more religions?

[VGL]

and i was saying some facts

 

[Sanguivorant]

I'm just going to say this up front. Your belief that Sunni and Shi'a Islam are different enough to be classified as different religions makes me very angry.

Spoiler :

"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided." (3:103)

"And be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving clear signs: for them is a dreadful punishment " (3:105)

“ As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you are NO PART IN THEM IN THE LEAST, their affair is with Allah, He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.” (6:159)

“ And be not like those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their religion and become (mere) sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!” (30:32)

"Verily, you are one Ummah. I am your Lord, worship me." (21:92)

I am 100% certain that Shi'a Islam also considers the Qur'an as a holy book.

 

[VGL]

Well,not a Quran reader because i can't understand Arabic and they might change something in English ones.but they are different. it's a fact.and it makes me angry that you say that Sunni and Shia is the same because it's not. unless something magical happens like in the fairy tale stories,these two are different.and i'll ask my religious teacher these things you wrote when school starts. and the first and last one is not related

 

[citis]

Please, don't talk about your religions here. This about a game, and in game terms religions all have the same effects (well except catholicism, whose bonuses makes it the superior religion in DoC and I would like to see balance here)

Moreover, take into acount that different "religions" in DoC might be about different religions (like Buddhism, Zoroastrianism) or different denominations (like Catholicism and Protestantism). The DoC mechanics see different denominations as different religions, because it isn't interested in theological differences but in the political impact.

Protestantism/Catholicism had a major political impact in Europe so it is represented. Hinduist denominations are hundreds, but they have no political impact, so they aren't represented.

Shia/Sunni has a political impact on the game. Fatimids (respawned Egypt) and Iran will be surrounded by angry or friendly neighbours which makes its gameplay completely different. So this split has a point to be added.

 

[BenZL43]

Is there actually a limit on how many religion can we have in-game? Does having 10000 religions in-game adds more waiting time?

 

[Leoreth]

Is there actually a limit on how many religion can we have in-game? Does having 10000 religions in-game adds more waiting time?

No. It'd make the religion spread calculation 10000 times slower, but that has only a small percentage of overall turn times anyway.

Edit: I think we are limited by the number of icons allowed in the icon map.

 

[merijn_v1]

I've seen larger gamefonts in some mods, which can support many more religions. There still will be an limit though, but much larger.

 

[calad]

and i was saying some facts

Its not that you are incorrect but Shia Sunni split is too minor to include. Mostly split is a political and today it does not make any sense since there is no Caliphate. Currently there are Arabs, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Qordoba as islamic civs. Sunni Shia split is focused mainly on Middle-East and Persia. There are also other religions that were almost as significant as shia who were always a minority like Ibadi. But ofcourse Sunnia Shia split could be included but Leo seems not to be so intrested.

 

[Theodorick]

Its not that you are incorrect but Shia Sunni split is too minor to include. Mostly split is a political and today it does not make any sense since there is no Caliphate. Currently there are Arabs, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Qordoba as islamic civs. Sunni Shia split is focused mainly on Middle-East and Persia. There are also other religions that were almost as significant as shia who were always a minority like Ibadi. But ofcourse Sunnia Shia split could be included but Leo seems not to be so intrested.

You forgot the Mughals.

 

[Shadow Merc]

Leoreth, do you think there's merit in removing Arabia's ability to remove religion on conquest and just keep it as spread religion with a temple? Having all those extra religions might also help them collapse faster.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Leoreth, do you think there's merit in removing Arabia's ability to remove religion on conquest and just keep it as spread religion with a temple? Having all those extra religions might also help them collapse faster.

This was definitely suggested before, and I agree wholeheartedly with it. A commerce bonus per religion would make the most sense, as it symbolizes this "Jizya" tax that was enforced. And that has been suggested by someone else as well.

@VGL:

If you want to talk more about this, PM me. I am sure that there is a way for me to convince you that I am your brother, and that you are my brother.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Why? I'm a long time (pre-stability) Arab player and I'm telling you that'd name the UHV unbelievably lengthy & tedious. Getting 40% without persecution isn't easy.

Also the whole story of the "tolerance" of the Caliphates is modern myth utterly unsubstantiated by contemporary records of that time.
Most people couldn't afford the Jizya (paid in gold only) and the options afterward are conversion, slavery or death. Mohammed ordered death or expulsion of all non-Muslims from Arabia on his deathbed.

Of course very few Muslims today take this seriously anymore except Wahhabis who Saudi Arabia had lung been spreading like a cancer.

The more you read, the more you will find the political differences between Shia & Sunni are huge. Shiism is a blanket term for a whole range of esoteric sects: Alevis, Druze, Ismailis, Bohas ect., it doesn't only refer to the Jafari Twelvers.

But yeah I still think a game mechanic would best represent. Iranian UHV is impossible on Emperor I'm pretty sure.

 

[BenZL43]

^ at least the Church of the East isn't a myth; and it gives a perfect example that non-Islam religion still exists despite the fact whether their adherents pay jizya or not.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Mohammed ordered death or expulsion of all non-Muslims from Arabia on his deathbed.

I'm pretty sure his last words were of cursing those who worship the graves of prophets, implying that Muslims should not do that.

 

[Theodorick]

I'm pretty sure his last words were of cursing those who worship the graves of prophets, implying that Muslims should not do that.

You're right. I am not sure where Pavel Chichikov is getting this.

Possibly he/she is misinterpreting the last words quote stating that he also cursed the Christians and Jews for doing that, and he did say to expel the Jews from the Arabian Peninsula. I actually had to look up the quote to be perfectly sure, hence the edit. This is only one of the handful of accounts of his last words, and the more negative of them.

 

[Fresol]

Iranian UHV is impossible on Emperor I'm pretty sure.

Not sure I understand the context, but I posted an Iranian UHV on Paragon/Normal not long ago?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13411631&postcount=393

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

I didn't intend this turning into an Islam debate, but you can easily find what I said if you ask any Muslim scholar, or search the hadith or quran yourself.
That said the old testament is full of god explicitly commanding murder, genocide and enslavement. I'm not singling out Islam, just pointing out the historical record.

The Church of the East survived in the lebanon mountains, remote villages & Kurdistan where it was safe from persecution.
Copts maintained presence because Egypt's formative Islam came in the form of comparatively much more tolerant Shiite Fatimids. Egypt still celebrates Shia saints in the millions in Moulid festivals despite it being nominally Sunni.
Shia aren't even considered Muslims by most Sunni authorities. They claim Shiite sects have extensive 'Bida' (innovation). Generally the more by-the-book Sunni any country is the more intolerant it is. If you want to take me up on this I have been intimately involved with this world.

But yeah... I think there should just be a diplomatic mechanic or wonder to represent it. SoI still could have gone a lot further but that's something else.

 

[VGL]

Its not that you are incorrect but Shia Sunni split is too minor to include. Mostly split is a political and today it does not make any sense since there is no Caliphate. Currently there are Arabs, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Qordoba as islamic civs. Sunni Shia split is focused mainly on Middle-East and Persia. There are also other religions that were almost as significant as shia who were always a minority like Ibadi. But of course Sunnia Shia split could be included but Leo seems not to be so intrested.

what?many wars and prosecution were either against Shia or against Sunni. The Abbasid and Ottoman prosecuted all of Shia's because they were threatened by them.they were many wars between shai and Sunni. heck,the caliph of ottomans said that being a shia is thousand times worse than being a Christian.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Don't forget that Shiism was originally imposed on Iran by Turks in the first place.

 

[spaceman98]

Leoreth, do you think there's merit in removing Arabia's ability to remove religion on conquest and just keep it as spread religion with a temple? Having all those extra religions might also help them collapse faster.

I absolutely second this. IRL, the Arabs, at least initially, actually gave Middle Eastern (coptic) Christians a better deal than the (Orthodox) Christian byzantine empire, ditto for the Jews. This is one reason why they managed to expand so quickly, against much larger imperial foes. Of course, the treatment of "People of the Book" doesn't match modern standards of tollerance (Arabia won't be running egalitarianism on spawn ). The Arab UP should spread Islam, but it shouldn't erase local faiths (this should also make Crusades more interesting). The Seljuks should keep the current religion erasure UP, to erase Zoarastrianism.


Regarding the Shia/Sunni split, I would support adding it, especially given how much political trouble it is causing today (theologically, the two are very similar as far as I know, but politically, they are far appart). It would also represent the historical Ottoman/Safavid rivalry. Perhaps handle it like the reformation, and give various Muslim states various modifiers for how likely they are to adopt Shia Islam?

e.g: AI Sunni Persia and Babylon are very likely to become Shia, AI Sunni Egypt and Phonecia are moderately likely to adopt Shia Islam, everyone else Sunni is unlikely to become Shia, etc.

I do have one practical concern though. As mentioned above, we need the Seljuk religion erasure UP to clear Zoarastrianism. Historically, the Shia/Sunni split predates the Seljuks. Thus, if we implement historically, Shia Islam will be erased by the Seljuks, unless we make an exception to their UP...