coast of China to the plains of Poland, including the Moslem states of the near east...

To counter them, you need to do some of the things already mentioned in this Thread:
1. Be on an island like Japan - better yet, be on an island with really bad storms at the right time - Whoops! No Storms in Civ VI you may still be S*****d.
2, Have lots of marshy, wooded country with the best fortifications you can build, manned by lots of crossbowmen. Whatever you do, DO NOT try to face Mongols with knights in the open field - just ask the European Knights at Legnica or Mohi, if you can find any survivors to talk to...
3. Be Far Far Away and in Jungles - it took the Mongols quite a while to get into Southeast Asia, and they never quite conquered all of it.
4. Get Gunpowder. Get effective gunpowder-powered small arms and effective tactics to use them with anti-cavalry forces. The new Pike and Shot Unit may be designed precisely to save our sorry silicon-shoving butts from Mongols...

Finally, a note on Unit Names. Civ has Never been consistent with this: witness Swordsmen, Spearmen and Warrior units, all titles of individuals, versus Legion, which is a unit of 3 - 5000 individuals. Keshig or Kashick was a unit of 'special' guard troops, but being a unit title is noting in Civ games, the problem is that it was only one unit out of the entire army, and not really equipped any differently (as far as we know) from the rest of the force.
A much better 'Unit Title' if you have to use one for the Mongols, would be Tuman, a unit of 10,000 men that was the standard Mongol 'Division', and appears to be unique to them, unlike all the variations of 'Ordo' or 'Horde' that was used by just about every Turkic-speaking group on a horse from Sogdiana to modern Turkey.

And finally, as for having both Keshigs and Knights, that is extremely accurate historically: the average composition of the Mongolian horsemen was about 60% horse archers and 40% armored lancers - knights without the pedigree. And when you think about it, 3 Keshigs with 2 Knights between them and the target is not a bad combat formation in game terms, and allows the Knights to finish off anything hit by the Keshigs before they even get a chance to counterattack...

 

[steveg700]

In all fairness, the Mongolian Army WAS historically the OP force of the late Medieval Era. Just ask anyone from the coast of China to the plains of Poland, including the Moslem states of the near east....

Well, historical simulation is not what Civilization is about. It serves the needs of a game, and that means some semblance of balance.