[NFP] Monopolies and Corporations Game Mode Discussion Thread

[bbbt]

2.) He was playing with Heroes/Legends on, and was able to grab both the resource planting hero and the resource eliminating hero. Without these, he would have had to reallocate a LOT of his resources away from faith and tourism generation and towards military conquest in order to achieve the level of luxury monopolizing that he had.
3.) While this is a fair tactic and quite achievable on deity, he had both secret societies and heroes on, went Voidsingers and took the Reliquaries belief. That belief may now need to be nerfed, as it originally gave a strong (300%) bonus towards something that was extremely difficult to come by - you'd be lucky to get one from a hut, maybe one if the right great general was in the lineup, if one particular city state was in the game and you found them before discovering too many of the natural wonders (and even then it provides 3 or 4 at best), or by suiciding apostles provided they have the right promotion available (which there are a few ways of ensuring.) And that's it, originally there were no other methods of getting relics. Now with these two game modes active, you get one every time your hero retires, and you can bring them back for presumably more (don't know, I don't play with heroes) and industrial level voidsingers provides a method of getting basically unlimited relics of the void (which his game was over before he had the opportunity to exploit.)

I've won early tourism with the heroes + reliquaries tourism combo alone. The AI doesn't pursue heroes aggressively, and if you snag a number you have tons of early tourism (they are 10 tourism each base iirc). I didn't even have secret societies. That sounds almost like more of the culprit.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Some testing about Monopolies: (may be some errors)

• You get a Monopoly at 60% of a resource.
  • 3/6 or 5/9 is not enough.
  • You do not need a Corportation to have a Monopoly!
• Each Monopolies give you +5% * the resourse count tourism multiplier times the number of opposing civs.
  • If you have 4 of a resource and there are 4 other civs, that's +60%. If you have 4 Monopolies of 3, that would be +240%.
  • The calculation of this multiplier does not exclude opponents without a current Trade Route or Trading Post.
  • The calculation of this multiplier does not exclude opponents who also possess the resource.
  • This multiplier is applied to all opponents.
  • The application of this multiplier does not exclude opponents without a current Trade Route or Trading Post.
  • The application of this multiplier does not exclude opponents who also possess the resource.
  • This is additive with other per-civilization multipliers, such as +25% for open borders, +25% for a trade route, ect.
• Monopolies give slightly more Gold-per-turn (5/10/25) when the amount controlled increases to 60/80/100%.
  • These threshholds of control have no impact on anything else, including the Tourism multiplier--that will be the same at any level of control.

Monopolies have nothing to do with Corporations nor Trading, full stop.

Here I have +45% from getting my first resource to 3/4. I have not traded with any opponent, and corporations are not unlocked yet. When I added the 4th the following turn, it jumped to +60%.

 

[Myomoto]

I feel like the cumulative tourism bonus must be a bug? Why should the number of opposing civs increase the bonus? A flat +15% tourism bonus to each other civ per monopoly seems a lot more reasonable.

 

[kb27787]

I can also confirm that monopolies tourism bonuses come into play even before mercantilism is researched... (you can't even see how many copies it takes in the resources screen yet)
Here is a deity t124 accidental culture win thanks to the very broken bonus.... and I gave everyone a copy of my monopolized resource too... doesn't seem to matter.

Really, the bonus needs to be reduced by 10x, and even then it seems too strong. +56% at this stage of the game is greater than the computers + environmentalism bonuses combined

 

[AntSou]

I feel like there's something missing. I'm glad we got this, it's a BIG mode, which I think gives modders enough creative freedom to adjust it in a number of different ways, but presently it feels wonky.


Industries
Simple and straightforward. Imo these work just fine and the only adjustment they really need is a greater variety of bonuses. Makes perfect sense to be a tile improvement.


Monopolies
a) The Tourism boost calculation is unnecessarily convoluted and too strong. They should just work like every other Tourism (International) Modifier, e.g. Open Borders:

- Each monopoly provides a 20%* Tourism boost over any Civ that doesn't own a copy of that resource. *Just an example.
You can see a list of all international modifiers here.

b) Gold output should probably be higher aswell.

c) A World Congress decision is required to ban or strengthen the effects of specific monopolies.

If all Monopolies do is give a tourism and gold boost, they would be fine but not immensely creative. Someone might find a more engaging system.


Corporations
a) The idea of Products is good, but being limited to base game mechanics penalises it.

Corporations should cause loyalty pressure over any Civ without a copy of its product. The more copies of the same Product in the world, the greater the loyalty pressure but the lesser the bonuses of ALL copies. The player can then choose to use a tall or wide strategy for any given unique product. Tall play relies on a boost to yields, whereas wide play relies on loyalty pressure to either flip foreign cities or force other Civs to acquire your products.

Products last 30 to 60 turns, after which point they expire and more need to be created. The last copy remaining of a unique product is permanent and can never be traded or stolen.

1 Copy of MegaCaffeine:

25% Culture output in the City with the MegaCaffeine product.
-1 Loyalty within 9 tiles of the City with the MegaCaffeine Corporation, in Civs that do not own at least one copy of it.

2 Copies of MegaCaffeine:

10% Culture in Cities with a MegaCaffeine product.
-3 Loyalty within 9 tiles of the City with the MegaCaffeine Corporation, in Civs that do not own at least one copy of it.

2+x Copies of MegaCaffeine:

5% Culture in Cities with a MegaCaffeine product.
-5 Loyalty within 9 tiles of the City with the MegaCaffeine Corporation, in Civs that do not own at least one copy of it.

Loyalty Pressure cannot go beyond -5 per unique product. (but keep in mind the -5 Pressure from MegaCaffeine can accumulate with -1/-3/-5 Pressure from SpongySponges, for instance)

Bonuses from Unique Products in foreign Civs:
- +1 Diplomatic Visibility per Unique product in that Civ;
- +x% Tourism Boost per Unique product in that Civ;
- +x% Espionage boost per Unique product in that Civ.
Note: Loyalty Pressure does not apply in foreign Civs who own one copy of that product. That's the incentive foreign civs have to acquire your products.

b) I'm not a fan of Corporations being a Tile Improvement or the boost to tile yields they provide, but I accept this might be the easiest way to handle it. However, starting in the Industrial Era, all Great Merchants should have a unique charge to build a Corporation, independent of its unique ability charges.

c) A World Congress decision which bans or strengthens the effects of a given Product.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

It's very simple. It shouldn't be multiplied by the number of opponents, and should only apply to those who you have current Trade Routes with (and who do not themselves have the resource).

From the sound of the dev videos, it seems like what the developers themselves thought it was.

It appears to be a miscommunication problem, albeit an egregious one. Someone said "Tourism from Monopolies should be multiplied by each opponent", aka how Tourism naturally works. But it was misinterpreted and implemented as a multiplier of that (already multiplied) behavior.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

It's very simple. It shouldn't be multiplied by the number of opponents, and should only apply to those who you have current Trade Routes with (and who do not themselves have the resource).

From the sound of the dev videos, it seems like what the developers themselves thought it was.

It appears to be a miscommunication problem, albeit an egregious one. Someone said "Tourism from Monopolies should be multiplied by each opponent", aka how Tourism naturally works. But it was misinterpreted and implemented as a multiplier of that (already multiplied) behavior.

I bet you're right, seems like the simplest answer (and probably the easiest fix)

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Monopoly should probably require a Corporation, too. (The fact that everyone was confused it didn't is probably all the argument you need.)

Restricting it to the later game would let the numbers remain somewhat high and worth going after, though obviously much reduced from the current status quo.

 

[8housesofelixir]

It's very simple. It shouldn't be multiplied by the number of opponents, and should only apply to those who you have current Trade Routes with (and who do not themselves have the resource).

From the sound of the dev videos, it seems like what the developers themselves thought it was.

It appears to be a miscommunication problem, albeit an egregious one. Someone said "Tourism from Monopolies should be multiplied by each opponent", aka how Tourism naturally works. But it was misinterpreted and implemented as a multiplier of that (already multiplied) behavior.

It seems like we need a bug report on that as well.

Guess the biggest and most complex gamemode will also introduce some biggest bugs when developed in a tight schedule.

 

[Caprikel]

After my Vietnam game I'll probably be turning off Culture victory until this issue is fixed, since those tourism yields are far too ridiculous.

 

[8housesofelixir]

After my Vietnam game I'll probably be turning off Culture victory until this issue is fixed, since those tourism yields are far too ridiculous.

Just want to follow that there is a Steam Achievement asking for "win a Cultural Victory as Genghis Khan". I suppose with the Corporation gamemode on it's much easier to get this achievement.

 

[Shadowstrike]

It's very simple. It shouldn't be multiplied by the number of opponents, and should only apply to those who you have current Trade Routes with (and who do not themselves have the resource).

From the sound of the dev videos, it seems like what the developers themselves thought it was.

It appears to be a miscommunication problem, albeit an egregious one. Someone said "Tourism from Monopolies should be multiplied by each opponent", aka how Tourism naturally works. But it was misinterpreted and implemented as a multiplier of that (already multiplied) behavior.

Can someone mod this in?

 

[bengalryan9]

OK, so I watched the video (not like it was a big task; I'm a fan as well. Top-notch editing too.) I'll agree that the 1400% bonus is out of whack; that needs a serious reduction (90%) which I would prefer over a hard cap. I also think it would work well in tandem with buffing local tourists. But that particular game wasn't a great example of what usually happens (or potentially could happen) in a deity level game. I hate to cry "Youtuber Luck," but there were several things that happened there that just don't happen in most games:

1.) He was able to snag the Earth Goddess pantheon without using a meme tactic to get it (Gitarja/Peter/Mansa Musa with a suitable start, starting adjacent to two dye/tobacco resources, relic from a hut on turn 5, etc.) As the game has developed and more and more benefits are attained through high appeal and a heavy faith income, there's a pretty strong argument that this pantheon is the best and consequently usually the first to go. I find that if I'm not able to use one of these tactics and get the pantheon by turn 12 at the latest, it's gone. He was able to get it at turn 23, nearly twice as long, which is usually only possible when playing Emperor level or below. This fundamentally changed how the game played out as it gave him exponentially increasing faith income which he used to REX with a monumentality golden age as well as spam out national parks which was what won the game - perhaps they should switch back to 1800 cost or somethinig more suitable. I'd never accuse Potato of saying that the game is deity and then editing to a lower level, I believe in his integrity 100%, but in my experience this advantage is not attainable on deity without some serious map-luck or by picking a civ that basically unlocks the advantage.
2.) He was playing with Heroes/Legends on, and was able to grab both the resource planting hero and the resource eliminating hero. Without these, he would have had to reallocate a LOT of his resources away from faith and tourism generation and towards military conquest in order to achieve the level of luxury monopolizing that he had.
3.) While this is a fair tactic and quite achievable on deity, he had both secret societies and heroes on, went Voidsingers and took the Reliquaries belief. That belief may now need to be nerfed, as it originally gave a strong (300%) bonus towards something that was extremely difficult to come by - you'd be lucky to get one from a hut, maybe one if the right great general was in the lineup, if one particular city state was in the game and you found them before discovering too many of the natural wonders (and even then it provides 3 or 4 at best), or by suiciding apostles provided they have the right promotion available (which there are a few ways of ensuring.) And that's it, originally there were no other methods of getting relics. Now with these two game modes active, you get one every time your hero retires, and you can bring them back for presumably more (don't know, I don't play with heroes) and industrial level voidsingers provides a method of getting basically unlimited relics of the void (which his game was over before he had the opportunity to exploit.)
4.) In addition to the pantheon, wonders weren't built as quickly as usual on deity. Not that it played a big part in the game, but he was able to build the Mausoleum on turn 189. Again, that sounds more like prince than deity.

FWIW, I play on deity and I haven't had too hard of a time getting Earth Goddess. I don't think it's as hard to get as you claim it to be. I've also seen Mausoleum stick around for a long time pretty frequently.

 

[bbbt]

FWIW, I play on deity and I haven't had too hard of a time getting Earth Goddess. I don't think it's as hard to get as you claim it to be. I've also seen Mausoleum stick around for a long time pretty frequently.

Yeah I'd say earth goddess hasn't been hard to get since it got nerfed (deservedly so) to breathtaking only.

 

[Victoria]

EG is a damn site easier than RS on deity because quite a few civs take another ‘suitable’ choice for them like sacred path.

Trusting PMW is like trusting any online non-streamer, I have been bitten too much perhaps.

Reliquaries and just a couple of monopolies means you do not need culture at all for a CV.

 

[Xandinho]

Hey guys, what are you thinking about the corporation mode? Have you seen the AI creating industries and corporations?

I don't know if it's a bug but the AI is not improving resources after the first source. They build a mine on a diamond and that's it, they forget about the others sources of diamond on the map. So the AI has only one source of each resource. I need to see that withoug the corporation mode.

In addiction, the tourism by monopolies is ridiculous, that's definitely a bug.

The corporation mode is pretty nice (for me, by far the best game mode), but it looks like they didn't test it enough.

Also, no civ with the abilities changed in this mode. In previous game modes, the abilities of Georgia and Sumer was changed, but no one in this one? At least Netherlands definitely should have been noticed.

 

[RealHuhn]

Maui can create 100% monopolies by creating unique, one of a kind luxuries. I get +50 gold per turn on T40 from monopolies (probably two 100% monopolies = 2*25 gpt).

 

[HiRezAudio]

Just off the top of my head:
1 - This is simply not true. I find on Deity that Earth Goddess is available much, much more often than you might otherwise think - I take this almost every time, if the free builder or free settler options are gone (Free settler only seems to happen if I stumble across a relic these days, and free builder (with the faster growth) is about a 50/50) but Earth Goddess is almost always available.
2 - Agreed, but irrelevant. The bonuses still stack to an absurd level.
3 - Again, agreed but irrelevant. The bonuses still stack to an absurd level.
4 - The AI never seems to build the Mausoleum in my experience. I can almost always get this wonder with very little effort on Deity level.
In general, the whole wonders thing really depends on what AI Civs you roll - some prioritize wonders, others pretty much seem to ignore them altogether.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Small detail worth to note for industry placement: Replacing a mine/quarry with an industry is actually beneficial for appeal of adjacent tiles, as you replace an improvement with a negative effect of -1 by one with neutral effect:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...nge-screenshots.601435/page-174#post-16015320

Highly questionable for my taste (I would personally give the industry improvement instead even a -2 appeal price tag), but thats the way it currently works.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Each Monopolies give you +5% * the resourse count tourism multiplier times the number of opposing civs.

The calculation of this multiplier does not exclude opponents who also possess the resource.

Great info, thanks for pulling this together. I wanted to mention that this is slightly different to what Brian said on stream, so it makes me wonder if it's working as intended.

On the stream he said that 'Monopolies provide tourism equal to the number of resources controlled, multiplied by the number of foreign civs who do not control an instance of the monopolised resource.' You can see that at 40:45 in the vod -

I've not tested this in game though! Will report back when I get into the late game.