More Ships ... More Beauty ... More Flavour [IMPLEMENTED]

I do not understand why not use the same frigate and galleone models like the colonies factions.
We need no extra class for the kings frigate.
Maybe a free promotion for advanced fighting for the kings unit.
It is good or for the start a good place holder in my opinion.
 
Guys, this is getting off topic again.
If you want to start discussion about a "supply system" please create a new thread. :thumbsup:
 
Just in case one of you guys (other modders) is still interested in adding more ships.
Here is some new stuff of @MightyToad

https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/renaissance-ships.29319/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/clipper-ship.29329/

Keep having fun modding guys. :)

renaissance_ships-jpg.607638

clipper_ship-jpg.608214
 
Sure that is no Schooner.
That is a relative small ship, with 2 - 3 masts (traditional ones, moderns can be more).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Lewis_R._French_NHL.jpg

A Schooner has no definitive number of masts. It is defined by the peculiar sail rig that looks a bit like a chinese junk or a Dhao instead of a square sail. It can have 1, 2,3 or 4 masts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cora_F._Cressey#/media/File:CoraFCresseyBySamuelBadger.jpg
After 1880, and thus out of the games timeframe, there have even been Schooners with 5 masts in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schooner
or even 6 masts...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)
 
A Schooner has no definitive number of masts. It is defined by the peculiar sail rig that looks a bit like a chinese junk or a Dhao instead of a square sail. It can have 1, 2,3 or 4 masts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cora_F._Cressey#/media/File:CoraFCresseyBySamuelBadger.jpg
After 1880, and thus out of the games timeframe, there have even been Schooners with 5 masts in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schooner
or even 6 masts...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)
Article says "Three-masted schooners were introduced around 1800." Which kinda supports the perception that a Schooner in the game time frame would be a two-mast at most, a smaller and quicker vessel requiring smaller crew complement. But, yes, that image fits a late 19th/early 20th century Schooner. And its very pretty. Lol
 
@MightyToad
You seem to know a lot about ships and sailing. So I thought I might aks you some things.
Could you help me to relatively compare the ships below with other ships?

-----

For comparison let us please use this system. :thumbsup:
Spoiler :

A) I mainly want to compare these factors with other ships.
  • Size
  • Cargo Space
  • Sailing Speed
  • Navigability
  • Combat Strength (Cannons / Troops)
B) For comparison let us e.g. use relative comparison with these ships:
(So all of these below could be used. All of them and more are already in the mod.)
  • Sloop
  • Caravel
  • Carrack
  • Fluyt
  • Merchantman
  • Brigantine aka "Schooner Brig"
  • East Indiaman
  • Galleon
  • Frigate
  • Ship of the Line
  • Man O' War


Please help me fill out the ???. :)
(See spoiler above to fill them in.)

1. Barque:
(How is "Barque" actually defined? Good image?)
  • Largen than ??? but smaller than ???
  • More Cargo Space than but less than ???
  • Faster than ??? but slower than ???
  • Easier to navigate than ??? but still harder than ???
  • Stronger in combat than ??? but still weaker than ???
2. Cutter:
(How is "Cutter" actually defined? Good image?)
  • Largen than ??? but smaller than ???
  • More Cargo Space than but less than ???
  • Faster than ??? but slower than ???
  • Easier to navigate than ??? but still harder than ???
  • Stronger in combat than ??? but still weaker than ???
3. Schooner:
(How is "Schooner" actually defined? Good image?)
  • Largen than ??? but smaller than ???
  • More Cargo Space than but less than ???
  • Faster than ??? but slower than ???
  • Easier to navigate than ??? but still harder than ???
  • Stronger in combat than ??? but still weaker than ???
4. Naval Brig:
(How is "Brig" actually defined? Good image?)
  • Largen than ??? but smaller than ???
  • More Cargo Space than but less than ???
  • Faster than ??? but slower than ???
  • Easier to navigate than ??? but still harder than ???
  • Stronger in combat than ??? but still weaker than ???
 
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I'm not mighty toad, but I can tell you one thing, Barque will be harder to define, as the term covered a huge range of variation both in size and function depending on usage. Some were small coastal traders or large troop transports, patrol vessels or cargo haulers. The smaller ones might even be shallow drafted enough for large river travel.

My suggestion for game usage would probably be to identify what is missing from naval line-up, and see if a Barque variation could suit that purpose.

BTW, there are I think 5 or 6 navies /today/ that utilize a sailing barque as their flagship. (Most have been refitted with engines for supplemental power)

You wouldn't sail one against a frigate, but there were barques that pirates would think thrice before attacking
 
@CptBadger

I was thinking about using the "Barque" as a "Salveship" for Trading in Africa.
(especially once we implement the new "Cargo Slot System Overhaul")

But to implement / balance the ship, I still need to answer these questions.
(And I really do not know enough about sailing / ships to answer these things.)

So for defining a "Salve Barque" I need to find values that are realistic and immersive. :dunno:

1. Barque:
(How is "Barque" actually defined? Good image?)
  • Largen than ??? but smaller than ???
  • More Cargo Space than but less than ???
  • Faster than ??? but slower than ???
  • Easier to navigate than ??? but still harder than ???
  • Stronger in combat than ??? but still weaker than ???
 
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You seem to know a lot about ships and sailing. So I thought I might aks you some things.
Could you help me to relatively compare the ships below with other ships?

I just have a general interest in the golden age of sail. Mostly Britain and America. Other guys are borderline historians (Walter).
The names of these ships refer more to the rig than the ship itself.

A brig has two square sail masts rather than three like a "ship rig". The "naval" in name just means it is for military use by the navy, rather than being a private merchant ship.
A cutter has a single mast, and three or more stay sails ( the sails on forward mast stay ropes).
A schooner has two masts with fore and aft sails. Modern ones have a single triangular bermuda sail, but tradionally they would have had a gaff sail with separate top sail.
A barque is like a "normal" ship rig, but the mizzen mast has fore and aft sails like on a schooner.

Navies generally stuck to square rigs like the Brig and Ship Rig. Square sails are generally faster in favorable winds. But less maneuverable, and in contrary winds may have to wait for weeks for the weather to change. They also require large crews to climb the rigging to set the sails. Very expensive for a merchant ship, but not a problem if you can just impress the crew or have extremely valuable cargo.

Fore and aft sails(schooner) are more maneuverable, and can sail into the wind much more easily, and don't require as large a crew to sail. But, are more difficult to sail and not as fast in favorable winds like a square rig would be. They require an experienced crew to sail well. Not something you would trust to impressed crew that has never sailed before. A barque is a compromise between the two extremes, and has the qualities of both to a degree.

The cutter is small ship. Most were pilot boats to bring the harbor pilot to ships to guide them in. A Naval Cutter would be an armed version for interdicting smugglers close to harbor.

The brig is the economy/budget version of a frigate. They lack the firepower of a frigate, and also the cargo space to carry enough food and water for long range cruising. But, they require a smaller crew, and with the invention of the carronade they could have the firepower of a small frigate.

The schooners were mostly fishing boats or cargo ships. The British tried using these, but found they were too under powered and dangerous to sail to be of use. For the most part these were private owners that fitted them with guns for privateering.

Like a said earlier. The names refer more to the rig than the ship itself. A full rigged ship like a frigate could be decommissioned, and sold to a private owner. The guns removed and re-rigged as a barque. Then spend the rest of its days hauling manufactured goods to the americas, and rum/sugar back to Liverpool.
Larger than/ More Cargo space/ Stronger in Combat are all generally the same (I think).
Cutter < Schooner < Brig < Barque
"Faster than", and "Easier to Navigate" I'm not so sure about.
 
The names of these ships refer more to the rig than the ship itself.
Well, I have read that a couple of times. :)
It simply does not help me to do proper some immersive balancing.
(So I was hoping for a good suggestion using my comparison system in the spoiler here.)

Cutter < Schooner < Brig < Barque
Hm ok, that is at least a start that I can work with. :thumbsup:
Now I just need to figure out where I put it in relation to the ships we already have. :think:

@community:
Anybody any suggestion where I could sort these ships into the list below?
Please add the new ships in red into this ordered list
  • Sloop
  • Caravel
  • Carrack
  • Fluyt
  • Merchantman
  • Brigantine aka "Schooner Brig"
  • East Indiaman
  • Galleon
  • Frigate
  • Ship of the Line
  • Man O' War
 
Now I just need to figure out where I put it in relation to the ships we already have. :think:

The cutter, brig, and schooners would all fall into the Sloop category (British). The French equivalent would be "corvette". With the British rating system these are sloop of war, frigate, ship of the line.

In my own mod I use the brig in the sloop role, and the schooner for privateers (or luggers for britian). The cutter is a separate unit that is weaker. But faster, cheaper, and with a bonus against pirates. The barque is a flavor unit. Just another merchant ship like the galleon, or east indiaman.
 
Id completely agree with MightyToad's classification. For game purposes Id place barque between merchantman and west Indiaman. With cargo type retool could be slated as two types fitting what we may lack, perhaps slave-barque and trade-barque. Or singularly as just one role to fill a gap.

Right now we have a carrack, MMan, and Brigantine with same cargo, only deviation is slight speed and combat difference. I know cargo overhaul will greatly help separate roles. Perhaps a Barque could give us a second class in the equivalent to 5 (current) cargo slots. Then I saw talk of splitting galleons into specialized types.

As far as easier handling, I don't know what metric is to be used for that in game, unless there's a hidden "likelihood of being becalmed" value I don't know about.


While cutter, Schooner, brig all roughly fall into the same role, perhaps we could use one (my thought is schooner) to specialize the current sloop role. Right now sloop is only combat ship as can take to the river, and it has its one slot. Maybe specialize "cutter" or "gunboat" to the same movement limits as coastal transports. Specialize sloop for military unit or supplies rapid transport, and schooner into civil transport or trade cargo, with high speed among all, and relative strength to each role.

Just my input, but naval history is a slight obsession for me.
 
As far as easier handling, ...
There are e.g. "Evasion Chance", Promotions e.g. for Winds and Winds, "Can it sail faster on "Coast" / "Ocean", "Can it enter Reefs" ...
(Especially with "Plains" - which added a ton of new Terrain Features on Water - the possibility for this have exploded.)

So it is possible to depict "Navigability" in WTP if you know the small details that it offers.
Most players usually do not care about such details, but I simply do when I create balancing.
 
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