1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Mongolia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Der_Zorn_gottes, Feb 29, 2016.

  1. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Mongolia has a really strong MId-game, but they're not particularly great early or late. The bonuses they get from taking city states fall off as the game goes on and I've been able to consistently beat them out later.
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,259
    Location:
    Venice, California
    I recall Gazebo saying they perform well, but not outside the continuum.
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,361
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    You don't get CS units when you conquer a CS. Only Venice gets that.
     
  4. Y.O.

    Y.O. Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    113
    Unless this is different for the AI, Mongolia doesn't get free units when annexing a CS through tribute (at least as a player). Playing on emperor, I find myself able to annex CS quite easily, but I think the risk of losing a potential trade partner, and having Civs get mad at you for doing so, should be enough to make you think about whether the heavy tribute is a good option or not. The only thing I would say is if possible, maybe make the "recently demanded tribute," modifier apply for all known CS? Right now, I think it's based on a case-by-case basis, but I don't know if that would nerf both Mongolia and the Zulu more than they need to be. In terms of an AI, I don't see Mongolia's UA as one having no counterplay. From my experience, Mongolia usually racks up quite a few enemies through its CS conquering, so if you really want the CS to be saved, denounce, declare war, and liberate the CS. I play on emperor, so of course playing on an easier difficulty will yield better results, but I don't see how one couldn't do the same on higher difficulties.
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,540
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Didn't we have a similar discussion about tributes and difficulty level?
     
  6. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,500
    My mistake re: free units. As for the rest, I went back through the thread and saw I posted similar concerns about Mongolia a while ago, so I'll sit this discussion out.
     
  7. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    457
    Sorry, so the cs units disappear out of nowhere?

    I dont really see the warmonger penalty for annexing cs effect mongol much. Since in my game, he easily has 2 or 3 friends(in standard size).
     
  8. Y.O.

    Y.O. Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    113
    So I'm currently playing a game where Mongolia annexed about 7 city states before the majority of the civs even got to the classical era, on top of settling. This could just be a perfect case scenario, as Genghis spawned on a continent filled with city-states, and the only other civ on the same continent are The Huns, but it seems a bit crazy that Mongolia was able to jump out as fast as they have. Will have to see if The Huns manage to take some cities, but I think the UA needs to be re-evaluated, or at least made more difficult for forcibly annexing cities.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,540
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Mongolia is taking half the states in my two last games in King.
     
  10. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,500
    Whenever I play with manually selecting the AI Civs, I dis-select Mongolia because of the CS grab. In my last game on Immortal, Mongolia (quite far away) grabbed 3 CS before turn 70 (standard speed) even though I declared war immediately on them around turn 20 when I met them. Still didn't distract them or slowed them down. So until changes have been made, I'll be playing without Mongolia whenever possible.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,256
    Location:
    Beijing
    I tried Mongolia after this thread last had activity and was really dissapointed. Honestly I find annexing CS like that to be a drawback as a human. I would just conquer the CS if I wanted it, and I actually did manually conquer one because I wanted the yields for kills and experience on my units. Not having access to normal heavy tribute is a really significant downside

    The AI however seems to be just fine annexing as many as it can and snowballs like crazy. On higher difficulties AI has so many units that heavy tribute is basically always possible for them. As soon as the CS reach enough population to be heavily tributed you can expect them to fall like dominoes
     
  12. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,259
    Location:
    Venice, California
    This sounds really problematic. Have there been changes to the Mongols since Gazebo's last stamp of approval of their performance?
     
  13. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    402
    For what it's worth, in my games Mongolia always annexes so many CS enough to make his empire extremely unhappy (-20) and then everyone else just kicks his ass anyway.

    Infact I see this scenario with a lot of warmongers who just cripple themselves (Rome, Aztecs)
     
  14. StugLife

    StugLife Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2016
    Messages:
    27
    I kind of dislike the instant annex ability, seems somehow counterintuitive when you already have all those troops around the city state and could just capture it the old fashioned way anyway and gain some experience / yields while doing so. I´m wondering if there was a specific reason for getting rid of the combat strength bonus against city states?

    I feel like the original bonus against city states and then some yields upon city state capture would fit the mongol theme quite nicely. Maybe +1 population in capital or +5 exp to all units per capture or something along those lines. Thoughts?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  15. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    Well. Maybe your army doesn't have any siege-weapons?
     
  16. kawyua

    kawyua Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    176
    I think mongolia is always a nice thing to see. At least, it is more preferable than the peaceful civs I see all the time. They can do something! They can take another ai's capital all by themselves! I think that's fun to see. It makes every game with them just a bit more dynamic in terms of friendships and priorities. I'm of the opinion that they are fine and alright as a snowbally civ because its not dependent on science. Ah, I have nightmares of runaway science ai civs.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  17. Y.O.

    Y.O. Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    113
    I don't have an issue with the ability itself, but I don't think the intention is for it to happen as easy as it does. Even as a player, I'm able to annex city state after city state after a certain point, and the apparent AI bonuses just makes it ridiculously easy for the AI to do. I think this has more to do with the city states themselves than Mongolia. They don't tend to have large armies, making tributes quite easy. When I'm playing as the Zulu, it's the same way, but the city states are least fair game. Mongolia taking all those CS as early as he did makes it difficult to liberate.
     
  18. kawyua

    kawyua Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    176
    Guess we'll have to reconvene after the 25 base points to tribute city states. I don't think it'll change much with the ai though. hm
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,256
    Location:
    Beijing
    The annexing ability is cool and it does have its uses, its just that heavy tribute is really good and not having access to it is a major drawback. Here is an idea

    Mongolia must wait until city states reach a certain size before he can demand heavy tribute (its around 5 but I forget exactly how much. What if we raised that amount for annexing to like 10 population. This would prevent the AI from going crazy with tribute early on (he can still grow big easily, its just comes a little bit later). In exchange for this small nerf, Mongolia gains access to normal heavy tribute (for yields) as well.

    Thoughts?
     
  20. ashendashin

    ashendashin Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Messages:
    951
    I'd prefer steadily increasing requirements along with an entirely separate annexation option. Not because I view Mongolia to be too powerful, but due to the AI picking Statecraft when all the CSs on their side of the world are gone. Dunno if that's feasible.
    Or maybe a simple cooldown would do. Something to keep a few on their starter continent would help for early tribute and later options.
     

Share This Page