More Central Powers?

Well then you come up with a better explanation. I can't seem to find any other reason other than bat-crazy suicide.

It might have been bat-crazy suicide but what did they have to lose? If they joined the Central Powers I suppose they might be lucky enough to get a small slice of the Russian Empire and end up a puppet state, if they stayed neutral and the Central Powers won they would be a puppet state with no gains at all, or part of Austria-Hungary anyways (easier to have all the Romanians in one state, and AH probably wouldn't be the one surrendering territory as a victor). If they thought the Entente was going to win, being neutral is just stupid because they are missing their chance to get some major gains.

By joining the Entente at least they had a chance to get a hold of a major Romanian populated territory. In short, if they joined the Central Powers and lost they were screwed. If they stayed neutral they were basically still screwed, if they joined and won they had the potential to come out quite well off.
 
I don't see how staying neutral would had screwed them over. They weren't Greece, it's not like Entente fleets can bombard Bucharest.

Staying neutral would not result in Romania become a Central-Power Puppet. It probably would have made Romania inclined to the CP axis but it's not like Germany/Austria-Hungary would invaded them and annex them.

And if Romania wanted to join the winning side to grab some Greater Romanian Land, the first time they moblised and declare war on the Central Powers resulted in their defeat. The thing is nobody knew who would win WWI until the very last couple of months where all the Nations jumped on the WWI bandwagon and declared war.
Romania moblised in 1916 and 1918. That first time, The CP were plowing through Russia and a huge chunk of France was under fire. I cannot see how this looks like "the Entente was going to win"

All I can find and know is that King Ferdinand was a wuss who preferred neutrality and Queen Marie was a driving force in convincing Ferdinand to sign the declaration of War.
 
All I can find and know is that King Ferdinand was a wuss who preferred neutrality and Queen Marie was a driving force in convincing Ferdinand to sign the declaration of War.

That might be the case, but to say there was no logic behind it other than the whims of a monarch seems like oversimplification.

And I actually disagree that they would not have been invaded following the war. Though it's entirely possible they wouldn't be, the threat was there. If Austria-Hungary won they would certainly want to deal with the lingering problems of irredentism to insure their own survival. If 1/3 of Romanians lived in Austria-Hungary, the only permanent ways to deal with this are to either surrender Romanian populated areas to Romania (unlikely given the Hungarians and just general national pride) or annex Romania outright and incorporate it. While it's quite possible, or even likely Vienna could have just continually put off the issue forever with various treaties and minor concessions, that doesn't mean the threat of what they might do one day wasn't there. From the standpoint of Romania, Austria-Hungary probably seemed very scary and it was better to deal with them when they were at war with several other major powers.
 
I thought Britain would be more willing to ally with Germany, seeing as how Germany had industrial and military (at least insofar as defeating France) superiority in Europe.
Yes but for all their military might, as two world wars demonstrated, they just couldn't cause Britain that much trouble. France was much closer obviously, but a war between France and Britain would have been a genuinely global war. France would threaten British Colonies and maritime trade all over the globe, Germany could...make some vague trouble in Africa and some brief problems in the far east.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and more yes. Similarly, Russia could potentially threaten India, which regularly induced heart attacks in Whitehall.
On the subject of colonial wars in WWI, did Germany actually think they stood a chance at holding any of the colonies or were they pretty much expected to be taken? I'm aware that the East African Campaign went on an absurd amount of time given the size of the armies and importance of the theater, but was this more through actual planning or just the good leadership of Lettow-Vorbeck and a lot of luck?

Did Germany have any sort of plan for things even more far flung, like the far east possessions in the event of a Great War?
The Germans never seriously believed that the colonies could hold out forever. Ideally, though, they wouldn't need to: the army in Europe would have defeated France and ruined Russia's armies, and perhaps have forced Britain to the negotiating table within a few months. But they did think in terms of a long war (the General Staff was weird like this; they planned everything around a short war and then in certain loosely connected areas also planned for a long one...). The General Staff's opinion was that the colonial military forces should work to tie as many British and French soldiers down as possible, thus making life easier for the German troops on the Continent. Colonial administrators - who were the ones actually in command of the police and the Schütztruppen, the potential armed forces for the colonies in event of war - generally thought in different terms, wanting to try for general neutrality in Africa. (Some Germans - the colonial-administrator types, not the General Staff types - in Africa proposed such a neutrality agreement in 1914 under the terms of the Final Act of the Berlin Congress, which theoretically demilitarized the Congo and much of central and southern Africa. This was brushed aside by everybody else, including the Belgians.)

In the event, the administrators didn't get the choice, and the German colonies were faced with war. Going down the list:

Africa

Togoland, at the outbreak of war, was commanded by one Major von Döring, since the governor was on leave. He had, at his disposal, about 150 paramilitary guards, 400 police and 125 border-patrolmen, armed with the model-1871 rifle and four machine guns. He immediately proposed neutrality and was ignored. He then elected to abandon most of the colony, ignoring orders to hold as much of Togoland as was possible against the British (which deployed the Gold Coast Regiment against the Germans) and instead focused on defending the key wireless station at Kamina for as long as possible before his "troops" started to suffer casualties. Even Kamina was not held that long; Döring elected to place the needs of colonial administration for peaceful continuity over the needs of the German General Staff for tying down the entente's troops.

The defence of Kamerun was based on a somewhat similar pretension. Ebermaier, the governor, and Zimmerman, the military commander, planned to maintain control of the interior of the colony long enough to retain possession that could be brought up at the peace conference to end the war and keep a plausible claim to the colony. Again, this had nothing to do with tying down entente forces, and everything to do with colonialism-as-end-in-itself; the possession of the colony was what mattered, and if it could be accomplished without fighting, so much the better. Zimmerman's defense of Kamerun easily equaled the feat accomplished by Lettow-Vorbeck in Ostafrika - Lettow-Vorbeck had the luxury of waiting until 1916 before the entente powers made any serious attempts to attack his colony, whereas Zimmerman had to deal with Anglo-French attacks from 6 August 1914, and managed to last until 1916.

Südwest-Afrika contained 2,000 troops (plus about 3,000 reservists), a sad comparison to 1904-7, during the Herero uprising, when Lothar von Trotha could mass 21,000. But again, defense plans were organized with a view towards maintenance of possession as an end in itself - insofar as there were any plans at all. Heydebreck, the German commander, was killed by a misfiring rifle grenade in the fall of 1914, his successor was killed on the Oranje River in raiding and counter-raiding, and the eventual commander, one Viktor Franke, was a veteran of a brief antsy encounter with the Portuguese in southern Angola, who the Germans had mistakenly believed were building up troops to attack. (In reality, the buildup was to try to suppress rebellions.) With so much confusion at the top, a coherent strategy didn't exist. Franke was a skilled tactician and fighting soldier, but planning for the defense of the colony as a whole was probably beyond him. German troops failed to take advantage of the South African rebellion in the fall of 1914 and were subsequently buried under an avalanche of Boer troops, some 75,000 strong.

Ostafrika is perhaps the most famous case. It was also a deviation from the norm. Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck was one of those General Staff types who wanted to launch offensives and tie down entente troops that could be used on the Western Front. (In reality, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers that Lettow-Vorbeck's men fought would never have ended up in France. Most of them were South African or Indian; a few were of the British and Belgian African colonial regiments.) In 1914 and 1915, aided by the breathing space afforded by incompetent British commanders and the ongoing defense of Kamerun, Lettow-Vorbeck mounted several raids into Kenya and sparred with the Belgians in Ruanda and Urundi.

In 1916, Jan Smuts moved in with a huge new South African army, fresh from the Namibian campaign, and pulled the same trick he did in Südwest-Afrika, swarming the Germans with incompetently led and poorly supplied troops that suffered ridiculous casualties but still managed to struggle to the central railroad and cut it, forcing the Germans to retreat first behind the Ruaha and then into Northern Rhodesia. The ultimate result of the Ostafrikan campaign was ironic: Lettow-Vorbeck had wanted to tie down enemy troops first and foremost, and fight battles of annihilation (not the guerrilla-style tactics for which he was lauded, which he considered to be inefficient), while the other German colonial administrators in Africa wanted simply to maintain possession to use as a bargaining chip at the peace conferences. But it was Lettow-Vorbeck's army that remained in 1918, to have been used as a negotiating chip if the Germans had ever been included in the negotiations. (Which, of course, they weren't.)

Pacific Islands

Qingdao, while not, strictly speaking, a Pacific island, was the base for the German East Asiatic cruiser squadron; Graf Spee, as is well known, abandoned it in the summer of 1914 and went on a guerre de course in the Pacific, eventually annihilating a British squadron at Coronel and then suffering the same fate at the Falklands during the winter of 1914-5. Qingdao itself was the focus of an attempt by the German foreign ministry to secure a neutrality agreement that embraced the entire Pacific Ocean, to be underwritten by the United States - an absurdity, since the East Asiatic Squadron was, at the same time, blowing up wireless stations in Polynesia. (If anybody wanted more proof that the German foreign ministry's dialogue with the military was somewhere between sucky and nonexistent...) Even so, the Germans had a reasonable prospect of defending Qingdao: nobody was equipped to do amphibious landings in the teeth of the port's guns in the Far East, and the British at neighboring Weihaiwei lacked the troops to attack the place. (The governor, Meyer-Waldeck, again saw his goals as possession as an end in itself, perhaps chiefly because, with a total of slightly over 4,500 men, he lacked the ability to do anything but defend.) The Japanese circumvented these issues by violating Chinese neutrality, landing at Longkou, and marching overland to attack Qingdao, which resisted until November in the face of well over ten times its number.

None of the Pacific Islands had any real garrison outside of scattered police and a few small units of Schütztruppen; none of them resisted longer than 1915, with the exception of an extremely small (like, less than a hundred total) number of fanatics who took to the hills to continue the war. As such, there was no real plan to use these places to do anything in the teeth of entente attacks.

Anyway. Pulling it all together: in most cases, Berlin wanted some kind of concerted effort to resist for a long time, and a few colonies - Kamerun and Ostafrika, mainly, and Qingdao to a lesser extent - were expected to manage this (and did). They weren't expected to be able to keep fighting for four years, though, because the Germans didn't think that a war would last four years. And the colonial administrators who actually ran most of these places ignored the General Staff's injunctions and tried to maintain possession by any means necessary, including neutrality.
The short answer is this: No. Germany had no plans to really accomplish much of anything with their colonies. They abandoned Tsingtao almost immediately, and only held onto GEA through the skill of their man on the ground. The colonies were only ever intended to serve as diversions for British effort, while the ships in those colonies were dispersed to do as much damage to Britain's commerce as possible. Germany's goals for the war were purely on the Continent - which is not to say they wouldn't have demanded some colonies of France if they'd defeated her - and her war plans were drawn up accordingly.
I think that the relatively anemic German efforts in most of the colonies was due to a lack of resources in the colonies with which to sustain a military effort, not due to a conscious decision to say "hey we'll ignore the colonies and let the Brits snap most of them up because we don't care". They clearly did care, but there was no actual way of improving the colonies' ability to resist in most cases.
Well then you come up with a better explanation. I can't seem to find any other reason other than bat-crazy suicide.
Well, the usual reason people give is that the Romanians saw the impressive initial successes of the Brusilov offensive and the almost total lack of Austro-Hungarian troops in Transylvania and figured that they might as well get in while the getting was good. Same reasoning as Bulgaria, really, except with obviously different specifics.
 
You can thank Marie of Romania for that. As a British Princess, she baulked at the idea of going to war with Britain. Along with the Prime Minister, she influenced King Ferdinand to declare war on Germany and join the Entente powers. She was a very popular Queen among the Romanians and was very effective in bringing a pro-Britain sentiment to the Romanian people and parliament.

I can't seem to find other reasons though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_Romania

Well, she could have played some role in making the decision, and (sexism alert :evil: ) as a woman she surely didn't know squat about military matters, but then others should have.

And if Romania wanted to join the winning side to grab some Greater Romanian Land, the first time they moblised and declare war on the Central Powers resulted in their defeat. The thing is nobody knew who would win WWI until the very last couple of months where all the Nations jumped on the WWI bandwagon and declared war.
Romania moblised in 1916 and 1918. That first time, The CP were plowing through Russia and a huge chunk of France was under fire. I cannot see how this looks like "the Entente was going to win"

This, exactly my thoughts on the matter.

If Austria-Hungary won they would certainly want to deal with the lingering problems of irredentism to insure their own survival. If 1/3 of Romanians lived in Austria-Hungary, the only permanent ways to deal with this are to either surrender Romanian populated areas to Romania (unlikely given the Hungarians and just general national pride) or annex Romania outright and incorporate it.

Whawhawhat? That's exactly what the Austrians wanted to avoid - adding more dissatisfied "minorities" into the Empire, thus making it even less governable. In a CP dominated Europe, Romania would have to STFU about Romanians in A-H, or face ending up like Serbia. With even a tiny bit of common sense, they'd have done just that.
 
But it's not like I gave one opportunity. I gave an opportunity in 1895, 1899-1902 and 1905, and I'm sure if I took the time to think about it, a couple more, such as the Balkan War of 1913.. It's not a matter of bungling if it's a consistent policy for decades. If they were looking for an opportunity to fight a war, they had much better opportunities, and they could expect to have much better ones later, even under the "the sooner the better" school of thought. If someone is going to seriously claim that Germany and Austria were looking for a war, they need to come up with more convincing evidence that either they came up on this decision oh, somewhere between the beginning of July and August, or come up with some compelling evidence that none of the German and Austrian politicians working so hard to prevent the outbreak of war were able to realize that they could have the war they so wanted, by not working so hard to try and prevent it.

In this case I think you may well be right, I'm just making the point you cannot assume states have been rational and made the optimum choices to explain their actions in general. I thought I had made that clear.

Very very very long shot: Persia tries to reclaim Azerbaijan if things were looking really bad for the Russians?
 
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and more yes. Similarly, Russia could potentially threaten India, which regularly induced heart attacks in Whitehall.

Could they really have though? I don't know a huge amount about logictics but this seems to have always been more of a bogeyman than a real threat to me.

Persia was the Mexico of Western Asia; politically unstable, and getting raped periodically by foreign powers.

I know, but this might have been a way to improve things for it. I'm not saying it's plausible as I know literally nothing about Persia in this era, just putting the idea out there.
 
Whawhawhat? That's exactly what the Austrians wanted to avoid - adding more dissatisfied "minorities" into the Empire, thus making it even less governable. In a CP dominated Europe, Romania would have to STFU about Romanians in A-H, or face ending up like Serbia. With even a tiny bit of common sense, they'd have done just that.

You're right they did want to avoid it, but more than that, Austria-Hungary wanted to avoid falling apart. Some of the leadership was for trying to put off the problems caused by the minorities as long as possible by making minor deals here and there or occasionally going in and beating up nationalists, while some were for trying to solve the problems by making the dissatisfied minorities somehow satisfied. It's highly unlikely any of the minorities could ever be permanently satisfied while they existed within two separate states. People were already advocating annexing Serbia and making it part of a new Slavic Kingdom within the Empire. I don't see any reason the Romanians shouldn't have feared the same thing could happen to them. Even if the idea ever getting off the ground is debatable, it is still there and that is all that needed for it to be scary.

If the Central Powers won, Romania would pretty much either be asking to be beat on by the Austrians once every few years to shut up nationalists or risk ending up as part of an Austrian state years down the road.
 
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and more yes. Similarly, Russia could potentially threaten India, which regularly induced heart attacks in Whitehall.
So a British alliance with France was also to dissuade a potential French alliance with Russia that would in turn threaten British India in the event of a UK/DE-FR/RU war?
 
So a British alliance with France was also to dissuade a potential French alliance with Russia that would in turn threaten British India in the event of a UK/DE-FR/RU war?
No, the British and Russians made their own colonial agreement in 1907. The fact that the British and French had settled their colonial questions and then began to organize staff talks in the event of a European war certainly helped tie the British to the Russians, though. There was no formal alliance between Britain and Russia, not even anything close like the understanding in the event of a European war the British and French had. (In the summer of 1914, the British and Russians attempted to hold secret naval talks that, the Russians hoped, would solidify Anglo-Russian ties and could be converted into an explicit alliance. This was another factor in German decision-making in July; the Germans knew about these "secret" talks and were convinced that they were a further sign of their encirclement and how they were ultimately screwed, which they were.)

The initial talks with France, and then Russia, were confined to colonial issues; both the entente cordiale and the 1907 Anglo-Russian agreement omitted any mention of Europe, Germany, or Britain joining in a war there. But out of that colonial relationship grew an explicit military one with France, and since France was tied to Russia by their own Dual Alliance, the British became a loose ally of Russia, too.
 
The Germans never seriously believed that the colonies could hold out forever....

By the way, I never thanked you for the in depth answer having gotten caught up in other arguments. Was a good little explanation. Thanks.
 
The whole thing about the Treaty of London permitting intervention to safeguard Belgian neutrality is a farce, by the way. The terms of the treaty (entirely apart from being aimed at France) stated that unilateral intervention to "protect" Belgium was forbidden, for the obvious reason that that could just be used as a pretext to take the country over anyway. Intervention was predicated on a four-power conference, otherwise, it violated the treaty.

Of course, the British knew this, which is why their ultimatum to Germany did not mention Belgium, let alone the Treaty of London. Belgium only came up as a convenient way to get the Liberal backbenchers to underwrite Grey's foreign policy in the Commons. Paternalistically appealing to the Rights of Small Countries usually worked fairly well with that crowd.
 
The whole thing about the Treaty of London permitting intervention to safeguard Belgian neutrality is a farce, by the way. The terms of the treaty (entirely apart from being aimed at France) stated that unilateral intervention to "protect" Belgium was forbidden, for the obvious reason that that could just be used as a pretext to take the country over anyway. Intervention was predicated on a four-power conference, otherwise, it violated the treaty.

Of course, the British knew this, which is why their ultimatum to Germany did not mention Belgium, let alone the Treaty of London. Belgium only came up as a convenient way to get the Liberal backbenchers to underwrite Grey's foreign policy in the Commons. Paternalistically appealing to the Rights of Small Countries usually worked fairly well with that crowd.
Too bad the slave trade was gone by then. That was always good for whipping the liberals into a frenzy.
 
I meant it the British joined the central powers (the original point in the quote). It wold be pointless for the germans to invade Belgium.
 
I meant it the British joined the central powers (the original point in the quote). It wold be pointless for the germans to invade Belgium.
The British were never likely to join the Central Powers, though. :confused:
 
I meant it the British joined the central powers (the original point in the quote). It wold be pointless for the germans to invade Belgium.

Why? It is still the easiest way to circumvent a large portion of French defenses. The British Army isn't likely to play that significant of a role in France as to completely change the nature of the war (of course France may hesitate to declare war with Britain alongside Germany) until a stalemate developed (if it ever would). The British military is going to be most important in colonial wars and a RN blockade.
And siezing a port would provide a convenient position from which the British can deploy troops and deliver supplies to the continent.

I don't see any real incentive for the Germans to change their plans with British support if there is a war with France.
 
So, Dachs, are you of the opinion that the British government was mostly looking to pick a fight (or to be more precise, was 'hijacked' by elements that were looking to pick a fight) with Germany? So in a sense one could say that they wanted war and they got it?
 
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